EPT[G] ZvZ - 3 different builds - Page 3
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nerrr
Australia47 Posts
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
On November 30 2010 00:52 Snuggles wrote: I haven't lost a single game doing that =P. Like literally you can just make nothing but slings after 2 - 3 drones and overwhelm you opponent because they think you're going for a long macro game. And for the bastards that do a big roach rush, just putting down some spinecrawlers leaves em to scratch their asses. If you haven't lost any game doing that I really would like to know its build order  | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On November 30 2010 01:44 decaf wrote: If you haven't lost any game doing that I really would like to know its build order The build he's describing is 14 gas, 15 pool, 21 expand. Pull drones off gas at 100 and start ling speed. Pump pure ling, using the larva advantage you gain from your 2nd hatchery to eventually overwhelm your opponent. | ||
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
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Andre112
Canada52 Posts
 whether it's 1 base or 2 bases. If your opponent expands or put up 3+ spines when you go ling/bling, what's your response? | ||
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
When the opponent gets spines expand and/or drone hard. Any air-to-ground unit can be considered good against spines. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On November 30 2010 04:57 decaf wrote: Mutas should be easy to deal with, since the spire takes way longer to build than the hydralisk den. Hydras + Infestors own Mutas in a way Nukes can't even dream of. Really, fg the clumped up muta ball and send some hydras, they outrange the Mutas and won't take any damage. You may need several fgs. It of course comes all down to scouting. Some queen energy plus spores counter Mutas pretty well too. When the opponent gets spines expand and/or drone hard. Any air-to-ground unit can be considered good against spines. This is one way to approach it... Unless the other guy's dumb, though, he's not going to come anywhere near hydras or infestors, and will be able to expand freely with the map control he gains from the mutas. If you open banes and he walls in and starts teching, you need to transition into roach. If he goes muta, just attack his base around the time his spire finishes. Your army should vastly outnumber his. | ||
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kidcrash89
198 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
Anyways thanks, and hopefully this can help people with ZvZ a bit. A nice balance of 3 distinct builds to know. O yea would like to note, you can easily transition into mass queens + mass roach with the 3rd build. The Queens should be there in time to block the ramp from any blings (not sure if they will be ready in time for 10 pool bling or 11 pool bling...). Which isn't very standard you could say, but it is fun. But I do want to warn people that try this not too long before you push out. 6 Queens with however many Roaches you could pump out would be a good number, as it will be able to fend off any mutas they will have, and you will have about 10 Transfusions too. If you push out too late they may have infestors which will screw over your Queens or they may have gotten enough mutas to kill your 6 or so queens (they would need about 15 mutas if you tranfuse well and if you got +1/+1 before moving out). 15 Mutas is a lot of gas however so the main danger is just infestors. Another note about mass queen/roach is that although you don't need many queens to fend off Mutas during your push, you will definitely have closer to 10 queens if you are going for +1/+1, but it's just that you don't need that many queens and using those minerals on other things can be better (take 2 expansions when you push out, etc.) | ||
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Andre112
Canada52 Posts
On November 30 2010 05:17 MrBitter wrote: This is one way to approach it... Unless the other guy's dumb, though, he's not going to come anywhere near hydras or infestors, and will be able to expand freely with the map control he gains from the mutas. If you open banes and he walls in and starts teching, you need to transition into roach. If he goes muta, just attack his base around the time his spire finishes. Your army should vastly outnumber his. so before his spire is up, do you only make roaches (no drones) for that timing attack? do you go lair and get roach speed/burrow/+1 attack? | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
If you have about the same number of drones or more, then yes it will be safe to pump roaches and may be lings to kill him off. Him spending the gas on the lair/spire would surely hinder his roach production. So no you don't need to go lair and get those upgrades yourself... doing so will take too long unless if you were already planning to get them before you saw he was switching to mutas (and already have your Lair up). The timing will be tricky, so I would say just stick to plain Roaches (+1 attack optional) and attack a little before his Spire finishes. | ||
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nodq
Germany123 Posts
On November 28 2010 19:45 decaf wrote: Hello! This is decaf from the european servers; I'm an 800 points Zerg, but I could easily have 2k points (just for the record). First of all I'd like to say that I did NOT work these 3 builds out on my own. I got those 3 builds from a video and I decided to write them down, since many seem to struggle with ZvZ a lot. These builds were worked out by EGMachine and EGIdra, so all credit goes to them! (If you decide to watch the video skip to the 1h mark) 1.0 One Base Roach Opener Build Order: + Show Spoiler + 9 ovi 14 pool 14 gas 15 ovi 15 queen 17 Roach Warren + 6 Zerglings when pool finishes (4 lings on ramp, scout with 2) 19 drone 20 ovi 20 6 roaches 32 ovi 32 Lair, 2nd gas, evo chamber, drones (~2 drones for every 4 roaches) 42 lvl 1 range upgrade, overseer (for contaminate), roaches 50 roach speed, burrow . attack and expand when the 3 upgrades (attack, speed, burrow) are done . start a queen in the main when the expo is half done . lvl 2 range upgrade when expo done . 3rd and 4th gas, infestation pit (~1 minute after 2 range upgrade) . patho glands when the infestation pit is done . ~3 infestors when patho glands half done 1.1 How to play this build? Try to split up his army with fungal growths and attack the spilt up part of it. Burrow your damaged roaches. You don't need burrow movement since the opponent will have an overseer anyway. Watch our for Muta tech switches! 1.2 What maps is this build good on? Small maps favor this build since the opponent can't really punish you for moving out. Delta Quadrant, Steppes of War 2.0 Speedling into Baneling Build Order: + Show Spoiler + 9 ovi 14 gas 14 pool 15 queen, ling speed (100gas) -> rally to the middle of the map, pump lings (no more drones, 15 is enough) 20 Banelingsnest 19 lings 23 ovi 23 more lings sidemark: you can't really transition with this build. The only scenario a transition might be possible is if the opponent plays defensice ling/bling with a spine crawler, which should give you enough time. The opponent has a roach warren, what should I do?: . if the opp has a roach warren (scout with the first two lings) cancel the nest, pull drones off gas and pump drones ~30 double gas, evo chamber, roach warren . lvl1 range upgrade, roach speed, overseer, burrow . if the opp goes spire get some spores, if he goes heavy roach into spire you have enough time to get a decent amount of hydras . get an expansion when the 3 upgrades are done and follow up with infestors 2.1 How to play this build? This is essential: Never morph more than 2 lings into blings at a time (you wouldn't have much to defend for a short period of time). While the banelings morph set their rally points to his mineral line and completely forget about them. All you have to do is to micro your lings against his blings and let it up to the opponent to handle your blings. Don't forget to keep morphing banelings and let them run into his mineral line. Try to kill his incoming blings with your lings. Deselecting lings is the best way to do it imo. Also never attack one baneling with more than two lings. The math behind it: It takes 2 banelings to kill one baneling; if you don't attack his baneling with more than 2 lings you should get an eco advantage since 2 lings are 50 minerals and 1 bling is 50 minerals and 25 gas. 2.2 What maps is this build good on? I find this build to be pretty good on any map. This build is also very good against roach openers and FEs. My favorite out of these 3 builds. 3.0 Fast Expansion Build Order: + Show Spoiler + 15 hatch 15 pool (better than 14pool, since it wins and loses against the exact same builds) 15 ovi 17 2 queens, transfer 5 drones to the nat and put 2 spnes at your nat 19 drones 22 ovi 22 8 lings, block the ramp with both queens 26 2 more spines at nat, keep droning 40 double gas ~46 roach warren . 3rd hatch in main, Lair . queen back to main, evo chamber when roaches pop 3.1 How to play this build? Try to place your buildings (evo chamber, roach warren and spines) right - you should block the ramp with them. If you manage to fend off the first 2 attacks you should have such a huge eco advantage that it's already GG. Watch out for Muta tech switches! 3.2 What maps is this build good on? You know, maps where main and nat share one ramp. LT, meta.. 4. Any Replays? Just go ahead and watch the video I linked above. Also: In ZvZ you want to place your overlords along the path to your opponent. If he kills too many of your overlords with mutas get ovi speed. EGMachine also states that he doesn't drone-scout, since you never see anything that is worth seeing. He likes scouting with his first 2 lings. Thanks for sharing. But im pretty sure that you can not cancel the Banelingnest if you go scout with first lings, on some maps you will not reach the opponent base early enough to see if he builds/builded a roachwarren, at that point your Bnest will already be finished if you put it down at 20 supply. So i like this BO but to have a building which i do not use is kinda shitty. But the Roach opening seems very nice, too. You guys think it snot playable on Maps like scrap or Metalopolis? If Opponent sees your BO and goes fast Muta you could be pretty much fucked, right? So is a good reaction to mutas some spores or going Hydras before infestors? | ||
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kidcrash89
198 Posts
On November 30 2010 05:36 Andre112 wrote: so before his spire is up, do you only make roaches (no drones) for that timing attack? do you go lair and get roach speed/burrow/+1 attack? I wouldn't go for +1. If you're going to spend the gas you mindswell just get a Lair too IMO. I feel the 4 extra roaches would be a much better use of the gas if your trying to end it with a timing attack. | ||
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Phrencys
Canada270 Posts
On November 30 2010 06:07 kidcrash89 wrote: I wouldn't go for +1. If you're going to spend the gas you mindswell just get a Lair too IMO. I feel the 4 extra roaches would be a much better use of the gas if your trying to end it with a timing attack. Depends on what your opponent does. If he went speedlings/banelings transition into Mutas, +1 roaches will 2 shot lings instead of 3shotting them. The +1 will also help eventual hydras should the game not end with your push and you gotta deal with flying units. | ||
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kaos00
United States125 Posts
I have a question about some timings to challenge Hatch first. Does the Roach +1/Burrow/Speed push get crushed? And what about a +1 Ling timing push if you opened Gas/Pool? Does Hatch first hold vs it all? | ||
Moa
United States790 Posts
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kaos00
United States125 Posts
I have a question about some timings to challenge Hatch first. Does the Roach +1/Burrow/Speed push get crushed? And what about a +1 Ling timing push if you opened Gas/Pool? Does Hatch first hold vs it all? | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
Got the VODs uploading to Blip right now. ZvP with iNcontroL is up, and the Machine ones are chugging along right now. Should make for easier viewing for those of you who struggle with livestream, or just hate ads. | ||
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
@kaos00: I haven't really had much time in the last few days practicing these builds, so I'm not really sure. You may just try it out yourselfm, but the burrow, attack, speed push was designed not to get crushed, but to be as powerful as possible (for obvious reasons), if he has a decent amount of Mutas and you no AA, then yes, it probably will. | ||
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