Thanks so much for posting this! I've been looking for some ZvZ builds. I really suck at that match-up, and it seems like 80% of my matches lately have been ZvZ.

cHaNg-sTa

United States1058 Posts

November 29 2010 05:48 GMT

#26

This is wonderful. I've always just done 15hatch 14pool on the maps that are permissible, and then just baneling speedling all in on the other maps. This gives me a better idea of what to look for and techniques in micro. *thumbs up*

EDIT: It seems that 15hatch vs. 15hatch is the most complicated BO MU which is no surprise. I'm probably gonna do a lot of practice in this area.

Are there replays of these available? I'm interested to see Machine's POV for this.

AmaZing

Nepal299 Posts

November 29 2010 06:29 GMT

#27

On November 28 2010 20:32 Madkipz wrote:

Show nested quote +

anyone that has good drone micro can fend off a 6 pool

That means a very few people at dream hack xD
ACTION JESUS!!

but yea ty for the post. I personally freestyle like a noob when i spawn a zvz, i guess its time to make an effort to learn it

Cyber_Cheese

Australia3615 Posts

November 29 2010 06:31 GMT

#28

Awesome builds, thanks for writing them out
any chance you want to do that for ZvT and ZvP?

decaf

Austria1797 Posts

November 29 2010 09:40 GMT

#29

Hmm I haven't even thought about that, because I haven't seen his ZvT and ZvP castings. I'm not having any trouble with ZvT and ZvP right now, but I'm not sure, maybe I will, but at first I gotta watch those VoDs. I'll definitely think about it.

Btw, there already is a real great guide about ZvP. GSL time now..

mKw

Denmark33 Posts

November 29 2010 09:56 GMT

#30

Thanks for the write up. i had a vague idea about these 3 builds are viable builds in ZvZ, and as it was said in another Z strategy thread its all about scouting what they are gonna do of those 3, cause as soon as u do u can chose to mirror and just play better or change to something which deals with it very well.

Example: i played a ZvZ some1 went mass roaches on one base. scouted it as i started speed and just expanded and mass speedlings and raped. If hed gone baneling then id have been fucked but then u just gotta go roaches :D great rock paper scissors match up tbh until some1 get mutas hehe.

MrBitter

United States2940 Posts

November 29 2010 09:58 GMT

#31

o.O

Kudos for take'n the time to write this down. Glad peeps are learning from these VODs. Be sure to tune in for iNcontroL Tuesday night!

I'm so shameless with my plugs.

On November 29 2010 14:48 cHaNg-sTa wrote:
Are there replays of these available? I'm interested to see Machine's POV for this.

I very intentionally did not save any of the Machine reps from these sessions. He's already more or less told us exactly how we should approach each matchup... Piling reps on top of that, in my opinion, is a little bit more than I think we're entitled to.

All the info we need (and much more) is in the VODs.

Skully_eu

Netherlands6 Posts

November 29 2010 13:26 GMT

#32

I'm definatly going to practise these builds when I get home tonight. I think atm I loose 75% of my ZvZ matches, becouse I just do a kinda freestyle build in ZvZ and have no real plan actually.

kko

Germany7 Posts

November 29 2010 13:51 GMT

#33

I saw the ZvZ / ZvP Coaching and i got a question : how can i switch the Camera Position (during the Larva Inject from the Queens) so fast?

decaf

Austria1797 Posts

November 29 2010 13:57 GMT

#34

I don't know exactly what you mean, but I guess you're talking about hotkey-ing your queens. I personally use the hotkeys 5-8 for my queens, you know, 55,v,click; 66,v,click etc.. There's really no magic behind it.

teh_longinator

Canada725 Posts

November 29 2010 14:01 GMT

#35

On November 29 2010 22:26 Skully_eu wrote:
I'm definatly going to practise these builds when I get home tonight. I think atm I loose 75% of my ZvZ matches, becouse I just do a kinda freestyle build in ZvZ and have no real plan actually.

I'd love to be able to go home and work on these three builds, but I don't get to play until at least Wednesday -_-... I hate school!

On an actual note, this is an awesome post, and a great deal of help to us Zergs who have problems actually winning in a ZvZ... as it stands, I either use Dimaga's Mass-ling build, or just Mass Roach and hope for the best. I haven't won a game in sooooo long

sylverfyre

United States8298 Posts

November 29 2010 14:02 GMT

#36

On November 28 2010 22:02 ktimekiller wrote:
I certainly like the roach and bling, but the expand confuses me

How do you survive with 0 lings with 15 hatch 15 pool until 20+ food? any 12-14 pool that pops with 6 lings at once will likely insta kill you

By scouting his base (so that you know you need to not spend larva on drones while your pool is finishing) + kiting the lings until yours are out. You have more larva than he does, so once your pool is done (14 pool vs 14 hatch, your pool will finish shortly after he arrives at your base.) , he can't outproduce you on lings, and you can afford to lose a few drones in pushing him out.

pheno

Germany33 Posts

November 29 2010 14:09 GMT

#37

A better or equal player will always punish a fast expanding opponent in a ZvZ, just to have it mentioned. And fending off 6 pools in a ZvZ shouldn't be a problem from about 1000+ Platinum on. Nevertheless, the builds are solid (but standard) and the explanation is pretty good.

AnodyneSea

Jamaica757 Posts

November 29 2010 14:43 GMT

#38

Thanks for this, the video was posted before but I forgot to watch it

Floydian

United Kingdom374 Posts

November 29 2010 15:29 GMT

#39

Is the video not loading for anyone else? It just loads forever

Thanks a lot for this post, I always sigh when I get another z on my loading screen, as it's pretty much a guaranteed loss for me. I really just don't seem to get it.

Snuggles

United States1865 Posts

November 29 2010 15:52 GMT

#40

On November 28 2010 21:38 Sclol wrote:
i play sling only with a more or less fast +1 and expand at ~20 and i'm doing really well... i can fend off ling bling and roach and roach baneling

I haven't lost a single game doing that =P. Like literally you can just make nothing but slings after 2 - 3 drones and overwhelm you opponent because they think you're going for a long macro game. And for the bastards that do a big roach rush, just putting down some spinecrawlers leaves em to scratch their asses.

Either that or make roaches too, and don't stop making roaches. Because people just love to send an endless stream of units to your base hoping to break you because naturally when you go to expand you want to make drones. It seriously becomes a 1 saturated base vs 1 saturate base + auxiliary hatch war, so dumb =_=. But it feels good when you can see your opponent getting flustered and pulling back to set up his own hatch, and just losing the game.