EPT[G] ZvZ - 3 different builds - Page 5
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
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contraSol
United States185 Posts
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winedz
United States92 Posts
Well, except if what he meant is to open with speedlings, then scout, if there is roach warren, then drone up, and do the delayed roach play, then it make sense. (just like the tutorial video in blistering sands) any views on this? | ||
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Carras
Argentina860 Posts
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Conrose
437 Posts
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Conrose
437 Posts
On December 22 2010 15:22 Carras wrote: Hi, i been using the speedling bling build..people say its good against roache openings , yet i always loose to these.. how does this work? Catch Roaches in the open with your Speedlings and micro a few banelings at a time against Speedlings and other baneling packs that they may have in support of their roaches. Early game, Speedlings have the advantage over roaches in the open and Roaches rape Lings in the chokes. | ||
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winedz
United States92 Posts
On December 22 2010 15:23 Conrose wrote: I only ever get enough Roaches to block off my own ramp 3 deep, I've found that that trying to push out into the open against Ling Bling usually just results in my Roaches being lost to a ling surround. Beyond that, it's a micro/macro war for the first to Critical Mass Mutas without falling far enough behind in Ling/Bling to lose. First to Mutas usually wins by sniping the Banelings Nest and/or Hydra Den... Either/or works just fine since ling/bling will clean up any surviving hydras without having to fear banelings blowing them up while sniping the hydra den gives you free reign over the Zerg Player's base. Normally, I'll scout out with lings to check his lings count, his tech, his saturation, etc. If somehow it looks like he is massing lings, I won't go out to open area until I have "enough" roaches (feeling based). Once you have enough roaches, preferably with those upgrades (I prefer +1 armor vs lings), then you have the map control. Always stick your roaches together like a mob, so surrounding will be less effective. Keep an eye on muta tech switch though, as during my roach spamming (before I have "enough" roaches), I'm open to any kind of muta harass. | ||
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AnAngryDingo
United States223 Posts
On December 22 2010 15:42 winedz wrote: Normally, I'll scout out with lings to check his lings count, his tech, his saturation, etc. If somehow it looks like he is massing lings, I won't go out to open area until I have "enough" roaches (feeling based). Once you have enough roaches, preferably with those upgrades (I prefer +1 armor vs lings), then you have the map control. Always stick your roaches together like a mob, so surrounding will be less effective. Keep an eye on muta tech switch though, as during my roach spamming (before I have "enough" roaches), I'm open to any kind of muta harass. umm, you do know that +1 attack allows roaches to 2 shot lings instead of 3 shot, it makes a HUGE difference. think how badly +1 attack zealots beat unupgraded lings, then imagine if they also had 4 range. | ||
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winedz
United States92 Posts
On December 22 2010 15:49 AnAngryDingo wrote: umm, you do know that +1 attack allows roaches to 2 shot lings instead of 3 shot, it makes a HUGE difference. think how badly +1 attack zealots beat unupgraded lings, then imagine if they also had 4 range. Oh, i didn't know it's 2 shots, thanks for info man | ||
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Conrose
437 Posts
On December 22 2010 15:42 winedz wrote: Normally, I'll scout out with lings to check his lings count, his tech, his saturation, etc. If somehow it looks like he is massing lings, I won't go out to open area until I have "enough" roaches (feeling based). Once you have enough roaches, preferably with those upgrades (I prefer +1 armor vs lings), then you have the map control. Always stick your roaches together like a mob, so surrounding will be less effective. Keep an eye on muta tech switch though, as during my roach spamming (before I have "enough" roaches), I'm open to any kind of muta harass. That's the very important thing to keep in mind about a player massing lings... you need to find out what how much gas income he has and where it's going to. If he Slinging without Blings, the alarms should be going off. The dangers become Burrow Roaches, Landmines, and of course the Mutalisks. A successful Landmin explosion with Blings really shifts the fight in Ling's favor while Burrow Roaches can harass quite effectively (I've won matches purely on unburrowing Roaches after setting them up to block any escape by workers). Mutas really explains itself and unless you have quick access to AA, you pretty much have to All in with your current roach force and basically base race them or try to force their Mutas to pull back long enough to get your AA. And if he splits his Mutas in two groups, one to hunt down hydra tech while the other destroys your Roach force, you are pretty screwed. But in your typical ZvZ, you'll have a hard time getting to that critical mass of Roaches without seriously endangering yourself or opening the door to the opponent securing an expansion. I've had one match where both myself and my opponent at most got 14 Drones before the micro back and forth very effectively stopped droning on both sides until we both ended up getting a very successful bling roll on the worker line putting us both back to 6 Drones per side with both queens dead. | ||
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winedz
United States92 Posts
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waffling1
599 Posts
it's not possible to get 6 lings when pool finishes and make drone on 19. | ||
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waffling1
599 Posts
u also dont make enough drones. sup with that? 9 ovi 14 pool 14 gas 15 ovi 15 queen 17 Roach Warren + 6 Zerglings when pool finishes (4 lings on ramp, scout with 2) 19 drone so ur saying 2 pairs of lings at 17food, 1 drone at 19food, and mae the last pair of lings by waiting for that larvae. u dont have larvae to do it that way. is it super important that the drone is on 19, i.e. ling ling drone ling? You should really say 16 ling 17 ling 18 drone 19 ling 20 ovi 20 6 roaches 32 ovi if ur gonna get lair, evo, gas, why get hte overlord first???? 32 Lair, 2nd gas, evo chamber, drones (~2 drones for every 4 roaches) u dont say "at 32 food, get a bunch of shit. what's listed there is so much fucking money and doesn't happen at one time. there's also too much stuff there to know which one u should make first. Timing wise, if u make the lair first, the evo chamber comes later, and the timings deviate. 2 drones and 4 roaches? when do u make those? and why would you say "2 drones for every 4 roaches" when it's exactly 2 drones and 4 roaches for 10 supply to go from 32->42 supply? ultra bad wording. 42 lvl 1 range upgrade, overseer (for contaminate), roaches now really, you shouldn't be making the evo chamber until ur gonna click the upgrade right away. range upg takes 60 more time than burrow or speed, so u should try to time those upgrdes so they come 60 seconds after you click range upg. So, u dont want to go lair until u can click speed and burrow upg. all those constraints make it impossible to do things as this build says. u get around 41 food by the time u click burrow and speed. it's also set way back if u make 4 roaches if u actually make more roaches to get to 50 food, then ur low on drones and that's so much time. u shoudl really get minimal roaches, get those upgrades early or asap, and drone up. this is just pure impossible and so poor. 50 roach speed, burrow um way late, or something is wrong in the stated BO. during this whole process, no drones are made, and u have very few. a build order is an optimization. this is very very not optimal. please point to the exact replay this is done. the whole archive is not labeled properly. to see this build. again fail. . attack and expand when the 3 upgrades (attack, speed, burrow) are done . start a queen in the main when the expo is half done . lvl 2 range upgrade when expo done . 3rd and 4th gas, infestation pit (~1 minute after 2 range upgrade) . patho glands when the infestation pit is done . ~3 infestors when patho glands half done | ||
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waffling1
599 Posts
in the video, he made queen and roach den at same time. u want to make roach den at 35/50 queen so that den pops when first larvae pops. that explains why 19 drone is so ridiculous. he was behind in larvae as well. generally behidn in time. u also got it compeltely wrong after the lair. in the video he kept droning. he didn't make 2 drones and 4 roaches. no wonder. | ||
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telfire
United States415 Posts
On November 28 2010 20:32 Madkipz wrote: anyone that has good drone micro can fend off a 6 pool Can you perhaps point me to a high level VoD of someone fending off a 6 pool in ZvZ with a late pool? I can't really bring myself to believe this statement without VoD proof, as it would seem you just don't have enough drones to kill the lings AND the crawler in time, AND keeping some kind of drone advantage. If it's possible I'd love to see it. | ||
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Moriarity
United States91 Posts
On November 28 2010 21:38 Sclol wrote: i play sling only with a more or less fast +1 and expand at ~20 and i'm doing really well... i can fend off ling bling and roach and roach baneling This mostly. I never see a reason to get blings or roaches in the early game since with good micro you should be able to hold an expo and get +1 which helps make them more effective in mid-game armies. | ||
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waffling1
599 Posts
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/1_Base_Roach_Upgrade#Basic_Build_Order + Show Spoiler + * 9 Overlord (don't scout when intending to 1 base pool, use lings) * 14 Pool * 14 Extractor * 15 Overlord * 15 Queen * 3 pairs of Lings * Drone * Roach Warren @ 35/50 Queen * Drone * Overlord * 6 Roaches @ simultaneous Larvae, Warren, Overlord (defend in double layer of 3 at ramp for maximum walling) * Extractor [2] * Evolution chamber * Lair@ 15/35 Evolution Chamber * Drone Creep tumor now; you will have excess Larvae * Level 1 Range Attack @ 20/80 Lair * 2 Drones * Overlord * Roach Speed and Burrow @ Lair completion (3 drones off one Extractor * 2 Drones (to minerals to make 16 drones on 8 mineral patches) * 3 Drones rallied to Extractor * Overlord * 4 roach * Overlord * 2 Roach * Expo Hatchery and attack (with 12 Roaches) @ 3 upgrades (attack, speed, burrow) completion * Queen @ 50/100 Hatch - Can branch into Infestor play | ||
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charlie420247
United States692 Posts
On November 29 2010 00:39 Sadform wrote: It doesn't. You scout with your first two lings. If you scout roach warren you cancel the nest and build a warren yourself. And carry on with the roach strat. and this is exactly what machine said he does in his little zvz guide video. =D ling bling is still standard, you just cancel the nest if you scout roach warren. | ||
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marscapwn
United States20 Posts
If the build suggests you cancel the nest when you scout a roach warren why not just go ling then roach? What builds is the speedling/baneling build supposed to be strong against that the ling/roach build cannot address? Is it speedling + fast expand or is there some other reason one goes speedling/baneling? Thanks to anyone that answers this question for me. | ||
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Chinesewonder
Canada354 Posts
On January 14 2011 14:35 waffling1 wrote: here is the much more refined, intended 1 base roach openner BO http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/1_Base_Roach_Upgrade#Basic_Build_Order + Show Spoiler + * 9 Overlord (don't scout when intending to 1 base pool, use lings) * 14 Pool * 14 Extractor * 15 Overlord * 15 Queen * 3 pairs of Lings * Drone * Roach Warren @ 35/50 Queen * Drone * Overlord * 6 Roaches @ simultaneous Larvae, Warren, Overlord (defend in double layer of 3 at ramp for maximum walling) * Extractor [2] * Evolution chamber * Lair@ 15/35 Evolution Chamber * Drone Creep tumor now; you will have excess Larvae * Level 1 Range Attack @ 20/80 Lair * 2 Drones * Overlord * Roach Speed and Burrow @ Lair completion (3 drones off one Extractor * 2 Drones (to minerals to make 16 drones on 8 mineral patches) * 3 Drones rallied to Extractor * Overlord * 4 roach * Overlord * 2 Roach * Expo Hatchery and attack (with 12 Roaches) @ 3 upgrades (attack, speed, burrow) completion * Queen @ 50/100 Hatch - Can branch into Infestor play Can you clarify what it means by 6 roaches @ simultaneous larvae, warren, overlord? Does this mean that once the inject finishes you build 6? and what does the warren mean? | ||
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