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Hello!
This is decaf from the european servers; I'm an 800 points Zerg, but I could easily have 2k points (just for the record).
First of all I'd like to say that I did NOT work these 3 builds out on my own. I got those 3 builds from a video and I decided to write them down, since many seem to struggle with ZvZ a lot. These builds were worked out by EGMachine and EGIdra, so all credit goes to them! (If you decide to watch the video skip to the 1h mark)
1.0 One Base Roach Opener
Build Order:
+ Show Spoiler +
9 ovi
14 pool
14 gas
15 ovi
15 queen
17 Roach Warren + 6 Zerglings when pool finishes (4 lings on ramp, scout with 2)
19 drone
20 ovi
20 6 roaches
32 ovi
32 Lair, 2nd gas, evo chamber, drones (~2 drones for every 4 roaches)
42 lvl 1 range upgrade, overseer (for contaminate), roaches
50 roach speed, burrow
. attack and expand when the 3 upgrades (attack, speed, burrow) are done
. start a queen in the main when the expo is half done
. lvl 2 range upgrade when expo done
. 3rd and 4th gas, infestation pit (~1 minute after 2 range upgrade)
. patho glands when the infestation pit is done
. ~3 infestors when patho glands half done
1.1 How to play this build?
Try to split up his army with fungal growths and attack the spilt up part of it. Burrow your damaged roaches. You don't need burrow movement since the opponent will have an overseer anyway. Watch our for Muta tech switches!
1.2 What maps is this build good on?
Small maps favor this build since the opponent can't really punish you for moving out. Delta Quadrant, Steppes of War
2.0 Speedling into Baneling
Build Order:
+ Show Spoiler +
9 ovi
14 gas
14 pool
15 queen, ling speed (100gas) -> rally to the middle of the map, pump lings (no more drones, 15 is enough)
20 Banelingsnest
19 lings
23 ovi
23 more lings
sidemark: you can't really transition with this build. The only scenario a transition might be possible is if the opponent plays defensice ling/bling with a spine crawler, which should give you enough time.
The opponent has a roach warren, what should I do?:
. if the opp has a roach warren (scout with the first two lings) cancel the nest, pull drones off gas and pump drones
~30 double gas, evo chamber, roach warren
. lvl1 range upgrade, roach speed, overseer, burrow
. if the opp goes spire get some spores, if he goes heavy roach into spire you have enough time to get a decent amount of hydras
. get an expansion when the 3 upgrades are done and follow up with infestors
2.1 How to play this build?
This is essential: Never morph more than 2 lings into blings at a time (you wouldn't have much to defend for a short period of time). While the banelings morph set their rally points to his mineral line and completely forget about them. All you have to do is to micro your lings against his blings and let it up to the opponent to handle your blings.
Don't forget to keep morphing banelings and let them run into his mineral line. Try to kill his incoming blings with your lings. Deselecting lings is the best way to do it imo. Also never attack one baneling with more than two lings. The math behind it: It takes 2 banelings to kill one baneling; if you don't attack his baneling with more than 2 lings you should get an eco advantage since 2 lings are 50 minerals and 1 bling is 50 minerals and 25 gas.
2.2 What maps is this build good on?
I find this build to be pretty good on any map. This build is also very good against roach openers and FEs. My favorite out of these 3 builds.
3.0 Fast Expansion
Build Order:
+ Show Spoiler +
15 hatch
15 pool (better than 14pool, since it wins and loses against the exact same builds)
15 ovi
17 2 queens, transfer 5 drones to the nat and put 2 spnes at your nat
19 drones
22 ovi
22 8 lings, block the ramp with both queens
26 2 more spines at nat, keep droning
40 double gas
~46 roach warren
. 3rd hatch in main, Lair
. queen back to main, evo chamber when roaches pop
3.1 How to play this build?
Try to place your buildings (evo chamber, roach warren and spines) right - you should block the ramp with them. If you manage to fend off the first 2 attacks you should have such a huge eco advantage that it's already GG. Watch out for Muta tech switches!
3.2 What maps is this build good on?
You know, maps where main and nat share one ramp. LT, meta..
4. Any Replays?
Just go ahead and watch the video I linked above.
Here is also a link with many VoDs that might help you, check them out:
http://mrbitter.blip.tv/posts?view=archive&nsfw=dc
Also: In ZvZ you want to place your overlords along the path to your opponent. If he kills too many of your overlords with mutas get ovi speed. EGMachine also states that he doesn't drone-scout, since you never see anything that is worth seeing. He likes scouting with his first 2 lings.
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Can any of these fend off a 6 pool?
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I havnt looked at the video but I'm guessing they are from coaching by machine. Good builds anyways.
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On November 28 2010 20:09 Maicro wrote:
Can any of these fend off a 6 pool?
anyone that has good drone micro can fend off a 6 pool
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i play sling only with a more or less fast +1 and expand at ~20 and i'm doing really well... i can fend off ling bling and roach and roach baneling
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I certainly like the roach and bling, but the expand confuses me
How do you survive with 0 lings with 15 hatch 15 pool until 20+ food? any 12-14 pool that pops with 6 lings at once will likely insta kill you
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I personally like the roach opener build the most, though I don't usually get the infestor upgrade. But it's something to consider for sure. The roach opener build is especially good on maps with small ramps since you can pretty much annul any random mass ling/baneling play by blocking the ramp.
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On November 28 2010 22:02 ktimekiller wrote:
I certainly like the roach and bling, but the expand confuses me
How do you survive with 0 lings with 15 hatch 15 pool until 20+ food? any 12-14 pool that pops with 6 lings at once will likely insta kill you
Unless he starts close to you (at which point you should probably go for another tactic) the 6 lings won't kill anything till your 6 lings pop out, just kite the lings.
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Thx, I need to stop freestyling. 
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Most of your questions will be answered in the linked video I think, since it also provides nice replays and live casting from EGMachine.
ZvZ was one hell of a matchup for me, but hey, I just played 2 ZvZs against 1900s and ended up winning using the 2nd strategy. The first one was some 9 pool cheese on kulas and the second one was a fe on kulas. I beat both of em so I think this strategy (speedling into baneling) is a really good one.
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On November 28 2010 22:02 ktimekiller wrote:
I certainly like the roach and bling, but the expand confuses me
How do you survive with 0 lings with 15 hatch 15 pool until 20+ food? any 12-14 pool that pops with 6 lings at once will likely insta kill you
With good drone micro you should be able to easily deal with the initial 6 lings. 2 Spines at the nat will soften them up as well.
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On November 28 2010 22:02 ktimekiller wrote:
I certainly like the roach and bling, but the expand confuses me
How do you survive with 0 lings with 15 hatch 15 pool until 20+ food? any 12-14 pool that pops with 6 lings at once will likely insta kill you
You get two fast queens and block the ramp while you start an absurd amount of spinecrawlers.
Only works on maps like lost temple and shakuras plateu.
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I really like the roach opener. I never really pay attenttion to the spawning pool timings etc. as i always put it down 1 food later than my opponent(i scout with 9th drone). I like to treat zvz just like any other matchup; react to what my opponent does and no the other way around, however 90% of my matches end up with lategame major roach force, with a line of hydras behind them and some infestors.
Really there is no other combination of units that work in this matchup, i feel that if you tech to ultras or broodlords you will be crushed before you get there and if you try to harrass with mutas, all it takes is one good fungal growth and they will all die to reinforcing hydras. It's so common that my opponents try to go heavy mutas after speedling baneling opening only to lose them first try to 2 infestors and a couple of hydras. I still need to work on my early game timings, as i sometimes lose to speedling / roach since speedlings seem to soak up alot of damage from my roaches and i'm still little leery of taking my first expansion if i see my opponent go heavy on speedlings.
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2.0 = fail against higher level players..
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On November 28 2010 23:50 mansnicks wrote:
2.0 = fail against higher level players..
Why?
Machine said that it's his/idra's standard build.
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On November 28 2010 23:50 mansnicks wrote:
2.0 = fail against higher level players..
It doesn't. You scout with your first two lings. If you scout roach warren you cancel the nest and build a warren yourself. And carry on with the roach strat.
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The speedling into baneling build ist not a fail agianst higher level players. EGMachine said that he uses that build 85% of the time or so.
Each of these builds is very strong if you manage to pull it off. It all goes down to scouting; the build order for the sling into bling even offers a solution for an opponent going roaches.
ZvZ ist still my worst matchup, but now I know how to handle stuff. I was pretty much in the dark, it seemed like no matter what I did, I still would lose 80% of my ZvZs. This is meant to be a guide to help clueless player. Pros ain't gonna hear something new..
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Just today I've had GREAT luck with the speedling/baneling build. Loving it. The tips in the video on how to micro banelings are great. I'm only high platinum but needed some simple builds to try against zerg.
There were even some games where I did damage to my opponent, but had to stop the ling/baneling when he got enough roaches and/or spines to stop it. At that point I transitioned to roach/hydra and won 2/3 of those (One I lost I lost due to other problems, not the build for sure... again I'm only high platinum).
I also had two games where I scouted an early roach warren and canceled my baneling nest. I won one of those and again lost due to other reasons on the other
As someone not so great, and someone who was having trouble with zvz (it's like 66% of my games now!) these builds and especially the video were a great help!
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On November 28 2010 20:09 Maicro wrote:
Can any of these fend off a 6 pool?
Lol no build can/cannot fend off 6 pools, nothing gets out that early...
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On November 28 2010 20:09 Maicro wrote:
Can any of these fend off a 6 pool?
Maps such as steppes of war is crucial with 6 pools
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sweet, now if you could do the z v p and z v t vods too that would be awesome
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On November 29 2010 11:26 OrcaMOrciM wrote:
sweet, now if you could do the z v p and z v t vods too that would be awesome
Look through MrBitter's other VoD's on UStream. He has a PvT and PvP with Machine up there as well as some lessons with InControl. All excellent.
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Thanks for this, ive been having problems with my ZvZ lately.
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Thanks so much for posting this! I've been looking for some ZvZ builds. I really suck at that match-up, and it seems like 80% of my matches lately have been ZvZ.
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This is wonderful. I've always just done 15hatch 14pool on the maps that are permissible, and then just baneling speedling all in on the other maps. This gives me a better idea of what to look for and techniques in micro. *thumbs up*
EDIT: It seems that 15hatch vs. 15hatch is the most complicated BO MU which is no surprise. I'm probably gonna do a lot of practice in this area.
Are there replays of these available? I'm interested to see Machine's POV for this.
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On November 28 2010 20:32 Madkipz wrote:anyone that has good drone micro can fend off a 6 pool
That means a very few people at dream hack xD
ACTION JESUS!!
but yea ty for the post. I personally freestyle like a noob when i spawn a zvz, i guess its time to make an effort to learn it 
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Awesome builds, thanks for writing them out
any chance you want to do that for ZvT and ZvP?
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Hmm I haven't even thought about that, because I haven't seen his ZvT and ZvP castings. I'm not having any trouble with ZvT and ZvP right now, but I'm not sure, maybe I will, but at first I gotta watch those VoDs. I'll definitely think about it.
Btw, there already is a real great guide about ZvP. GSL time now..
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Thanks for the write up. i had a vague idea about these 3 builds are viable builds in ZvZ, and as it was said in another Z strategy thread its all about scouting what they are gonna do of those 3, cause as soon as u do u can chose to mirror and just play better or change to something which deals with it very well.
Example: i played a ZvZ some1 went mass roaches on one base. scouted it as i started speed and just expanded and mass speedlings and raped. If hed gone baneling then id have been fucked but then u just gotta go roaches :D great rock paper scissors match up tbh until some1 get mutas hehe.
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o.O
Kudos for take'n the time to write this down. Glad peeps are learning from these VODs. Be sure to tune in for iNcontroL Tuesday night!
I'm so shameless with my plugs.
On November 29 2010 14:48 cHaNg-sTa wrote:
Are there replays of these available? I'm interested to see Machine's POV for this.
I very intentionally did not save any of the Machine reps from these sessions. He's already more or less told us exactly how we should approach each matchup... Piling reps on top of that, in my opinion, is a little bit more than I think we're entitled to.
All the info we need (and much more) is in the VODs.
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I'm definatly going to practise these builds when I get home tonight. I think atm I loose 75% of my ZvZ matches, becouse I just do a kinda freestyle build in ZvZ and have no real plan actually.
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I saw the ZvZ / ZvP Coaching and i got a question : how can i switch the Camera Position (during the Larva Inject from the Queens) so fast?
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I don't know exactly what you mean, but I guess you're talking about hotkey-ing your queens. I personally use the hotkeys 5-8 for my queens, you know, 55,v,click; 66,v,click etc.. There's really no magic behind it.
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On November 29 2010 22:26 Skully_eu wrote:
I'm definatly going to practise these builds when I get home tonight. I think atm I loose 75% of my ZvZ matches, becouse I just do a kinda freestyle build in ZvZ and have no real plan actually.
I'd love to be able to go home and work on these three builds, but I don't get to play until at least Wednesday -_-... I hate school!
On an actual note, this is an awesome post, and a great deal of help to us Zergs who have problems actually winning in a ZvZ... as it stands, I either use Dimaga's Mass-ling build, or just Mass Roach and hope for the best. I haven't won a game in sooooo long 
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On November 28 2010 22:02 ktimekiller wrote:
I certainly like the roach and bling, but the expand confuses me
How do you survive with 0 lings with 15 hatch 15 pool until 20+ food? any 12-14 pool that pops with 6 lings at once will likely insta kill you
By scouting his base (so that you know you need to not spend larva on drones while your pool is finishing) + kiting the lings until yours are out. You have more larva than he does, so once your pool is done (14 pool vs 14 hatch, your pool will finish shortly after he arrives at your base.) , he can't outproduce you on lings, and you can afford to lose a few drones in pushing him out.
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A better or equal player will always punish a fast expanding opponent in a ZvZ, just to have it mentioned. And fending off 6 pools in a ZvZ shouldn't be a problem from about 1000+ Platinum on. Nevertheless, the builds are solid (but standard) and the explanation is pretty good.
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Thanks for this, the video was posted before but I forgot to watch it
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Is the video not loading for anyone else? It just loads forever
Thanks a lot for this post, I always sigh when I get another z on my loading screen, as it's pretty much a guaranteed loss for me. I really just don't seem to get it.
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On November 28 2010 21:38 Sclol wrote:
i play sling only with a more or less fast +1 and expand at ~20 and i'm doing really well... i can fend off ling bling and roach and roach baneling
I haven't lost a single game doing that =P. Like literally you can just make nothing but slings after 2 - 3 drones and overwhelm you opponent because they think you're going for a long macro game. And for the bastards that do a big roach rush, just putting down some spinecrawlers leaves em to scratch their asses.
Either that or make roaches too, and don't stop making roaches. Because people just love to send an endless stream of units to your base hoping to break you because naturally when you go to expand you want to make drones. It seriously becomes a 1 saturated base vs 1 saturate base + auxiliary hatch war, so dumb =_=. But it feels good when you can see your opponent getting flustered and pulling back to set up his own hatch, and just losing the game.
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I've been using that roach play in most maps (except scrap station/blistern sands) and I can say it works amazingly - and often games get to progress on to a macro style play with is the most fun way to play Z v Z IMO
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On November 30 2010 00:52 Snuggles wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2010 21:38 Sclol wrote:
i play sling only with a more or less fast +1 and expand at ~20 and i'm doing really well... i can fend off ling bling and roach and roach baneling I haven't lost a single game doing that =P. Like literally you can just make nothing but slings after 2 - 3 drones and overwhelm you opponent because they think you're going for a long macro game. And for the bastards that do a big roach rush, just putting down some spinecrawlers leaves em to scratch their asses.
If you haven't lost any game doing that I really would like to know its build order
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On November 30 2010 01:44 decaf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 00:52 Snuggles wrote:On November 28 2010 21:38 Sclol wrote:
i play sling only with a more or less fast +1 and expand at ~20 and i'm doing really well... i can fend off ling bling and roach and roach baneling I haven't lost a single game doing that =P. Like literally you can just make nothing but slings after 2 - 3 drones and overwhelm you opponent because they think you're going for a long macro game. And for the bastards that do a big roach rush, just putting down some spinecrawlers leaves em to scratch their asses. If you haven't lost any game doing that I really would like to know its build order
The build he's describing is 14 gas, 15 pool, 21 expand.
Pull drones off gas at 100 and start ling speed.
Pump pure ling, using the larva advantage you gain from your 2nd hatchery to eventually overwhelm your opponent.
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I see, when do I start pumping the lings with this build, when the pool is up?
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Yep. You'll make a grand total of 16 drones, and no more.
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I feel so stupid cuz I always die to mutas
whether it's 1 base or 2 bases.
If your opponent expands or put up 3+ spines when you go ling/bling, what's your response?
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Mutas should be easy to deal with, since the spire takes way longer to build than the hydralisk den. Hydras + Infestors own Mutas in a way Nukes can't even dream of. Really, fg the clumped up muta ball and send some hydras, they outrange the Mutas and won't take any damage. You may need several fgs. It of course comes all down to scouting. Some queen energy plus spores counter Mutas pretty well too.
When the opponent gets spines expand and/or drone hard. Any air-to-ground unit can be considered good against spines.
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On November 30 2010 04:57 decaf wrote:
Mutas should be easy to deal with, since the spire takes way longer to build than the hydralisk den. Hydras + Infestors own Mutas in a way Nukes can't even dream of. Really, fg the clumped up muta ball and send some hydras, they outrange the Mutas and won't take any damage. You may need several fgs. It of course comes all down to scouting. Some queen energy plus spores counter Mutas pretty well too.
When the opponent gets spines expand and/or drone hard. Any air-to-ground unit can be considered good against spines.
This is one way to approach it...
Unless the other guy's dumb, though, he's not going to come anywhere near hydras or infestors, and will be able to expand freely with the map control he gains from the mutas.
If you open banes and he walls in and starts teching, you need to transition into roach. If he goes muta, just attack his base around the time his spire finishes. Your army should vastly outnumber his.
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The best way to play speedling vs. roaches is to camp your lings outside his base and counter if he moves out. Let's you keep map control while you expand/tech up. I personally like going speedling into Hydra/Roach/Infestor with late game Ultras if it goes that long. Hydra/Ling is very strong vs a medium number of roaches
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Good builds although I wouldn't credit them for "discovering" these builds. The basic idea for these builds have been around for a long time, and it's not likely Machine and Idra were the first ever to use these and almost impossible for no one to have used something very similar. But if they "tested" these specific builds out and found that they were good to them, then it would be appropriate to credit them for their claims that these builds are good. I know you didn't say discover explicitly but the way you credit seems to suggest this.
Anyways thanks, and hopefully this can help people with ZvZ a bit. A nice balance of 3 distinct builds to know.
O yea would like to note, you can easily transition into mass queens + mass roach with the 3rd build. The Queens should be there in time to block the ramp from any blings (not sure if they will be ready in time for 10 pool bling or 11 pool bling...). Which isn't very standard you could say, but it is fun. But I do want to warn people that try this not too long before you push out. 6 Queens with however many Roaches you could pump out would be a good number, as it will be able to fend off any mutas they will have, and you will have about 10 Transfusions too. If you push out too late they may have infestors which will screw over your Queens or they may have gotten enough mutas to kill your 6 or so queens (they would need about 15 mutas if you tranfuse well and if you got +1/+1 before moving out). 15 Mutas is a lot of gas however so the main danger is just infestors.
Another note about mass queen/roach is that although you don't need many queens to fend off Mutas during your push, you will definitely have closer to 10 queens if you are going for +1/+1, but it's just that you don't need that many queens and using those minerals on other things can be better (take 2 expansions when you push out, etc.)
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On November 30 2010 05:17 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 04:57 decaf wrote:
Mutas should be easy to deal with, since the spire takes way longer to build than the hydralisk den. Hydras + Infestors own Mutas in a way Nukes can't even dream of. Really, fg the clumped up muta ball and send some hydras, they outrange the Mutas and won't take any damage. You may need several fgs. It of course comes all down to scouting. Some queen energy plus spores counter Mutas pretty well too.
When the opponent gets spines expand and/or drone hard. Any air-to-ground unit can be considered good against spines. This is one way to approach it... Unless the other guy's dumb, though, he's not going to come anywhere near hydras or infestors, and will be able to expand freely with the map control he gains from the mutas. If you open banes and he walls in and starts teching, you need to transition into roach. If he goes muta, just attack his base around the time his spire finishes. Your army should vastly outnumber his.
so before his spire is up, do you only make roaches (no drones) for that timing attack?
do you go lair and get roach speed/burrow/+1 attack?
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@Andre112
If you have about the same number of drones or more, then yes it will be safe to pump roaches and may be lings to kill him off. Him spending the gas on the lair/spire would surely hinder his roach production.
So no you don't need to go lair and get those upgrades yourself... doing so will take too long unless if you were already planning to get them before you saw he was switching to mutas (and already have your Lair up). The timing will be tricky, so I would say just stick to plain Roaches (+1 attack optional) and attack a little before his Spire finishes.
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On November 28 2010 19:45 decaf wrote:Hello! This is decaf from the european servers; I'm an 800 points Zerg, but I could easily have 2k points (just for the record). First of all I'd like to say that I did NOT work these 3 builds out on my own. I got those 3 builds from a video and I decided to write them down, since many seem to struggle with ZvZ a lot. These builds were worked out by EGMachine and EGIdra, so all credit goes to them! (If you decide to watch the video skip to the 1h mark)
1.0 One Base Roach OpenerBuild Order: + Show Spoiler +
9 ovi
14 pool
14 gas
15 ovi
15 queen
17 Roach Warren + 6 Zerglings when pool finishes (4 lings on ramp, scout with 2)
19 drone
20 ovi
20 6 roaches
32 ovi
32 Lair, 2nd gas, evo chamber, drones (~2 drones for every 4 roaches)
42 lvl 1 range upgrade, overseer (for contaminate), roaches
50 roach speed, burrow
. attack and expand when the 3 upgrades (attack, speed, burrow) are done
. start a queen in the main when the expo is half done
. lvl 2 range upgrade when expo done
. 3rd and 4th gas, infestation pit (~1 minute after 2 range upgrade)
. patho glands when the infestation pit is done
. ~3 infestors when patho glands half done
Try to split up his army with fungal growths and attack the spilt up part of it. Burrow your damaged roaches. You don't need burrow movement since the opponent will have an overseer anyway. Watch our for Muta tech switches! 1.2 What maps is this build good on?Small maps favor this build since the opponent can't really punish you for moving out. Delta Quadrant, Steppes of War 2.0 Speedling into BanelingBuild Order: + Show Spoiler +
9 ovi
14 gas
14 pool
15 queen, ling speed (100gas) -> rally to the middle of the map, pump lings (no more drones, 15 is enough)
20 Banelingsnest
19 lings
23 ovi
23 more lings
sidemark: you can't really transition with this build. The only scenario a transition might be possible is if the opponent plays defensice ling/bling with a spine crawler, which should give you enough time.
The opponent has a roach warren, what should I do?:
. if the opp has a roach warren (scout with the first two lings) cancel the nest, pull drones off gas and pump drones
~30 double gas, evo chamber, roach warren
. lvl1 range upgrade, roach speed, overseer, burrow
. if the opp goes spire get some spores, if he goes heavy roach into spire you have enough time to get a decent amount of hydras
. get an expansion when the 3 upgrades are done and follow up with infestors
This is essential: Never morph more than 2 lings into blings at a time (you wouldn't have much to defend for a short period of time). While the banelings morph set their rally points to his mineral line and completely forget about them. All you have to do is to micro your lings against his blings and let it up to the opponent to handle your blings. Don't forget to keep morphing banelings and let them run into his mineral line. Try to kill his incoming blings with your lings. Deselecting lings is the best way to do it imo. Also never attack one baneling with more than two lings. The math behind it: It takes 2 banelings to kill one baneling; if you don't attack his baneling with more than 2 lings you should get an eco advantage since 2 lings are 50 minerals and 1 bling is 50 minerals and 25 gas. 2.2 What maps is this build good on?I find this build to be pretty good on any map. This build is also very good against roach openers and FEs. My favorite out of these 3 builds. 3.0 Fast ExpansionBuild Order: + Show Spoiler +
15 hatch
15 pool (better than 14pool, since it wins and loses against the exact same builds)
15 ovi
17 2 queens, transfer 5 drones to the nat and put 2 spnes at your nat
19 drones
22 ovi
22 8 lings, block the ramp with both queens
26 2 more spines at nat, keep droning
40 double gas
~46 roach warren
. 3rd hatch in main, Lair
. queen back to main, evo chamber when roaches pop
Try to place your buildings (evo chamber, roach warren and spines) right - you should block the ramp with them. If you manage to fend off the first 2 attacks you should have such a huge eco advantage that it's already GG. Watch out for Muta tech switches! 3.2 What maps is this build good on?You know, maps where main and nat share one ramp. LT, meta.. 4. Any Replays?Just go ahead and watch the video I linked above. Also: In ZvZ you want to place your overlords along the path to your opponent. If he kills too many of your overlords with mutas get ovi speed. EGMachine also states that he doesn't drone-scout, since you never see anything that is worth seeing. He likes scouting with his first 2 lings.
Thanks for sharing. But im pretty sure that you can not cancel the Banelingnest if you go scout with first lings, on some maps you will not reach the opponent base early enough to see if he builds/builded a roachwarren, at that point your Bnest will already be finished if you put it down at 20 supply. So i like this BO but to have a building which i do not use is kinda shitty.
But the Roach opening seems very nice, too. You guys think it snot playable on Maps like scrap or Metalopolis? If Opponent sees your BO and goes fast Muta you could be pretty much fucked, right? So is a good reaction to mutas some spores or going Hydras before infestors?
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On November 30 2010 05:36 Andre112 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 05:17 MrBitter wrote:On November 30 2010 04:57 decaf wrote:
Mutas should be easy to deal with, since the spire takes way longer to build than the hydralisk den. Hydras + Infestors own Mutas in a way Nukes can't even dream of. Really, fg the clumped up muta ball and send some hydras, they outrange the Mutas and won't take any damage. You may need several fgs. It of course comes all down to scouting. Some queen energy plus spores counter Mutas pretty well too.
When the opponent gets spines expand and/or drone hard. Any air-to-ground unit can be considered good against spines. This is one way to approach it... Unless the other guy's dumb, though, he's not going to come anywhere near hydras or infestors, and will be able to expand freely with the map control he gains from the mutas. If you open banes and he walls in and starts teching, you need to transition into roach. If he goes muta, just attack his base around the time his spire finishes. Your army should vastly outnumber his. so before his spire is up, do you only make roaches (no drones) for that timing attack? do you go lair and get roach speed/burrow/+1 attack?
I wouldn't go for +1. If you're going to spend the gas you mindswell just get a Lair too IMO. I feel the 4 extra roaches would be a much better use of the gas if your trying to end it with a timing attack.
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On November 30 2010 06:07 kidcrash89 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 05:36 Andre112 wrote:On November 30 2010 05:17 MrBitter wrote:On November 30 2010 04:57 decaf wrote:
Mutas should be easy to deal with, since the spire takes way longer to build than the hydralisk den. Hydras + Infestors own Mutas in a way Nukes can't even dream of. Really, fg the clumped up muta ball and send some hydras, they outrange the Mutas and won't take any damage. You may need several fgs. It of course comes all down to scouting. Some queen energy plus spores counter Mutas pretty well too.
When the opponent gets spines expand and/or drone hard. Any air-to-ground unit can be considered good against spines. This is one way to approach it... Unless the other guy's dumb, though, he's not going to come anywhere near hydras or infestors, and will be able to expand freely with the map control he gains from the mutas. If you open banes and he walls in and starts teching, you need to transition into roach. If he goes muta, just attack his base around the time his spire finishes. Your army should vastly outnumber his. so before his spire is up, do you only make roaches (no drones) for that timing attack? do you go lair and get roach speed/burrow/+1 attack? I wouldn't go for +1. If you're going to spend the gas you mindswell just get a Lair too IMO. I feel the 4 extra roaches would be a much better use of the gas if your trying to end it with a timing attack.
Depends on what your opponent does.
If he went speedlings/banelings transition into Mutas, +1 roaches will 2 shot lings instead of 3shotting them. The +1 will also help eventual hydras should the game not end with your push and you gotta deal with flying units.
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Those are amazing videos on MrBitters stream. Thanks OP.
I have a question about some timings to challenge Hatch first. Does the Roach +1/Burrow/Speed push get crushed? And what about a +1 Ling timing push if you opened Gas/Pool? Does Hatch first hold vs it all?
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I've been using these builds since watching the videos, I've had amazing success with all of them. Thanks for uploading the lessons, they've helped me a ton and after seeing the quality of the lessons I may one day buy them.
Thanks.
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Those are amazing videos on MrBitters stream. Thanks OP.
I have a question about some timings to challenge Hatch first. Does the Roach +1/Burrow/Speed push get crushed? And what about a +1 Ling timing push if you opened Gas/Pool? Does Hatch first hold vs it all?
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http://mrbitter.blip.tv/posts?view=archive&nsfw=dc
Got the VODs uploading to Blip right now.
ZvP with iNcontroL is up, and the Machine ones are chugging along right now.
Should make for easier viewing for those of you who struggle with livestream, or just hate ads.
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Those really are great help, I put the link into the OP so everyone can see it
@kaos00: I haven't really had much time in the last few days practicing these builds, so I'm not really sure. You may just try it out yourselfm, but the burrow, attack, speed push was designed not to get crushed, but to be as powerful as possible (for obvious reasons), if he has a decent amount of Mutas and you no AA, then yes, it probably will.
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In the middle build you can actually get an extra ovie in there and be fine. i usually go
14gas
14pool
15 ovie
queen, meta on pool finish, bane at 20 or 21. I push in with my first lings and if i see a roach waren i cancel the bane and build a roach warren myself.
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Thanks so much for these builds I will go and cheak them out later. Ive been so lost trying to find good, stable builds in ZvZ
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yeah the thing about zvz is youll often find your opponent doing the same damn build as your doing in a lot of the games. I usually use zerglings to buffer my banelings into the mineral line when i get the chance, because in zvz where both players often do the same thing its the little advantages that count. If you manage to, for instance, kill off 1/3rd of his drones with those initial baneling then you can run with it and pull the game through by just playing smart.
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Great strategies, I definitely like the Roach opening. Will use that in more ZvZ
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Thanks for this
it makes me want to get some coaching with machine
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I've been having trouble with 2 base muta when I'm going the 2 base roach build, seems like he gets too many mutas out before I am able to get enough hydras out, even with an infestor or two for support. Anyone else having this kind of problem?
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On December 02 2010 11:26 Qtlisk wrote:
I've been having trouble with 2 base muta when I'm going the 2 base roach build, seems like he gets too many mutas out before I am able to get enough hydras out, even with an infestor or two for support. Anyone else having this kind of problem?
Where, in any of this, did you read about a 2 base roach build?
Are you talking about a regular FE?
If yes, you're probably skipping the lings, applying no pressure at all, and allowing him to tech freely while you do nothing.
This is the wrong way to FE.
Regardless, if he goes muta, he's cutting units. There's a timing you can exploit to kill him. You need to watch some of your replays (or post them here if you need someone to do it for you) and determine when you need to be attacking, and then make sure you hit that timing next time you run into a player going muta.
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Ive been FEing in zvz and cant decide when to get gas. Is it better to delay gas and use spine crawlers and slowlings to defend vs any early pressure, or get gas for roaches/banelings/speed. Particularly ive found that the 2 base speedling build is hard to hold off without gas for banes. Is it dependent on scouting?
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On December 02 2010 16:19 MrBitter wrote:Where, in any of this, did you read about a 2 base roach build? Are you talking about a regular FE? If yes, you're probably skipping the lings, applying no pressure at all, and allowing him to tech freely while you do nothing. This is the wrong way to FE. Regardless, if he goes muta, he's cutting units. There's a timing you can exploit to kill him. You need to watch some of your replays (or post them here if you need someone to do it for you) and determine when you need to be attacking, and then make sure you hit that timing next time you run into a player going muta.
Yes, I was talking about the FE build, sorry if that was confusing. Thanks for the input, I'll try to remember to save some of my replays when this happens to me. Love the stream btw :D
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I'm having problem with the first build.
It feels like a roach play, with +1 and no lair with a fast expansion really beats this build. He simpy outproduces me in roachnumbers and if I spend my larva on lings to do a runby in to his mineral lines I fall back even further in economy.
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On December 03 2010 07:21 nicke10 wrote:
I'm having problem with the first build.
It feels like a roach play, with +1 and no lair with a fast expansion really beats this build. He simpy outproduces me in roachnumbers and if I spend my larva on lings to do a runby in to his mineral lines I fall back even further in economy.
Well, for starters, roach plays in general aren't very good at punishing fast expands.
If you scout a FE, or expect a FE (meaning hatch first) then don't go roach.
If he goes pool first, and then expands, and you're still struggling to punish it, the problem is in your execution.
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On December 03 2010 07:48 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 07:21 nicke10 wrote:
I'm having problem with the first build.
It feels like a roach play, with +1 and no lair with a fast expansion really beats this build. He simpy outproduces me in roachnumbers and if I spend my larva on lings to do a runby in to his mineral lines I fall back even further in economy. Well, for starters, roach plays in general aren't very good at punishing fast expands. If you scout a FE, or expect a FE (meaning hatch first) then don't go roach. If he goes pool first, and then expands, and you're still struggling to punish it, the problem is in your execution.
The push comes around the time my lair finishes, then he has his expansion and more roaches.
He lays down the expansion and has equally my roach numbers so I can't push and punish.
Replay below.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-170843.jpg)
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when you do FE and your opponent goes roach and expand, when should i get gas?
it seems like ppl always race for muta and if i get gas late, my lair is late, and I just die
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On December 07 2010 11:38 Andre112 wrote:
when you do FE and your opponent goes roach and expand, when should i get gas?
it seems like ppl always race for muta and if i get gas late, my lair is late, and I just die
Same time as your pool... Just like if you were playing 1 base.
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under what situation would you gas at 40 food?
that's what machine said when he taught you the FE build.
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Adjust your speedling build and you can transition. Try not putting a bane nest and adding an expansion at 21 supply. (Pull workers after 100 gas). This will allow you to go into the game with a faster expansion that is 100% defend able.
They cannot move into muta play with this opener either or they will die. Forces low eco roach or bane or roach/bane builds. If they try to expand behind you, you can overwhelm.
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Vod offline??
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On December 08 2010 03:55 Sanasante wrote:
Adjust your speedling build and you can transition. Try not putting a bane nest and adding an expansion at 21 supply. (Pull workers after 100 gas). This will allow you to go into the game with a faster expansion that is 100% defend able.
They cannot move into muta play with this opener either or they will die. Forces low eco roach or bane or roach/bane builds. If they try to expand behind you, you can overwhelm.
I feel that this is very risky, as it is punishable with a decent roach timing push. Thoughts?
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On December 08 2010 03:55 Sanasante wrote:
Adjust your speedling build and you can transition. Try not putting a bane nest and adding an expansion at 21 supply. (Pull workers after 100 gas). This will allow you to go into the game with a faster expansion that is 100% defend able.
They cannot move into muta play with this opener either or they will die. Forces low eco roach or bane or roach/bane builds. If they try to expand behind you, you can overwhelm.
If they stay on 1 base ling/baneling and keep pressuring, won't you probably lose from having 300/350 minerals less spent on lings?
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any1 knows where i can watch the video? cause its down 
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+1 has been crucial for me in ZvZ lately, esp in games where we both go roach. You have to be passive earlier on when you sac the 4 roaches worth of gas for the upgrade, but everything's defendable if you have either a ramp or far positions to defend from. Eventually, the number of roaches you can make is limited by your larva and minerals, not your gas, so roach numbers can even out and you get +1 = win.
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Notice that machine said he open ling/baneling in xel'naga, I think roach opening is pretty strong there too, as I can still block my ramp with 3 roaches (or 6 for double block, extra safety), and since the natural is wide open, roach still can punish the natural expansion.
Well, except if what he meant is to open with speedlings, then scout, if there is roach warren, then drone up, and do the delayed roach play, then it make sense. (just like the tutorial video in blistering sands)
any views on this?
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Hi, i been using the speedling bling build..people say its good against roache openings , yet i always loose to these.. how does this work?
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I only ever get enough Roaches to block off my own ramp 3 deep, I've found that that trying to push out into the open against Ling Bling usually just results in my Roaches being lost to a ling surround. Beyond that, it's a micro/macro war for the first to Critical Mass Mutas without falling far enough behind in Ling/Bling to lose. First to Mutas usually wins by sniping the Banelings Nest and/or Hydra Den... Either/or works just fine since ling/bling will clean up any surviving hydras without having to fear banelings blowing them up while sniping the hydra den gives you free reign over the Zerg Player's base.
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On December 22 2010 15:22 Carras wrote:
Hi, i been using the speedling bling build..people say its good against roache openings , yet i always loose to these.. how does this work?
Catch Roaches in the open with your Speedlings and micro a few banelings at a time against Speedlings and other baneling packs that they may have in support of their roaches. Early game, Speedlings have the advantage over roaches in the open and Roaches rape Lings in the chokes.
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On December 22 2010 15:23 Conrose wrote:
I only ever get enough Roaches to block off my own ramp 3 deep, I've found that that trying to push out into the open against Ling Bling usually just results in my Roaches being lost to a ling surround. Beyond that, it's a micro/macro war for the first to Critical Mass Mutas without falling far enough behind in Ling/Bling to lose. First to Mutas usually wins by sniping the Banelings Nest and/or Hydra Den... Either/or works just fine since ling/bling will clean up any surviving hydras without having to fear banelings blowing them up while sniping the hydra den gives you free reign over the Zerg Player's base.
Normally, I'll scout out with lings to check his lings count, his tech, his saturation, etc. If somehow it looks like he is massing lings, I won't go out to open area until I have "enough" roaches (feeling based). Once you have enough roaches, preferably with those upgrades (I prefer +1 armor vs lings), then you have the map control. Always stick your roaches together like a mob, so surrounding will be less effective. Keep an eye on muta tech switch though, as during my roach spamming (before I have "enough" roaches), I'm open to any kind of muta harass.
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On December 22 2010 15:42 winedz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 15:23 Conrose wrote:
I only ever get enough Roaches to block off my own ramp 3 deep, I've found that that trying to push out into the open against Ling Bling usually just results in my Roaches being lost to a ling surround. Beyond that, it's a micro/macro war for the first to Critical Mass Mutas without falling far enough behind in Ling/Bling to lose. First to Mutas usually wins by sniping the Banelings Nest and/or Hydra Den... Either/or works just fine since ling/bling will clean up any surviving hydras without having to fear banelings blowing them up while sniping the hydra den gives you free reign over the Zerg Player's base. Normally, I'll scout out with lings to check his lings count, his tech, his saturation, etc. If somehow it looks like he is massing lings, I won't go out to open area until I have "enough" roaches (feeling based). Once you have enough roaches, preferably with those upgrades (I prefer +1 armor vs lings), then you have the map control. Always stick your roaches together like a mob, so surrounding will be less effective. Keep an eye on muta tech switch though, as during my roach spamming (before I have "enough" roaches), I'm open to any kind of muta harass.
umm, you do know that +1 attack allows roaches to 2 shot lings instead of 3 shot, it makes a HUGE difference. think how badly +1 attack zealots beat unupgraded lings, then imagine if they also had 4 range.
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On December 22 2010 15:49 AnAngryDingo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 15:42 winedz wrote:On December 22 2010 15:23 Conrose wrote:
I only ever get enough Roaches to block off my own ramp 3 deep, I've found that that trying to push out into the open against Ling Bling usually just results in my Roaches being lost to a ling surround. Beyond that, it's a micro/macro war for the first to Critical Mass Mutas without falling far enough behind in Ling/Bling to lose. First to Mutas usually wins by sniping the Banelings Nest and/or Hydra Den... Either/or works just fine since ling/bling will clean up any surviving hydras without having to fear banelings blowing them up while sniping the hydra den gives you free reign over the Zerg Player's base. Normally, I'll scout out with lings to check his lings count, his tech, his saturation, etc. If somehow it looks like he is massing lings, I won't go out to open area until I have "enough" roaches (feeling based). Once you have enough roaches, preferably with those upgrades (I prefer +1 armor vs lings), then you have the map control. Always stick your roaches together like a mob, so surrounding will be less effective. Keep an eye on muta tech switch though, as during my roach spamming (before I have "enough" roaches), I'm open to any kind of muta harass. umm, you do know that +1 attack allows roaches to 2 shot lings instead of 3 shot, it makes a HUGE difference. think how badly +1 attack zealots beat unupgraded lings, then imagine if they also had 4 range.
Oh, i didn't know it's 2 shots, thanks for info man
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On December 22 2010 15:42 winedz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 15:23 Conrose wrote:
I only ever get enough Roaches to block off my own ramp 3 deep, I've found that that trying to push out into the open against Ling Bling usually just results in my Roaches being lost to a ling surround. Beyond that, it's a micro/macro war for the first to Critical Mass Mutas without falling far enough behind in Ling/Bling to lose. First to Mutas usually wins by sniping the Banelings Nest and/or Hydra Den... Either/or works just fine since ling/bling will clean up any surviving hydras without having to fear banelings blowing them up while sniping the hydra den gives you free reign over the Zerg Player's base. Normally, I'll scout out with lings to check his lings count, his tech, his saturation, etc. If somehow it looks like he is massing lings, I won't go out to open area until I have "enough" roaches (feeling based). Once you have enough roaches, preferably with those upgrades (I prefer +1 armor vs lings), then you have the map control. Always stick your roaches together like a mob, so surrounding will be less effective. Keep an eye on muta tech switch though, as during my roach spamming (before I have "enough" roaches), I'm open to any kind of muta harass.
That's the very important thing to keep in mind about a player massing lings... you need to find out what how much gas income he has and where it's going to. If he Slinging without Blings, the alarms should be going off. The dangers become Burrow Roaches, Landmines, and of course the Mutalisks. A successful Landmin explosion with Blings really shifts the fight in Ling's favor while Burrow Roaches can harass quite effectively (I've won matches purely on unburrowing Roaches after setting them up to block any escape by workers). Mutas really explains itself and unless you have quick access to AA, you pretty much have to All in with your current roach force and basically base race them or try to force their Mutas to pull back long enough to get your AA. And if he splits his Mutas in two groups, one to hunt down hydra tech while the other destroys your Roach force, you are pretty screwed.
But in your typical ZvZ, you'll have a hard time getting to that critical mass of Roaches without seriously endangering yourself or opening the door to the opponent securing an expansion. I've had one match where both myself and my opponent at most got 14 Drones before the micro back and forth very effectively stopped droning on both sides until we both ended up getting a very successful bling roll on the worker line putting us both back to 6 Drones per side with both queens dead.
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Thanks to MrBitter, now I'm using my overseer to find his army and check his army count :D, IMO with the use of overseer, now it's safer for me to go out with my roaches, spread overlord and keep on scouting and check where he positioned his army and what is the size.
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in the first roach build,
it's not possible to get 6 lings when pool finishes and make drone on 19.
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the first roach build doenst seem to work out its way it's written. it's impossible to get things at the stated times. Does no one else seem to realize this?
u also dont make enough drones. sup with that?
9 ovi
14 pool
14 gas
15 ovi
15 queen
17 Roach Warren + 6 Zerglings when pool finishes (4 lings on ramp, scout with 2)
19 drone
so ur saying 2 pairs of lings at 17food, 1 drone at 19food, and mae the last pair of lings by waiting for that larvae. u dont have larvae to do it that way. is it super important that the drone is on 19, i.e. ling ling drone ling? You should really say 16 ling 17 ling 18 drone 19 ling
20 ovi
20 6 roaches
32 ovi if ur gonna get lair, evo, gas, why get hte overlord first????
32 Lair, 2nd gas, evo chamber, drones (~2 drones for every 4 roaches)
u dont say "at 32 food, get a bunch of shit. what's listed there is so much fucking money and doesn't happen at one time. there's also too much stuff there to know which one u should make first. Timing wise, if u make the lair first, the evo chamber comes later, and the timings deviate. 2 drones and 4 roaches? when do u make those?
and why would you say "2 drones for every 4 roaches" when it's exactly 2 drones and 4 roaches for 10 supply to go from 32->42 supply? ultra bad wording.
42 lvl 1 range upgrade, overseer (for contaminate), roaches
now really, you shouldn't be making the evo chamber until ur gonna click the upgrade right away. range upg takes 60 more time than burrow or speed, so u should try to time those upgrdes so they come 60 seconds after you click range upg. So, u dont want to go lair until u can click speed and burrow upg. all those constraints make it impossible to do things as this build says. u get around 41 food by the time u click burrow and speed. it's also set way back if u make 4 roaches if u actually make more roaches to get to 50 food, then ur low on drones and that's so much time. u shoudl really get minimal roaches, get those upgrades early or asap, and drone up. this is just pure impossible and so poor.
50 roach speed, burrow
um way late, or something is wrong in the stated BO.
during this whole process, no drones are made, and u have very few. a build order is an optimization. this is very very not optimal.
please point to the exact replay this is done. the whole archive is not labeled properly. to see this build. again fail.
. attack and expand when the 3 upgrades (attack, speed, burrow) are done
. start a queen in the main when the expo is half done
. lvl 2 range upgrade when expo done
. 3rd and 4th gas, infestation pit (~1 minute after 2 range upgrade)
. patho glands when the infestation pit is done
. ~3 infestors when patho glands half done
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so i'm watching the video that was referenced. He the player got behind in money. that's hwy he was able to do things at the time stated in the OP build order.
in the video, he made queen and roach den at same time. u want to make roach den at 35/50 queen so that den pops when first larvae pops. that explains why 19 drone is so ridiculous. he was behind in larvae as well. generally behidn in time.
u also got it compeltely wrong after the lair. in the video he kept droning. he didn't make 2 drones and 4 roaches. no wonder.
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On November 28 2010 20:32 Madkipz wrote:anyone that has good drone micro can fend off a 6 pool
Can you perhaps point me to a high level VoD of someone fending off a 6 pool in ZvZ with a late pool? I can't really bring myself to believe this statement without VoD proof, as it would seem you just don't have enough drones to kill the lings AND the crawler in time, AND keeping some kind of drone advantage. If it's possible I'd love to see it.
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On November 28 2010 21:38 Sclol wrote:
i play sling only with a more or less fast +1 and expand at ~20 and i'm doing really well... i can fend off ling bling and roach and roach baneling
This mostly. I never see a reason to get blings or roaches in the early game since with good micro you should be able to hold an expo and get +1 which helps make them more effective in mid-game armies.
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here is the much more refined, intended 1 base roach openner BO
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/1_Base_Roach_Upgrade#Basic_Build_Order
+ Show Spoiler + * 9 Overlord (don't scout when intending to 1 base pool, use lings)
* 14 Pool
* 14 Extractor
* 15 Overlord
* 15 Queen
* 3 pairs of Lings
* Drone
* Roach Warren @ 35/50 Queen
* Drone
* Overlord
* 6 Roaches @ simultaneous Larvae, Warren, Overlord (defend in double layer of 3 at ramp for maximum walling)
* Extractor [2]
* Evolution chamber
* Lair@ 15/35 Evolution Chamber
* Drone
Creep tumor now; you will have excess Larvae
* Level 1 Range Attack @ 20/80 Lair
* 2 Drones
* Overlord
* Roach Speed and Burrow @ Lair completion (3 drones off one Extractor
* 2 Drones (to minerals to make 16 drones on 8 mineral patches)
* 3 Drones rallied to Extractor
* Overlord
* 4 roach
* Overlord
* 2 Roach
* Expo Hatchery and attack (with 12 Roaches) @ 3 upgrades (attack, speed, burrow) completion
* Queen @ 50/100 Hatch
- Can branch into Infestor play
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On November 29 2010 00:39 Sadform wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2010 23:50 mansnicks wrote:
2.0 = fail against higher level players.. It doesn't. You scout with your first two lings. If you scout roach warren you cancel the nest and build a warren yourself. And carry on with the roach strat.
and this is exactly what machine said he does in his little zvz guide video. =D ling bling is still standard, you just cancel the nest if you scout roach warren.
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I've reviewed the videos a few times and watch the stream somewhat regularly. Something that's not clear to me is why go ling/baneling.
If the build suggests you cancel the nest when you scout a roach warren why not just go ling then roach? What builds is the speedling/baneling build supposed to be strong against that the ling/roach build cannot address? Is it speedling + fast expand or is there some other reason one goes speedling/baneling? Thanks to anyone that answers this question for me.
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On January 14 2011 14:35 waffling1 wrote:here is the much more refined, intended 1 base roach openner BO http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/1_Base_Roach_Upgrade#Basic_Build_Order+ Show Spoiler + * 9 Overlord (don't scout when intending to 1 base pool, use lings)
* 14 Pool
* 14 Extractor
* 15 Overlord
* 15 Queen
* 3 pairs of Lings
* Drone
* Roach Warren @ 35/50 Queen
* Drone
* Overlord
* 6 Roaches @ simultaneous Larvae, Warren, Overlord (defend in double layer of 3 at ramp for maximum walling)
* Extractor [2]
* Evolution chamber
* Lair@ 15/35 Evolution Chamber
* Drone
Creep tumor now; you will have excess Larvae
* Level 1 Range Attack @ 20/80 Lair
* 2 Drones
* Overlord
* Roach Speed and Burrow @ Lair completion (3 drones off one Extractor
* 2 Drones (to minerals to make 16 drones on 8 mineral patches)
* 3 Drones rallied to Extractor
* Overlord
* 4 roach
* Overlord
* 2 Roach
* Expo Hatchery and attack (with 12 Roaches) @ 3 upgrades (attack, speed, burrow) completion
* Queen @ 50/100 Hatch
- Can branch into Infestor play
Can you clarify what it means by 6 roaches @ simultaneous larvae, warren, overlord? Does this mean that once the inject finishes you build 6? and what does the warren mean?
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@ waffling
if u make the roach warren at 17 supply, ur supply gets reduced to 16 supply. hence u make 6 lings to get to 19 supply
=]
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On January 24 2011 02:11 Chinesewonder wrote:
Can you clarify what it means by 6 roaches @ simultaneous larvae, warren, overlord? Does this mean that once the inject finishes you build 6? and what does the warren mean?
yes, you build 6 roaches after the injected larvea spawn. I interpret "@simultaneous larvae, warren, overlord" as that those 3 things should be completed at the same time if you execute the build perfectly.
just watch the vod (http://mrbitter.blip.tv/file/4446975/) to get a better understandig of the build, i think its done 3 times there
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I have been using Day9 hatch tech roach/queen/wall-in into overseer/muta/lair tech roach and it seems to work well against most early zerg play with proper scouting since I keep 1 overlord near his ramp.
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EPT
