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On November 17 2010 22:31 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 22:25 Goliathsorrow wrote:
Warp prism + Immortal, get the Immortal when Thor charges the strike cannon attack therefore cancelling it and wasting his DPS time by not doing anything. Sorry, but - bad idea: why? because you could get a 2nd immortal instead of the warp prism. It's not about the ressources, it's literally about time....you need every second you can squeeze out of your robotics, spend all the chrono-boost you have on immortals and for the love of little jesus don't get supply-blocked. I would never waste robotics-production-time on getting a prism, UNLESS my opponent somehow decided to camp down my ramp with 2+ thors (but then again I'd probably get the prism to warp in a couple of zealots in his mineral line)
But 1 thor > 1 Immortal with strike cannon so u would end up with 1 Immortal left anyway unless ur intention is to use the Immortals to try to burst the Thor down but I doubt u can before the strike cannons hit.
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On November 18 2010 00:01 Goliathsorrow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 22:31 sleepingdog wrote:On November 17 2010 22:25 Goliathsorrow wrote:
Warp prism + Immortal, get the Immortal when Thor charges the strike cannon attack therefore cancelling it and wasting his DPS time by not doing anything. Sorry, but - bad idea: why? because you could get a 2nd immortal instead of the warp prism. It's not about the ressources, it's literally about time....you need every second you can squeeze out of your robotics, spend all the chrono-boost you have on immortals and for the love of little jesus don't get supply-blocked. I would never waste robotics-production-time on getting a prism, UNLESS my opponent somehow decided to camp down my ramp with 2+ thors (but then again I'd probably get the prism to warp in a couple of zealots in his mineral line) But 1 thor > 1 Immortal with strike cannon so u would end up with 1 Immortal left anyway unless ur intention is to use the Immortals to try to burst the Thor down but I doubt u can before the strike cannons hit.
Very true - but again, why would I want one immortal + one prism, if I could have two immortals? I would need to micro the one immortal into the prism and back out when I could have the second immortal happily shooting at the thor allt he time?
This I meant with "ressources don't matter" - I don't care about the lost immortal, all I want is the 2nd immortal...and a third right after that if I get the chance. See what I mean?
Also there's always a slight chance my first immortal gets 1-2 shots of before it evaporates against the strike cannon. When the immortal is inside the prism there's nothing around that deals damage to the thor, which also means the marines will stay alive longer.
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ive been doing something like this build too but i dont get cannons or plating because i find activating the cannons makes it easy for zealots to surround and rape scvs with the slipknot trick.
Instead, by more or less the same time but with and earlier 2nd gas i can get +2 marine weapon damage which helps with early push defense and melts immortals hardened shield while thors rape gateway units. More specifically zealots.
Oh yes the addition of the ebay also lets you build turrets for detecting dts at your base and and build plantary fortress should you really need to should your push fail
Its sounds more effective to my play style but i will check the replays tonight.
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On November 17 2010 23:53 Janook wrote:
Regarding losing to an early push:
No. There are many builds that just rely on marines to hold back early pushes. This build is nice in particular because you use that first helion to scout the opponent. If you scout on properly, you should arrive at his base while his warpgates are transforming. This is plenty of time to throw up a bunker in time for teh 2nd wave of warpgate units. Also, your thor will pop in time to defend as well.
Not with marines from just the one barracks.
You'll have around 4-6 marines by the time something can come knocking.
One bunker, especially if there are stalkers around is going to have a hard time defending anything.
A walloff is tricky as Stalkers could snipe the depots, possibly supply blocking the Thor from being built.
Without stim (which you cant determine in time if you can get it safely) a Void Ray rush can be quite devastating as well.
Not saying this build will instantly die to any early pressure, but it is a risk to be aware of.
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On November 18 2010 00:06 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 00:01 Goliathsorrow wrote:On November 17 2010 22:31 sleepingdog wrote:On November 17 2010 22:25 Goliathsorrow wrote:
Warp prism + Immortal, get the Immortal when Thor charges the strike cannon attack therefore cancelling it and wasting his DPS time by not doing anything. Sorry, but - bad idea: why? because you could get a 2nd immortal instead of the warp prism. It's not about the ressources, it's literally about time....you need every second you can squeeze out of your robotics, spend all the chrono-boost you have on immortals and for the love of little jesus don't get supply-blocked. I would never waste robotics-production-time on getting a prism, UNLESS my opponent somehow decided to camp down my ramp with 2+ thors (but then again I'd probably get the prism to warp in a couple of zealots in his mineral line) But 1 thor > 1 Immortal with strike cannon so u would end up with 1 Immortal left anyway unless ur intention is to use the Immortals to try to burst the Thor down but I doubt u can before the strike cannons hit. Very true - but again, why would I want one immortal + one prism, if I could have two immortals? I would need to micro the one immortal into the prism and back out when I could have the second immortal happily shooting at the thor allt he time? This I meant with "ressources don't matter" - I don't care about the lost immortal, all I want is the 2nd immortal...and a third right after that if I get the chance. See what I mean? Also there's always a slight chance my first immortal gets 1-2 shots of before it evaporates against the strike cannon. When the immortal is inside the prism there's nothing around that deals damage to the thor, which also means the marines will stay alive longer.
U could just spam drop hit drop hit the immortal or trick the terran to use the cannon on it and then grab it. The fact that he's wasting seconds of insane thor DPS to try to get ur immortal with the ability sounds very helpful to me since it gives breath to ur gateway units. U can also let the shields of immortal recharge a bit while he's inside.
Think it like a reaver in sc1, it increases a lot it's hp even against marines like the good ol' tank dropship micro.
Edit: and u could drop some zealots behind to attack the marines ? I dunno how much it could work but it does seem to give more micro opportunity than just spam immortals and hope for the best...
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On November 18 2010 00:12 Goliathsorrow wrote:
Think it like a reaver in sc1, it increases a lot it's hp even against marines like the good ol' tank dropship micro.
I still think you fail to see my point - my point is, that the prism is ALSO built at the robotics-facility and builds only slightly faster. Why would I want to micro to make effective use of one immortal when I could have two of them already? The prism won't serve for anything else than the micro-purpose and chances are, marines kill all of my zealots while I'm busy with the drop-cutesy.
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On November 18 2010 00:17 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 00:12 Goliathsorrow wrote:
Think it like a reaver in sc1, it increases a lot it's hp even against marines like the good ol' tank dropship micro. I still think you fail to see my point - my point is, that the prism is ALSO built at the robotics-facility and builds only slightly faster. Why would I want to micro to make effective use of one immortal when I could have two of them already? The prism won't serve for anything else than the micro-purpose and chances are, marines kill all of my zealots while I'm busy with the drop-cutesy.
My point is that a microed single immortal with prism would be more effective than 2 immortals and also faster to make.
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On November 18 2010 00:11 Thezzy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 23:53 Janook wrote:
Regarding losing to an early push:
No. There are many builds that just rely on marines to hold back early pushes. This build is nice in particular because you use that first helion to scout the opponent. If you scout on properly, you should arrive at his base while his warpgates are transforming. This is plenty of time to throw up a bunker in time for teh 2nd wave of warpgate units. Also, your thor will pop in time to defend as well. Not with marines from just the one barracks. You'll have around 4-6 marines by the time something can come knocking. One bunker, especially if there are stalkers around is going to have a hard time defending anything. A walloff is tricky as Stalkers could snipe the depots, possibly supply blocking the Thor from being built. Without stim (which you cant determine in time if you can get it safely) a Void Ray rush can be quite devastating as well. Not saying this build will instantly die to any early pressure, but it is a risk to be aware of.
There are quite a few tech builds that feature constant one rax marine production, and while it is vulnerable to pressure it's not nearly as weak as you make it sound (see iEchoic's build, among others). A preemptive bunker can do wonders to fending off anything short of an all-in, and tossing down a second and a few repair SCVs if they're doing something like hard 4-gate guarantees you the win.
I haven't tried this build yet but I'm going to soon, it seems very well thought out.
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On November 18 2010 00:23 Goliathsorrow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 00:17 sleepingdog wrote:On November 18 2010 00:12 Goliathsorrow wrote:
Think it like a reaver in sc1, it increases a lot it's hp even against marines like the good ol' tank dropship micro. I still think you fail to see my point - my point is, that the prism is ALSO built at the robotics-facility and builds only slightly faster. Why would I want to micro to make effective use of one immortal when I could have two of them already? The prism won't serve for anything else than the micro-purpose and chances are, marines kill all of my zealots while I'm busy with the drop-cutesy. My point is that a microed single immortal with prism would be more effective than 2 immortals and also faster to make.
Warp Prisms are made of paper. They have off the top of my head 100 HP and 40 shields? While your idea of microing a shuttle and an immortal sounds good what generally happens is the warp prism gets focused down in 1 second. Then you are left with less DPS units. I am not saying that there isn't a way to make the micro shuttle viable. However, the 2 immortals spread out adds a large amount of extra DPS that seems to be more beneficial.
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warp prisms that die like flies.
Near marines and thors.
Carrying one of your few robo units.
Are you serious?
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Im sure this works... until protoss realizes that Dark Templars counters the living daylights out of it
feel free to correct me if im wrong, but i think a DT rush roflstomps any thor rush in the face (unless terran has saved up scans ofc)
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On November 18 2010 00:36 eu.exodus wrote:
warp prisms that die like flies.
Near marines and thors.
Carrying one of your few robo units.
Are you serious?
Marines are behind Thor and Thor doesn't really do much damage against warp prism alone.
But go ahead and propose me better options than blind DT rushes and I will read them with pleasure <.<
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How do you guys not understand the idea behind adding plating to this build? I think you are all theory crafting and none of you have actually done it. I execute it a bit different but the idea is the same. It depends on the thor going up the ramp first and tanking for marines, protoss almost always responds by focus firing with stalkers and with repair scvs compounding it +1armor will make this alot stronger.
My build basically involves 3 rax instead of one like this build, results in alot more marines so in my case I think that stim is probably more key then in this version, my version is probably more all in, but uses the income from 1base alot more efficiently I think.
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a voidray bo is maybe the easiest way to counter thor bo because:
- a toss should be able to have atleast 1 more vray if not 2 out if he does it inbase or till you reached his base ( thors are damn slow )
- imagine that not a single marine will die to toss his gateway units, which is very unlikely but best case scenario, they have to hit n run behind thors and further till all gate units are killed, the atleast 3 voidrays will be fully charged and took almost no dmg from ur thors and will 1shot ur marines so fast if they come back while they have no stim.
If protoss will loose 1 voidray its still 2vray against 2thor and theyr charged to fastly snipe all existing scvs while theyr also able to micro ezly away which buys him time aswell.
Other than vray, thors are great
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tried this one on 2v2. TZvZP. it worked. nice BO.
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Ha, it's pretty awesome. Obviously thor scv pushes have been pretty strong, but this is way more concrete and laidout. Just fooling around last night I think you might be able to work a marauder or two, or possibly even stim in for a few seconds after the push is wrapping up.
I see though that Janook is still working on it so looking forward to that.
Knowing blizzard though, they'll probably nerf some aspect, whether it's armory build time, scv repair, who knows, I could see why Janook doesn't want to announce it haha. 
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I use basically this same build in most of my TvPs, but I never thought of getting +1 armor instead of +1 weapons, so I'm definitely going to have to try that out. Also, I must say, it is extremely strong.
It's strong for two main reasons. What most Protoss have said (that if you engage on the ramp you can hold this off), is true. However, I think it's much smarter to not try and just all in the toss (situationally, of course), but in most cases you should use this to make the toss sac his natural while simultaneously getting yours up, and then you can either contain or retreat rather than just trying to break his ramp. In other words, use the push to get ahead, and then get more ahead, don't just try and outright win every time.
The second reason is that even if your push fails, this build transitions very well into 3/1/2, which I find to be much stronger against Protoss than MMMG or variants.
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Nice post, but the supply depot at 22 only takes the food cap to 35. The 1st Thor would not be able to be built as a result. The build order as listed does not work.
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I've been hit with a 1 Thor MM timing push about 2 minutes earlier than this before. This was when I went HTs BEFORE Robo Bay and also pre-patch. I managed to land a Feedback on the Thor but it was no use. Now I'm even more scared of this build, but thankfully most Terrans seem to just go MMM/Tank or Banshees.
(Note: I now go 3-Gate Robo and don't get HTs until I have a solid footing on two bases. I can't think of any way to stop 2 Thors that early on in the game, but I'm likely to push at around 5-6 minutes, which may be the deciding factor against this build.)
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I just faced this build last night. I'm not sure how well my opponent pulled it off but I went 1 gate robo FE and held it off pretty easily. I got 1 immortal and then 1 obs from my robo and when I saw his push coming with my obs i chronoed another immortal and by this time had 3 warp gates up. I target fired the thors with my immortals/stalkers right as they came up the ramp and they died quickly. After that the marine scv combo isn't hard to micro against. This strat is very all-in because their expo comes so late compared to 1 gate robo FE and 2 gate robo FE. The best thing I think a P can do to survive is just get an obs out as quickly as possible and then when you see it coming chrono immortals like mad. It may have worked better for the T if it was not on jungle basin or if he was able to engage me in the open field rather than my ramp.
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EPT
