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On November 18 2010 02:24 PaiNt) wrote:
It may have worked better for the T if it was not on jungle basin or if he was able to engage me in the open field rather than my ramp.
Yeah that's pretty key to this build. Jungle Basin is actually way better for a proxy thor, since toss tend to FE on that map, and a 1 thor push timing is close to impossible for an FE toss to stop. That being said, a proxy thor is pretty all in.
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http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/39432
This is a replay of Kiwikaki and Tarson with the build failing, but just barely.
It's not the same precisely, but it's pretty similar. The most noted piece missing is the second thor. Although, Tarson's push is at Kiwikaki's ramp at the 8 minute mark For those who can't view; Kiwikaki goes gate-robo-stargate. He scouts with his observer and see reactored barracks but misses the armory and the thor until it's at his front, he may just think it's a marine/scv push (he sees them moving out from Tarson's ramp). I think the only reason tarson loses, is because he wastes his 250mm cannon on an immortal at basically half shields rather than using his marines to work on it and then the cannon on the other immortal. That immortal remains untouched and finishes off the thor, Kiwikaki also pulls about 9 probes off the line. Tarson has 7 accompanying his thor.
So maybe a map like Shakuras or certain metalopolis positions might be more microintensive in certain situations.
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I played this last night and was able to scrape out a win on steppes. Watched the rep like 5 times because I've never been able to defend this, but the Terran didn't make very many mistakes (2k diamond range).
I went 1 gate FE, noticed a reactored barracks and a bunker at the choke so I followed with 2 gates and a robo.
Expecting banshees, I chronod 2 observers, one to scout and one for my mineral lines. Obs scouted 2 thors that just started moving out with 6 scvs and maybe 10 marines.
I was able to chrono 1 Immortal out when it hit me at 9 minutes. I also had 12 zealots and I think 8 stalkers and a sentry when I engaged. It was quite one sided, he did not focus fire the immortal with his marines, but he did get the cannon off early. I was able to focus fire the Thor down before the immortal died. The other Thor also died quickly and the marines were toasted afterwards.
If the push fails, your basically done. The toss is mostly saturated on two bases and you roasted 6-7 of your scvs off of one base.
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Well one thing that's important is that I think is that you can inflict enough damage and/or exchange enough units to delay something for toss.
My toss friend pointed me to this thread/build and I was leery only because I wondered what kind of capacity terran could function after it failed. Whether or not it was all-in or not. It wouldn't seem that way unless you completely blow your micro and don't exchange units. But it allows for an expansion to get up or even as my friend and I suggested, you can transition back into a really pumping bio production, with stim ready for a second push a few minutes later.
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alot of my friends that play zerg claim thors are good against zerg so wouldn't this build do some damage to a fe zerg or mutas??
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Stop teaching people how to ruin my life and break my equipment.
Kidding. But seriously, these kinds of builds make me very angry.. It's almost impossible stop them. I think we'll see some changes to the Thor in an upcoming patch, or to how SCVs repair them/priority, something along those lines.
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Reading this makes me wonder why I barely ever see terrans using strike cannons against a toss who masses collossi - I feel like there would be some serious late game implications.
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On November 18 2010 06:45 RiotSpectre wrote:
Reading this makes me wonder why I barely ever see terrans using strike cannons against a toss who masses collossi - I feel like there would be some serious late game implications.
They would never manage to get in range to use the ability, and the Colossi can just run away and cancel the skill/animation.
Thors are not doable against Colossi with range upgrade.
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I notice the OP doesn't test against 1 gate FE or fast storm. I don't know if 9min is long enough for the FE to have paid for itself, but I do know that storm >>> marines and scvs, and that thors with no support die pretty quickly to zealots, which a fast storm build will be heavy on. Worth testing IMO.
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oh yeah, can units under the effect of strike cannons be lifted off to cancel the effect?
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@ keilah, I think they can but that is a completely irrevant issue as it wouldnt be smart at all to make phoenix vs a thor. If you have a stargate up in time to get units out before this push you should obviously be getting voidrays as they actually do quite well against the thor while zealots clean up the marines.
The problem is just getting a voidray out in time, assuming you play somewhat standard and only scout with a observer after the first marine is out (what else can you do?) it is near impossible to get a counter to this that relies on tech.. voidrays will be too late, immortals will be in too low number (you need roughly 2 immortals per thor to deal with this) and range upgraded colossi obviously won't be in time either.
So far each replay in this thread of a thor push getting beaten was both poor play from the terran AND the protoss being very lucky to produce a counter fast enough. For example tarson executed the rush very poorly (he was late, hardly forwarded the factory and didnt follow up the attack properly) yet kiwi who was lucky to go with a very fast robo and scout the thor rush relatively quick only barely managed to get 2 immortals vs the 1 thor and even got behind in that push (he was behind afterwards, except tarson screwed up by continuing on thor after)
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Regarding TvZ:
This build is effective in TvZ, however a competent Zerg player, who goes baneling nest before lair will be able to crush it. This is known as "kyrix style". After the push fails, you are way way behind, making this very all-in if it doesn't work, whereass in TvP you can safely expand behind it.
Anyways, I'm still refining this build, hence why I didn't want it posted, but I'd apprecaite some people to help try and crush it.
If you think you can crush this build, please show me. Join me on #Janook at irc.quakenet.org.
Also, I stream games regularly, my stream is posted on TL.
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On November 18 2010 08:24 Markwerf wrote:
So far each replay in this thread of a thor push getting beaten was both poor play from the terran AND the protoss being very lucky to produce a counter fast enough. For example tarson executed the rush very poorly (he was late, hardly forwarded the factory and didnt follow up the attack properly) yet kiwi who was lucky to go with a very fast robo and scout the thor rush relatively quick only barely managed to get 2 immortals vs the 1 thor and even got behind in that push (he was behind afterwards, except tarson screwed up by continuing on thor after)
The funny thing is, Kiwi is KNOWN to open with very fast immortals, which - on paper - counters fast thors and STILL it was ridiculously close.
I'm generally reluctant to scream "imba", but this push can only be countered when you "anticipate" it - if you try to counter it when seeing the first thor it's definitely too late. And the armory can be proxied practicly everywhere.
I hate to say this, but this is yet ANOTHER push that only works....yes....because of (cloak) banshees. The thor-rush has basicly the exact same opening as a banshee-opening and requires a response that is basicly the exact opposite. The mere existence of banshees in the tech-tree screws up the scouting intel protoss gets - because if terran techs cloak, you want anything "but" a quick immortal.
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IF this build is done correctly, what is the earliest bunker that gets thrown up?
If it's started at, or later than 5 minutes, I can see the 5 Stalker Rush actually doing severe enough damage to stop this cold.
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Did any of the 2 gate robo or 3gate robo players try hallucinate nothing like making a thor waste its cannon shot on a hallucination.
IMO hallucinate is pretty good research the could allow you to keep your obs near your base in case of cloaked units. You could could keep it from getting sniped easier. You could still run a scout into the enemy base relatively quickly as hallucinated phoenixes are fast.
And to my knowledge scan does not reveal hallucinate but I could be wrong.
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On November 18 2010 09:05 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 08:24 Markwerf wrote:
So far each replay in this thread of a thor push getting beaten was both poor play from the terran AND the protoss being very lucky to produce a counter fast enough. For example tarson executed the rush very poorly (he was late, hardly forwarded the factory and didnt follow up the attack properly) yet kiwi who was lucky to go with a very fast robo and scout the thor rush relatively quick only barely managed to get 2 immortals vs the 1 thor and even got behind in that push (he was behind afterwards, except tarson screwed up by continuing on thor after) The funny thing is, Kiwi is KNOWN to open with very fast immortals, which - on paper - counters fast thors and STILL it was ridiculously close. I'm generally reluctant to scream "imba", but this push can only be countered when you "anticipate" it - if you try to counter it when seeing the first thor it's definitely too late. And the armory can be proxied practicly everywhere. I hate to say this, but this is yet ANOTHER push that only works....yes....because of (cloak) banshees. The thor-rush has basicly the exact same opening as a banshee-opening and requires a response that is basicly the exact opposite. The mere existence of banshees in the tech-tree screws up the scouting intel protoss gets - because if terran techs cloak, you want anything "but" a quick immortal.
I feel the same way after I crushed horribly by this thor pushed. It's way weaker than what's describe in the OP, but I'm completely off guard. In standard PvT lately, building more sentries is crucial to stop rines/marauders, and I built sentries and then expanding. I did scouts, but rines stop my probe from getting intels aside confirming that I saw a normal rines build. I did send another probe since I'm suspicious of drops or something unusual since no push come my way, bioballs push normally come way earlier. I managed to sneak an obs and saw thors, but it's way too late for me to respond. Sentries is completely useless against this build.
IMO, agression will work against this build, but again, scouts is the key. Perhaps getting obs earlier is good as anticipation.
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Regarding this build though, I basically did it since a month ago and relied on it to get into diamond without much effort at all. If your sole goal is to get into diamond without improving your game, this definitely is the way to go. It is very, very easy to do, nearly bothering on cheese, and most people before mid-high diamond level have no idea how to deal with it.
One warning though, if you are intending to rely on this build alone to get into diamond (i.e. do this build against anyone you meet), your game will deprove. Mine definitely did, and I became a worse gamer than I was even though I am ranked higher than I was. Thankfully, after you get into mid-high diamond and people learn to counter it, you 're forced to do other stuff instead of thor-pushing every single game, so unless you really improve your game, you aren't going to go any higher.
TLDR: This is a very strong build and it alone can get you into diamond no matter how skill-less you are, but if you rely on this build alone, you're probably not going to improve. In fact, you might deprove.
However, it is still a very very strong build and is worth busting out once in a while when you don't feel like working for your win  These are my thoughts after using it for an extended period of time.
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This isn't really a "get into diamond" build. I've been in diamond for ages and I use it all the time.
It's especially good now that most Protosses fast expand or they expect marine/banshees and get a Stargate. Thor's Hammer punishes their greed.
But back on topic, the guide seems pretty weak. Thors can be focus fired and killed somewhat quickly. If they retreat to the ramp and focus fire on 1 thor as you move up, it will die.
My build instead has 2 raxes. Instead of the strike cannon/armor upgrade, I mine less gas and get more minerals. The 2 thors are used to tank damage and break FF while marines add a good amount of DPS. My attack is probably also faster and has higher overall dps. It's basically like the marine/banshee build except you no longer have all squishy units.
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I often do a build very similar to this one on smaller maps but ending with a ghost instead of upgrades. I guess I should try this but ghosts are just so awesome against protoss.
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This build is definitely stoppable I tried it out against my 2300 protoss friend a few times. I won the first two times but then lost twice in a row. For the first push, if they retreat up the ramp, cancel/abandon expansion and then run around their expansion waiting for reinforcements and eventually pull their probes they can shut you down without losing too many probes (and since u brought scvs your still probably about even, granted I was only bringing about 5 scvs so maybe If I brought more it would be more effective, but then I feel like its really all-in. Protoss should focus on killing all the marines first as they die really easily, then they just have to focus down your thor if they have enough units or start killing off scvs until they do. Then they usually have colosus by your next push and your in a much tougher spot.
You have to force the colllosus to constnatly retreat by moving your thors towards them so they cant shoot your infantry, this means your thors basically just absorb damage while you try to get your infantry to kill the protoss gateway units. Needless to say this gets harder to do the larger the armies get and if their are cliffs around for collosus to abuse. Overall I probably wouldn't bother doing this build much as I feel like its inferior to a polt timing attack.
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EPT
