EPT[G] TvP 2 Thor Push - Page 4
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
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evoli
United States333 Posts
On November 17 2010 17:09 Dante08 wrote: That depends on the build he scouts, still you could build a bunker at your ramp to hold off any sort of early push to get your reactor up. I know they take 50seconds to build, but losing that 50seconds of building time is worth having more marines to support your 2 thors. I think without making the reactor you'll be able to get more marines out, for the 9 minute push. I don't know -- I'm too lazy to do the math now. I wholeheartedly encourage for people to try to make tweaks and variations to see what works for them and what doesn't. | ||
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Shirolol
England504 Posts
On November 17 2010 10:37 Janook wrote: Hey, As much as I enjoy the accolades, I am not ready to spread this on TL and would appreciate it if the OP would remove his post. No one else noticed this? I think it'd be nice to respect his wishes. Interesting build anyway, personally I have NEVER used the 250mm cannons but now I want to try it out! | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
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Quochobao
United States350 Posts
On November 17 2010 10:37 Janook wrote: Hey, As much as I enjoy the accolades, I am not ready to spread this on TL and would appreciate it if the OP would remove his post. Did anyone realize that the purported creator of this build wants this discussion to halt? It's really funny that his post went totally ignored amidst all the 'thoughtful strategic planning' we have here. | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On November 17 2010 20:02 Quochobao wrote: Did anyone realize that the purported creator of this build wants this discussion to halt? It's really funny that his post went totally ignored amidst all the 'thoughtful strategic planning' we have here. lol, at this point it doesn't matter what Janook wants the build isn't copyrighted, and as posted its been used before, if people want to discuss 2 thor timing attacks with strike cannons he can't stop them.... | ||
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Dr.Sin
Canada1126 Posts
I do a quick push at the front to harass the protoss with a couple marines and a marauder at the start, tech up to thor and attack again with 1-2 thors and marauders. I still need to keep testing it, but up to now its been fairly effective against roaches, stalker/robo builds and terrans that don't mass infantry. I've used mass speedlots when facing similar set ups (I play random). The suggestion made earlier to make VRs is good, you just need to micro the VRs a little bit. If you're facing a stimmed marine + thor build, I'd push into his base with a couple VRs only after he's moved out because they'll go down pretty quickly otherwise. | ||
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Weirdkid
Singapore2431 Posts
On November 17 2010 20:35 sob3k wrote: lol, at this point it doesn't matter what Janook wants the build isn't copyrighted, and as posted its been used before, if people want to discuss 2 thor timing attacks with strike cannons he can't stop them.... Maybe the thread starter should remove his name from the opener then. It's only right  | ||
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Dr.Sin
Canada1126 Posts
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JonnyLaw
United States3482 Posts
As others have said this thread is already going and discussing 2 thor pushes which is not unique regardless of Janook's feelings as someone could reopen the exact same thread. On the other side, posting your practice partner's build without their permission and tagging their name onto it without asking, well damn that's not very considerate. | ||
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kasumimi
Greece460 Posts
I feel unimpressed ;/ | ||
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Toothless`xelrae
94 Posts
On November 17 2010 09:21 misaTO wrote: Mass chargelots with +1 will do the trick. i reckon by the time you scouted T's armory and fac-techlab, you already have stalkers and have gone for a different tech path. transitioning to twilight council will not only ruin your tech path, but your army as well, less minerals. and you'd need stalkers too.what if the T blocked your choke with the thor and a bunch of scvs are behind it for repairs? whats your call then? =.= | ||
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Goliathsorrow
Italy317 Posts
On November 17 2010 19:51 Cheerio wrote: One base ranged colossi beats it. Just kite till the end of time. Also 1 gate FE build should work fine. Just abandon the nat and guard the ramp, dont go too probe heavy and resources mined from natural should result with bigger army for protoss. I would agree with this but doesn't the rush come too fast to get range ? Mind that I've only got rushed like this twice and I never had the chance to finish the range upgrade. When my friend comes back online I'm gonna test a few games with this strategy (txs OP) and see what happens but meanwhile I'll share my idea and see if u like it: Warp prism + Immortal, get the Immortal when Thor charges the strike cannon attack therefore cancelling it and wasting his DPS time by not doing anything. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On November 17 2010 17:00 Markwerf wrote: Immortals only work if you somehow mass them so you have at least double the amount compared to their thors, again quite a impossible tactic if you are waiting for an observer to scout what to do.. I can't test the timings right now, but wouldn't it be - theoretically - possible to chrono-boost two immortals and just WAIT for the thors to come up the ramp? Yes I know, thors have way higher range, but i can imagine, with proper positioning the thor stuck "behind" shouldn't be able to use his cannon-thingy, so there should always be immortals shooting. Of course the problem remains, that by seeing marines only there's a 50/50 shot he is going banshees...and then the early immortal would (again) lead to a buildorder-loss. Pretty much a coinflip concerning the scouting, it seems. Tbh I kinda agree with the OP insofar that I have tested opening with DTs a lot recently, both vs terrans going for timing-pushs and vs MM-playing terrans....day9 even did a daily on this, it's really a surprisingly stable opening. I don't think that just with scans from only one OC the build of the OP has a chance to succeed, you would have to spam turrets with the SCVs, which is possible btw. Although this is kinda a QQ, but I've found myself saying "screw it" more and more often when I suspect cute stuff from terran and just go for DTs. Since you can expand behind your harass quite reasonably while getting more gateways, the robo and - very important for the first battle afterwards - chargelots, it's nowhere near as dependend on a damaging harass as many would probably suppose. On November 17 2010 22:25 Goliathsorrow wrote: Warp prism + Immortal, get the Immortal when Thor charges the strike cannon attack therefore cancelling it and wasting his DPS time by not doing anything. Sorry, but - bad idea: why? because you could get a 2nd immortal instead of the warp prism. It's not about the ressources, it's literally about time....you need every second you can squeeze out of your robotics, spend all the chrono-boost you have on immortals and for the love of little jesus don't get supply-blocked. I would never waste robotics-production-time on getting a prism, UNLESS my opponent somehow decided to camp down my ramp with 2+ thors (but then again I'd probably get the prism to warp in a couple of zealots in his mineral line) | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
Pushing out with double Thors and Marines and a Hellion or two is strong, but until you get your first Thor you are amazingly vulnerable. Against Zerg you could get a few Roaches at your door with nothing to defend yourself with. It also has the problems of the Marines and Thors fighting for the same role: to be up front. You want Marines in front to soak the Zealot damage and protect the SCVs/Thors from Zealot surround and Immortals. The 7 range the Thor has over the 5 range of the Marine supports this. But, when you need to break an FF on a ramp, you have to send out the Thor in front, leaving it very vulnerable to focus fire. A bunker helps, but that generally gives away that you don't have much else to defend yourself with. | ||
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Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
On November 17 2010 23:32 Thezzy wrote: A bunker helps, but that generally gives away that you don't have much else to defend yourself with. but it will also trick the toss into at least worrying about a cloaked banshee rush. and the counters to that are an instaloss against the thorpush, and vice versa. but i agree with other who said that combat shields or stim would probably be better than vehicle plating. plating does nothing but reduce zealot dam by 2 per attack, but it doesnt make a notable difference on stalkers or immortals. in particular, stim on the marines would make it more easy to defend against vrs and to get up that ramp. | ||
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Rob28
Canada705 Posts
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Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
On November 17 2010 23:41 Rob28 wrote: I'm pretty sure a well-microed 4gate can beat this build 9 times out of 10. Especially with dt in the mix. 4gate with dt before the 9 minute mark? sry dude, but what are u smoking? this build is most vulnerable before the first thor comes out. u got nothing but unupgraded marines at that time. i think u will need at least 2 bunkers up your ramp if the toss hits that timing window with an attack. but if u scout it in time, it should be possible to be held off imho. | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
I also have the same problem as sleepingdog with the scouting. From my experience with my practice partners, if you see marines, it's 40% banshee, 40% thor, 10% hidden bio build, 10% tank. You need immortals if you 2/3 gate robo to hold off the thor push, but immortals are useless vs the banshee build. Plus, the observer doesn't get to his base until it's too late. Besides abusing a "bug" with the scv repair attack priority, it's also a very coin flip build. This is what i've resorted to doing vs marines and bunkers. I start an immortal and time it so that when my observer gets to his base, I have just enough time to decide whether to cancel it or not. This way, you can get 2 immortals by the time the 1 thor push happens. | ||
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Riot Janook
United States112 Posts
Firstly, regarding DTs and Hallucations. If you start saving you scans up at 8:00, you will have 2 scans available during your push. I don't know how many DTs Protoss could stagger at you, I need to test this a little more, but theorietically you could handle them. Furthermore, if you expand behind the push and build an OC, you will have a 3rd scan ready if you need it. Also, scans reveal hallucinations. If you see an unusual amount of immortals, and a bunch of gateway units, then you know something is up. Scan, reveal the halulcinationed immortals, and target the real ones. The +1 armor is crucial. This build was original intended for TvZ, and so I would get the armor to help tank the lings on the thors. The armor is equally good in TvP. Someone said you put the marines up front to tank. No. You put the thors up front, with repair, to tank, and keep your marines behind the thor to kill of the zealots. Armor on a Thor is particuarly effective against Zealots ( which are the primary DPS of Protoss gateway units) because Zealots attack twice. Regarding losing to an early push: No. There are many builds that just rely on marines to hold back early pushes. This build is nice in particular because you use that first helion to scout the opponent. If you scout on properly, you should arrive at his base while his warpgates are transforming. This is plenty of time to throw up a bunker in time for teh 2nd wave of warpgate units. Also, your thor will pop in time to defend as well. The first helion scout is important. You should be able to get into his base, see the entire layout, and if you feel like something is missing, add a bunker and start scouting the corners of the map. Lastly, if there is no robo bay, you don't need 250mm cannons. Instead, you add a tech lab on your barracks after you started your first thor and the armor upgrade and research stim. This delays the push by 15 seconds I think, but it's totally worth it and will alllow your marines to take out the zealots much quicker. A key point in the build is how you control your units while attacking. Pull 8 SCVs and have them follow 1 thor with auto repair on. Rally your rax and fact to the other thor, and tell all your marines to follow that thor. Select your two thors and put them in a control group. Select all your marines and put them in a control group. With the 2 thors selected, and with the repair thor in front, 1A to the opponent. Don't tell your scvs or marines to attack, have them remain following their repsective thors. If your Marines try to lunge ahead of the thors during combat to chase units, pull them back. You want the thors to tank. If there are any collosus or immortals, 250mm them. If there are a BUNCH of collosi or immortals, scan first, then 250mm. If you scouted no robo bay and got stim instead, stim your marines when the zealots engage. | ||
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