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On November 17 2010 10:10 Aoi_10 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 09:59 Severedevil wrote:On November 17 2010 09:31 XerrolAvengerII wrote:On November 17 2010 09:13 Jayrod wrote:
Its just the SCV repairing that needs to be fixed/nerfed/whatever. SCVs shouldnt be able to repair during combat. SCVs shouldnt be a combat unit. I very much disagree. scv's are the only way that terran can recover health on their mechanicals. While it is true that zerg dont regenerate quickly, and that shields don't regenerate in combat, the fact that a terran player must sacrifice income and resources (by taking scvs into combat) to keep their thors alive is a matter of importance and balance. When a terran player decides to repair, he loses the income from the scvs, and the resources directed to the repairing effort, not to mention risks total worker count. Also, consider that scvs built for the purpose of repairing take away from the resources that can be spent on the rest of the army. Yes. However, repair time is tied to build time (rather than cost). Thors build extremely quickly, so they repair at a ridiculous rate. At 60 seconds per, thors are actually one of the slowest-building units in the game. It just might not seem like it when a whole herd (flock? gaggle?) of SCVs are repairing one.
Well if you mean slow compared to a marine or SCV then duh.....
In the same time it takes to build a Carrier, you can get 2 Thors.
Thors are the quickest building Massive unit in the game, and really strong for cost, but they've rarely been used previously.
Colossi 75
Ultralisk 70
Broodlord 74-ish
Carrier 120
Cattlebruiser 90 ------>OP, OP!!!!
HuK (TM) ship 160
That was a bit of a tangent.
Very good job OP, this is indeed a thread worthy of [G]
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Seeing as how my win percentage against protoss is like 30% I think I will give this a shot! thanks
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Hey,
As much as I enjoy the accolades, I am not ready to spread this on TL and would appreciate it if the OP would remove his post.
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On November 17 2010 09:31 XerrolAvengerII wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 09:13 Jayrod wrote:
Its just the SCV repairing that needs to be fixed/nerfed/whatever. SCVs shouldnt be able to repair during combat. SCVs shouldnt be a combat unit. I very much disagree. scv's are the only way that terran can recover health on their mechanicals. While it is true that zerg dont regenerate quickly, and that shields don't regenerate in combat, the fact that a terran player must sacrifice income and resources (by taking scvs into combat) to keep their thors alive is a matter of importance and balance. When a terran player decides to repair, he loses the income from the scvs, and the resources directed to the repairing effort, not to mention risks total worker count. Also, consider that scvs built for the purpose of repairing take away from the resources that can be spent on the rest of the army.
so let them repair vehicles out of combat, make it free for all i care as you lose time where they could be mining, but making 1 races workers a super effective combat unit is inherently backwards. Toss shields dont regenerate DURING combat and they can never fully repair damage done to their main armor, only shields. SCVs should not be able to repair during combat on combat vehicles.. buildings yes, thors and BCs, no.
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On November 17 2010 10:39 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 09:31 XerrolAvengerII wrote:On November 17 2010 09:13 Jayrod wrote:
Its just the SCV repairing that needs to be fixed/nerfed/whatever. SCVs shouldnt be able to repair during combat. SCVs shouldnt be a combat unit. I very much disagree. scv's are the only way that terran can recover health on their mechanicals. While it is true that zerg dont regenerate quickly, and that shields don't regenerate in combat, the fact that a terran player must sacrifice income and resources (by taking scvs into combat) to keep their thors alive is a matter of importance and balance. When a terran player decides to repair, he loses the income from the scvs, and the resources directed to the repairing effort, not to mention risks total worker count. Also, consider that scvs built for the purpose of repairing take away from the resources that can be spent on the rest of the army. so let them repair vehicles out of combat, make it free for all i care as you lose time where they could be mining, but making 1 races workers a super effective combat unit is inherently backwards. Toss shields dont regenerate DURING combat and they can never fully repair damage done to their main armor, only shields. SCVs should not be able to repair during combat on combat vehicles.. buildings yes, thors and BCs, no.
maybe multiple workers shouldnt translate linearly into multiple times faster repair.
like... 3 scvs should not mean 3 times faster repair. maybe some kind of exponential decay system like in Age of Empires II when constructing buildings with several workers...
but thx for this thread, its a nice and refreshing tactic. gonna go try it out now^^
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I have answers to DTs and Hallucinations but I want to test them further.
Again, I would really appreciate it if the OP would delete his post, I'm not ready to broadcast this build, or take credit for others who laid the groundwork for it, without a fully fleshed out post and strategy.
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Im findingt his works against week toss players, but not against decent ones, they just use there ramp to effectively, where your scvs cant repair and just focus them down, then your screwed. Although my push comes right around the 9 min mark, is that two late?
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On November 17 2010 11:57 Janook wrote:
I have answers to DTs and Hallucinations but I want to test them further.
Again, I would really appreciate it if the OP would delete his post, I'm not ready to broadcast this build, or take credit for others who laid the groundwork for it, without a fully fleshed out post and strategy.
There we have it.
It's a strong build, but as mentioned, it's not exactly new.
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On November 17 2010 12:37 Darpa wrote:
Im findingt his works against week toss players, but not against decent ones, they just use there ramp to effectively, where your scvs cant repair and just focus them down, then your screwed. Although my push comes right around the 9 min mark, is that two late?
if they hide behind their ramp, just expand urself and prevent him from moving out to take his expo. this sets u up for a stronger lategame, in particular as thors make for a quite decent lategame tvp army!
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On November 17 2010 10:24 johanngrunt wrote:
Well if you mean slow compared to a marine or SCV then duh.....
In the same time it takes to build a Carrier, you can get 2 Thors.
Thors are the quickest building Massive unit in the game, and really strong for cost, but they've rarely been used previously.
Colossi 75
Ultralisk 70
Broodlord 74-ish
Carrier 120
Cattlebruiser 90 ------>OP, OP!!!!
HuK (TM) ship 160
That was a bit of a tangent.
Very good job OP, this is indeed a thread worthy of [G]
If we're just looking at massives, then fair enough.
I guess the most relevant stat is the ratio of hp to build time (i.e., repair speed). Which would make 6.67 hp/sec for the Thor, 6.11 hp/sec for the bruiser. Not too shabby.
As for the build itself, sounds trippy - I'll have to give it a try some time too.
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On November 17 2010 09:57 sob3k wrote:
If you get hallu and 1-2 sentry, you can hallucinate several more immortals and make it basically impossible for the T to figure out which ones to cannon.
Unless of course he can scanner sweep  .
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I like opening one gate robo expand, and if i scout thors, throw down another 2 robos ASAP.
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I like this build seems quite strong, although u could maybe squeeze out 50 more gas for a reactor on your barracks? This way you could have alot more marines with your push to deal with the protoss units
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On November 17 2010 13:54 Dante08 wrote:
I like this build seems quite strong, although u could maybe squeeze out 50 more gas for a reactor on your barracks? This way you could have alot more marines with your push to deal with the protoss units
The problem isn't being so limited on gas that you can't get a reactor, but that reactors take such a long time to make. If you were to make an early reactor you wouldn't be able to make marines for quite some time. Seeing as you're only making marines until you're making Thors you'd be left really vulnerable to early aggression.
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Going to try this out. =_=
Screw you, Protoss!
How would this build also hold up in TvZ? Considering Zerg often have a hard time dealing with Thors and marines are great support stopping zerglings and mutalisks and providing extra damage against everything else.
And maybe not those exact timings but different ones. <_<
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On November 17 2010 10:10 Aoi_10 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 09:59 Severedevil wrote:On November 17 2010 09:31 XerrolAvengerII wrote:On November 17 2010 09:13 Jayrod wrote:
Its just the SCV repairing that needs to be fixed/nerfed/whatever. SCVs shouldnt be able to repair during combat. SCVs shouldnt be a combat unit. I very much disagree. scv's are the only way that terran can recover health on their mechanicals. While it is true that zerg dont regenerate quickly, and that shields don't regenerate in combat, the fact that a terran player must sacrifice income and resources (by taking scvs into combat) to keep their thors alive is a matter of importance and balance. When a terran player decides to repair, he loses the income from the scvs, and the resources directed to the repairing effort, not to mention risks total worker count. Also, consider that scvs built for the purpose of repairing take away from the resources that can be spent on the rest of the army. Yes. However, repair time is tied to build time (rather than cost). Thors build extremely quickly, so they repair at a ridiculous rate. At 60 seconds per, thors are actually one of the slowest-building units in the game. It just might not seem like it when a whole herd (flock? gaggle?) of SCVs are repairing one.
lol of course it's 'one of the slowest-building unit" it's frkn tier 2.5/3 however you wanna look at it.
It's the FASTEST built per population in the game. at 60s for 6 food. Pretty sure this is a much more important measure than just saying the Thor builds slower than the zergling.
@op, i used to think Z had it bad against this Thor/repair bs lol. But then realise we have banelings early. As P, your gonna have to use blink stalkers and shift-queue the scv's while blinking out. You should abuse the fact that Thors are so slow, and engage them as far away from your base as possible giving you more running space. Stalkers are faster than all units in that composition. If that doesn't work, spam chargelots and use hold position? lol iunno lol
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The easiest counter to this build is fast voidrays. Voidrays & zealots demolish this build as marines without upgrades die quite fast to the zealots while they have trouble even reaching the voidray.
The problem of course is that you will rarely if ever be able to get voidrays as a reaction to this build, because a stargate opening is pretty lousy most of the time (besides the terran can switch to 1-1-1 instantly if they would somehow scout your stargate before they finished the armory).
Immortals only work if you somehow mass them so you have at least double the amount compared to their thors, again quite a impossible tactic if you are waiting for an observer to scout what to do..
Range colossi offcourse demolish this build as well, it's actually possible to get them against this variation of the build but this one actually pushes quite slow, the better build is imo that of jinro -> proxy factory with a 1 thor push, completing strike cannon during the push.
In fact this particular build is rubbish, plating on the thor is complete crap and utterly useless. You shouldn't have the intention to keep making mech units if somehow the push fails as besides this push mech just sucks. Instead of getting plating you can get either a 2nd rax faster (with later 2nd gas) or just get a reactor on the first rax and push with way more marines. Plating does virtually nothing against stalkers and immortals and the zealots rarely hit the thor anyway because of the scv's...
Like I said before this rush is only strong because of a screwed attack priority with zealots, if zealots would just properly attack scv's this would be terribly easy to fend off with just mass zealots and perhaps 1 immortal.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=145475
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On November 17 2010 14:19 evoli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 13:54 Dante08 wrote:
I like this build seems quite strong, although u could maybe squeeze out 50 more gas for a reactor on your barracks? This way you could have alot more marines with your push to deal with the protoss units The problem isn't being so limited on gas that you can't get a reactor, but that reactors take such a long time to make. If you were to make an early reactor you wouldn't be able to make marines for quite some time. Seeing as you're only making marines until you're making Thors you'd be left really vulnerable to early aggression.
That depends on the build he scouts, still you could build a bunker at your ramp to hold off any sort of early push to get your reactor up. I know they take 50seconds to build, but losing that 50seconds of building time is worth having more marines to support your 2 thors.
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haha the funny part is, my buddy was just working out the timings against Hard AI and he attacked against a HUGE army of the computers and was like 'omg this push is about to fail' over vent. When he watched replay the computer had made 6 sentries and like 8 zeals then hallucinated a bunch of stuff... stalkers and stuff... really funny and thought provoking.
i liked the previous suggestion about the decay on scv repair. make it happen blizz!
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In the replay pack the game between mewtwo and janook shows exactly why this rush works... The zealots bug out so easily. That game is a perfect example of how stupid zealot AI is in this case. I think mewtwo tries to do hold position micro in that but NONE of his 9 or so zealots attack in that game hence he lost, if they worked properly the rush would be repelled EASILY as he did do in fact the proper counter (mass gateway units, minimal amount of sentries, cut probes and chrono gates non stop).
I think there really needs to come a petition to blizzard to fix attack priority ASAP, this bug is terribly annoying with this strategy getting more and more popular each day.
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EPT
