EPTblink stalker openings as well can do okay, forcing the thors to run back to defend...
it's a decent build, but I feel like there are a lot of things that your P players haven't tried.
[G] TvP 2 Thor Push - Page 2
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GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
blink stalker openings as well can do okay, forcing the thors to run back to defend... it's a decent build, but I feel like there are a lot of things that your P players haven't tried. | ||
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Crosswind
United States279 Posts
-Cross | ||
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grapez
United States64 Posts
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XerrolAvengerII
United States510 Posts
On November 17 2010 09:13 Jayrod wrote: Its just the SCV repairing that needs to be fixed/nerfed/whatever. SCVs shouldnt be able to repair during combat. SCVs shouldnt be a combat unit. I very much disagree. scv's are the only way that terran can recover health on their mechanicals. While it is true that zerg dont regenerate quickly, and that shields don't regenerate in combat, the fact that a terran player must sacrifice income and resources (by taking scvs into combat) to keep their thors alive is a matter of importance and balance. When a terran player decides to repair, he loses the income from the scvs, and the resources directed to the repairing effort, not to mention risks total worker count. Also, consider that scvs built for the purpose of repairing take away from the resources that can be spent on the rest of the army. | ||
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gillon
Sweden1578 Posts
On November 17 2010 09:13 Jayrod wrote: Its just the SCV repairing that needs to be fixed/nerfed/whatever. SCVs shouldnt be able to repair during combat. SCVs shouldnt be a combat unit. Rant aside thor timing pushes are always scary. Usually when ive held off pushes like this I lose my expansion in the process. Sometimes im close enough to storm to make things interesting, sometimes not. Most often I just lose to it. It just really depends on if they bring the SCVs or not. If they dont, its simple, if they bring like 6-8 you know if you survive without losing too many workers youll be able to respond before he comes back for the killing blow I disagree, SCVs should be usable in combat. | ||
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tarath
United States377 Posts
Once his thor popped he killed off my push but I had expanded and had killed 6 or 7 repairing SCVs and went on for an easy win. If you let him build to 2 thors you will just die I think, not sure what toss can do. Its also unscoutable and hard to tell apart from fast banshees by scouting the front. I just like to 4gate blind on Steppes vs T and was able to win. | ||
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Victim
United States188 Posts
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monk
United States8477 Posts
Three-Gate Robo: Yay or nay? Nay. Three-Gate Robo would do a better job holding off Janook’s push than Two-Gate Robo, obviously, but I still think you’d end up losing to his first push. Thors with Strike Cannons just deal with the Immortals so handily. After the immortals get one-shotted you’ll have to deal with Thors who have infinite life because of repair and marines blasting through your gateway units. Three-Gate Robo isn’t the most economic build of all time either. On the off chance you do survive the Terran’s first push (and every time Janook won he won with his first push) the Terran will be up an expansion because you can’t comfortably expand with Three-Gate Robo and be producing out of all the structures. The terran will have lost 6-10 scvs doing this push, so if you hold it off, you'll be way ahead. Also, 3 gate robo is about as equally economical as a 2 gate robo. The real difference between the 2 is flexibility. Other random thoughts: Also, the more sentries you have, the worse off you are vs this build. Use the hold pos zealot trick to kill scvs. This build is strong because from a normal 2/3 gate robo build, your observer gets to his base right when the push comes, so you have minimal time to prepare. I also agree that this strategy is kinda abusive and that SCVs should get some attack priority. | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
I was talking about this build with a friend and he suggested hallucination as a counter, and I actually think it could work.... The strength of this build vs immortals is based on your ability to strike cannon and instantly remove two of them. If you get hallu and 1-2 sentry, you can hallucinate several more immortals and make it basically impossible for the T to figure out which ones to cannon. plus when they use strike cannons on the hallucinations, the thor is locked down and has 0dps while the real immortals get free hits in. obv you would do this with a 2-3gate robo opening and go very light on the sentry, as they are just for hallucinate basically. | ||
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QuantumTheory
New Zealand188 Posts
On November 17 2010 09:28 Crosswind wrote: ...I like the "Socke stomped on this" argument. Because, if you watch that game, Socke was behind after he "stomped" on it, and managed to play his way back into the game. -Cross haha, true. But you missed the fact that he made LOTS of mistakes and still won. The most critical was missing the probe surround, he would have came out ahead if he just a moved them from his expo. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On November 17 2010 09:31 XerrolAvengerII wrote: I very much disagree. scv's are the only way that terran can recover health on their mechanicals. While it is true that zerg dont regenerate quickly, and that shields don't regenerate in combat, the fact that a terran player must sacrifice income and resources (by taking scvs into combat) to keep their thors alive is a matter of importance and balance. When a terran player decides to repair, he loses the income from the scvs, and the resources directed to the repairing effort, not to mention risks total worker count. Also, consider that scvs built for the purpose of repairing take away from the resources that can be spent on the rest of the army. Yes. However, repair time is tied to build time (rather than cost). Thors build extremely quickly, so they repair at a ridiculous rate. | ||
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NadaSound
United States227 Posts
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Aoi_10
United States155 Posts
On November 17 2010 09:59 Severedevil wrote: Yes. However, repair time is tied to build time (rather than cost). Thors build extremely quickly, so they repair at a ridiculous rate. At 60 seconds per, thors are actually one of the slowest-building units in the game. It just might not seem like it when a whole herd (flock? gaggle?) of SCVs are repairing one. | ||
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gavinashun
101 Posts
Question: Tactically, how do you micro if protoss forcefields ramp or tries to cut 1 Thor off, and can then deal with each separately? | ||
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azhang
United States178 Posts
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tarath
United States377 Posts
On November 17 2010 10:10 gavinashun wrote: Interesting, thanks. Question: Tactically, how do you micro if protoss forcefields ramp or tries to cut 1 Thor off, and can then deal with each separately? Thors break forcefields. | ||
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Shlowpoke
United States102 Posts
The Protoss players in the replays had a few issues. The one replay that really comes to mind is that one where Mewtwo did a 1 Gate FE into a good gateway unit mix. He was up by 10 food, he even used Guardian Shield (unlike the rest of the P players) but he insisted on attacking into that narrow choke which made his Zealots near-useless...and then he did something weird with his micro that made his Zealots stand around and do nothing. Protoss could have held that easily with better micro/positioning. And that game with Socke is a good example of why you should never be able to break a good Protoss's ramp with this build. Pull some probes if necessary, FF the marines away from the Thors and focus fire them down. That said, I think Thor openings like this have a lot of potential for getting your natural up and transitioning into mech or thor-banshee play. A 2-3 Thor push with 250mm if executed well may end up being near-impossible to defend for an early expand with a Robo relying on Immortals for defense. Then you can just contain at the ramp and extend your economic advantage. IMO, the +1 mech armor is a better choice than +1 attack because Thors already overkill gateway units, but I think stim or combat shield would be a better choice simply because you have more Marines than Thors and stim will help you deal with Void Rays more easily. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On November 17 2010 10:10 Aoi_10 wrote: At 60 seconds per, thors are actually one of the slowest-building units in the game. It just might not seem like it when a whole herd (flock? gaggle?) of SCVs are repairing one. At 300/200 and 6 food, Thors are one of the most expensive units in the game. Their build time is the same as a Void Ray/Banshee, and very slightly more than an Immortal. 60 game-seconds is very fast for a 6 food powerhouse. | ||
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EchOne
United States2906 Posts
On November 17 2010 10:10 gavinashun wrote: Interesting, thanks. Question: Tactically, how do you micro if protoss forcefields ramp or tries to cut 1 Thor off, and can then deal with each separately? I'm under the impression that the rush is designed to kill the Protoss natural while getting your own; you don't really need to kill him outright if he decides to sac his expo and save his army. Of course if he loses his entire army attempting to defend your push, feel free to finish it there. | ||
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shakenbake
United States207 Posts
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