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I find it very hard to believe that not one toss player that played didn't think to make a warp prism to lift the immortal and negate the stun and damage. Also with a warp prism you can zeal the marines behind the Thor by gating on the other side of the ramp.
The prism isn't even hard to get out at that stage.
Regardless, I had friends try this build on me last night a few times, and each time I ever caught them at a ramp, they lost. You should also not leave out sentries from your composition, because you can block the Thor by force fielding the SCVs up against it, separating the marines from the rest of the group, halving this early push's effectiveness. Generally, if you fight in a crammed place, you should almost always win this, losing several zeals and very few other units. Pulling probes is also immensely helpful if you couldn't make anything happen with your ff.
Excuse my spelling errors and any other atrocities in this post.
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the only thing i wanna know is why these guys that say "lol i beat this today against my 2900 diamond friend!" don't post the goddamn replay.
to you guys talking about warp prism shennanigans:
- if you watch socke's replay, he barely has a immortal out when the push comes. if you skip the observer and go straight to immortal, it might possible to get one immortal and a warp prism when the thor arrives.
- warp prisms are very fragile, specially against marines and thors, if you atempt to fly it over his army, you will lose it for sure in less than one sec.
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Why would you automatically assume that any Protoss player would suicide his prism into the marines? That's definitely the last thing you want to do, suicide units that is, in any game. The whole point of the warp prism is that it is cheap, comes out quickly, offers mobility for your army and gives you a positioning advantage, and it NEGATES 250 strike.
Chronoboost makes protoss buildings produce units faster, and as such chronoing your immortal and prisms makes them come out very quickly.
You shouldn't count put prism play because they aren't popular. Like any unit, they require a certain skill set to use effectively.
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I also agree that this strategy is kinda abusive and that SCVs should get some attack priority.
Only this. The problem is that its extremely hard to pick off the scvs in time. If scvs that repair in combat would get high attack priority it would solve a lot of the issues. If u want ur units to focus fire the repaired unit thats still easy to accomplish since thors (or bcs) are so effin big.
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On November 17 2010 09:57 sob3k wrote:
NOTICE ME
I was talking about this build with a friend and he suggested hallucination as a counter, and I actually think it could work....
The strength of this build vs immortals is based on your ability to strike cannon and instantly remove two of them. If you get hallu and 1-2 sentry, you can hallucinate several more immortals and make it basically impossible for the T to figure out which ones to cannon.
plus when they use strike cannons on the hallucinations, the thor is locked down and has 0dps while the real immortals get free hits in.
obv you would do this with a 2-3gate robo opening and go very light on the sentry, as they are just for hallucinate basically.
Best bet if you see more immortals than is possible is to use a scan. Scan reveals hallucinations, and the time and money you've invested into sentries and the research probably cuts into your muscle. Not a terrible thought, if he doesn't have a scan handy he could be in trouble, but a little too dicey to rely on.
Once colossi have the range upgrade they can micro outside of the thor's range 6 so they don't get hit by strike cannon. Not sure if that's feasible to have at the timing of the first push, and you would be most likely in the dark, but after the first push that's how Socke handled the thors in that game on Shakuras.
BTW, the builds weren't the same. Close, but not the same. The Terran attacked with ONE Thor and marines. If he had waited for the second Thor it would have been a much different battle. Maybe socke would have had more defenses and crushed it cold, or maybe he would have lost outright, i'm not sure but there is a big difference between 1 Thor and 2, and the 60 seconds you delay your timing attack matters a lot. They are not the same scenarios, so "Socke crushed this" is false. 1 Thor did manage to kill the expo, which was a success. I think he could have pulled back and milked that advantage to a victory but the long distance and Socke's awesomeness came into play as well. Janook's 2 thor attack will have much more muscle behind it, but also comes later. For better or worse, his build is different from the one Socke beat. Although to be honest, Socke was pretty battered after that first attack and it took some excellent colossus, high templar, and carrier control to pull it off. The transition into mass tanks didn't go *that* terribly but I think it was a bad idea. You really saw their weakness against zealots and blink stalkers. A transition into good ole mmmg with vikings probably would have faired better but we can talk about transitions all day. If you are upgrading mech armor and strike cannon you may be inclined to keep making thors as part of your overall strategy but you can make adjustments, like skipping armor if you want to go straight bio.
I really see this "build" as just an opening, a damn aggressive one, and if you take it for what it is you'll have more success. The similar 1 Thor opening used against socke, if you take it just as an opening, was pretty successful. Who cares if he threw his advantage away later by massing tanks?It doesn't make his <opening> any worse.
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On November 18 2010 00:55 Goliathsorrow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 00:36 eu.exodus wrote:
warp prisms that die like flies.
Near marines and thors.
Carrying one of your few robo units.
Are you serious? Marines are behind Thor and Thor doesn't really do much damage against warp prism alone. But go ahead and propose me better options than blind DT rushes and I will read them with pleasure <.<
do you even play this game? Honestly... thor gets a MASSIVE damage increase against warp prism, marines will also be in front of or parallel to the thor or be dealing no damage whatsoever (which is why they will be forward), immortals have a range of 5, so in order to pick them up you have to move into 5 range. Warp prism is an awful idea against a race with a 50 mineral unit that shoots up. The reason Warp prism combat micro is used at all in some NEW PvZ ideas is because of Z's lack of accessible anti-air.
Above all else, I dont understand why it should be okay for the terran to turn on auto repair, while the protoss is sitting there doing ineffective warp prism (cutting combat units to do so against a TIMED push) tricks, and thoughtfully laying down forcefields every time they engage any terran army... yes even vs thors, who can stomp them out, but are often too clumsy if you put forcefields in a way that the rines block them.
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thanks for sharing this. I appreciate it and will check it out later when I get home. Would this be good in tvt?
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On November 19 2010 05:46 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 00:55 Goliathsorrow wrote:On November 18 2010 00:36 eu.exodus wrote:
warp prisms that die like flies.
Near marines and thors.
Carrying one of your few robo units.
Are you serious? Marines are behind Thor and Thor doesn't really do much damage against warp prism alone. But go ahead and propose me better options than blind DT rushes and I will read them with pleasure <.< do you even play this game? Honestly... thor gets a MASSIVE damage increase against warp prism, marines will also be in front of or parallel to the thor or be dealing no damage whatsoever (which is why they will be forward), immortals have a range of 5, so in order to pick them up you have to move into 5 range. Warp prism is an awful idea against a race with a 50 mineral unit that shoots up. The reason Warp prism combat micro is used at all in some NEW PvZ ideas is because of Z's lack of accessible anti-air. Above all else, I dont understand why it should be okay for the terran to turn on auto repair, while the protoss is sitting there doing ineffective warp prism (cutting combat units to do so against a TIMED push) tricks, and thoughtfully laying down forcefields every time they engage any terran army... yes even vs thors, who can stomp them out, but are often too clumsy if you put forcefields in a way that the rines block them.
Wow, so aggressive, calm down boy.
What MASSIVE damage increase are u talking about ? Warp Prisms are armored and will not get shot in 2 hits like a Mutalisk.
No, Marines will not be in front of the Thor, that would kill one of the points of having a Thor with ur rush/push, and every dps used on the prism is dps that is not hitting ur gateway units/immortal.
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On November 18 2010 23:39 pxds wrote:
the only thing i wanna know is why these guys that say "lol i beat this today against my 2900 diamond friend!" don't post the goddamn replay.
to you guys talking about warp prism shennanigans:
- if you watch socke's replay, he barely has a immortal out when the push comes. if you skip the observer and go straight to immortal, it might possible to get one immortal and a warp prism when the thor arrives.
- warp prisms are very fragile, specially against marines and thors, if you atempt to fly it over his army, you will lose it for sure in less than one sec.
socke always builds 2 observers right away as far as I know. I think if he poked with units he could get the same information for less resources and get a faster immortal. Thats one huge beef I have with Socke's play... he scouts like a terran player, as though he has the privelege of maphacking a part of the map to see EXACTLY whats coming rather than extrapolating and narrowing down what you have to prepare for and THEN having the units to do so, which isnt possible with double observer rush
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What I don't understand is why its acceptable design to allow SCV auto repair to both stack & be used in combat. It seems intuitive that if terran mechanical units are balanced in such a way that they can be competitive without auto-repair, then when you allow a player to make X amount of mech, pull all scv's and attack, that attack is going to be disproportionally difficult to defeat (imba). I really think auto-repair is hurting this game. Not only is the thor one of the most versatile, cost effective and supply effective units in the game, but you make it nearly immune to melee and allow it to be healed faster than a small army can do damage.
I think game design like this which encourages all-in plays should be turfed.
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Terran front-engagement mechanical units are not competitive without auto-repair. Thors and BCs are good BECAUSE they have such a wide radius, high health, and high armor, allowing them to be repaired by many SCVs and tank plenty of damage.
If you want to nerf auto-repair, you better buff the units.
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On November 19 2010 06:09 Goliathsorrow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 05:46 Jayrod wrote:On November 18 2010 00:55 Goliathsorrow wrote:On November 18 2010 00:36 eu.exodus wrote:
warp prisms that die like flies.
Near marines and thors.
Carrying one of your few robo units.
Are you serious? Marines are behind Thor and Thor doesn't really do much damage against warp prism alone. But go ahead and propose me better options than blind DT rushes and I will read them with pleasure <.< do you even play this game? Honestly... thor gets a MASSIVE damage increase against warp prism, marines will also be in front of or parallel to the thor or be dealing no damage whatsoever (which is why they will be forward), immortals have a range of 5, so in order to pick them up you have to move into 5 range. Warp prism is an awful idea against a race with a 50 mineral unit that shoots up. The reason Warp prism combat micro is used at all in some NEW PvZ ideas is because of Z's lack of accessible anti-air. Above all else, I dont understand why it should be okay for the terran to turn on auto repair, while the protoss is sitting there doing ineffective warp prism (cutting combat units to do so against a TIMED push) tricks, and thoughtfully laying down forcefields every time they engage any terran army... yes even vs thors, who can stomp them out, but are often too clumsy if you put forcefields in a way that the rines block them. Wow, so aggressive, calm down boy. What MASSIVE damage increase are u talking about ? Warp Prisms are armored and will not get shot in 2 hits like a Mutalisk. No, Marines will not be in front of the Thor, that would kill one of the points of having a Thor with ur rush/push, and every dps used on the prism is dps that is not hitting ur gateway units/immortal.
The thor is NOT in front and cannot be in front and still damage the protoss units, other than a couple of zealots, which die too fast to dent the marines. If you put all your rines behind the thor, this push fails. If you have your marines in a position to DPS, you are fine. The zeals are a non-factor at this stage of the game because of one thing that not many terran players are forced to utilize, micro. I think if you've actually seen this build in action or used it yourself you might see what I mean, but honestly the zealots die so quickly or cut so much into more appropriate units that they quickly become a liability... Also since the build gets +1 armor by the time of the attack, zealot DPS is cut down even further due to their double attack.
It seems that alot of people on this thread have faced thor timing pushes, but this push is very very specific. If you've ever fought a 1 thor with marine/scv push.. its NOT this build. If you've ever fought a 2 thor without strike cannons and armor with marines its NOT this build. This is a very unique and well thought out timing push. My hat goes off to the creator of it and its going to be giving protoss a headache for quite a while. I hope they dont nerf the thor because some people i play with (im lookin at you martin!) always cry imbalance whenever theres a unit they cant use or deal with.
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On November 19 2010 06:38 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 06:09 Goliathsorrow wrote:On November 19 2010 05:46 Jayrod wrote:On November 18 2010 00:55 Goliathsorrow wrote:On November 18 2010 00:36 eu.exodus wrote:
warp prisms that die like flies.
Near marines and thors.
Carrying one of your few robo units.
Are you serious? Marines are behind Thor and Thor doesn't really do much damage against warp prism alone. But go ahead and propose me better options than blind DT rushes and I will read them with pleasure <.< do you even play this game? Honestly... thor gets a MASSIVE damage increase against warp prism, marines will also be in front of or parallel to the thor or be dealing no damage whatsoever (which is why they will be forward), immortals have a range of 5, so in order to pick them up you have to move into 5 range. Warp prism is an awful idea against a race with a 50 mineral unit that shoots up. The reason Warp prism combat micro is used at all in some NEW PvZ ideas is because of Z's lack of accessible anti-air. Above all else, I dont understand why it should be okay for the terran to turn on auto repair, while the protoss is sitting there doing ineffective warp prism (cutting combat units to do so against a TIMED push) tricks, and thoughtfully laying down forcefields every time they engage any terran army... yes even vs thors, who can stomp them out, but are often too clumsy if you put forcefields in a way that the rines block them. Wow, so aggressive, calm down boy. What MASSIVE damage increase are u talking about ? Warp Prisms are armored and will not get shot in 2 hits like a Mutalisk. No, Marines will not be in front of the Thor, that would kill one of the points of having a Thor with ur rush/push, and every dps used on the prism is dps that is not hitting ur gateway units/immortal. The thor is NOT in front and cannot be in front and still damage the protoss units, other than a couple of zealots, which die too fast to dent the marines. If you put all your rines behind the thor, this push fails. If you have your marines in a position to DPS, you are fine. The zeals are a non-factor at this stage of the game because of one thing that not many terran players are forced to utilize, micro. I think if you've actually seen this build in action or used it yourself you might see what I mean, but honestly the zealots die so quickly or cut so much into more appropriate units that they quickly become a liability... Also since the build gets +1 armor by the time of the attack, zealot DPS is cut down even further due to their double attack. It seems that alot of people on this thread have faced thor timing pushes, but this push is very very specific. If you've ever fought a 1 thor with marine/scv push.. its NOT this build. If you've ever fought a 2 thor without strike cannons and armor with marines its NOT this build. This is a very unique and well thought out timing push. My hat goes off to the creator of it and its going to be giving protoss a headache for quite a while. I hope they dont nerf the thor because some people i play with (im lookin at you martin!) always cry imbalance whenever theres a unit they cant use or deal with.
On November 17 2010 23:53 Janook wrote:Someone said you put the marines up front to tank. No. You put the thors up front, with repair, to tank, and keep your marines behind the thor to kill of the zealots.
So u know it better than this guy ?
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On November 19 2010 06:09 Goliathsorrow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 05:46 Jayrod wrote:On November 18 2010 00:55 Goliathsorrow wrote:On November 18 2010 00:36 eu.exodus wrote:
warp prisms that die like flies.
Near marines and thors.
Carrying one of your few robo units.
Are you serious? Marines are behind Thor and Thor doesn't really do much damage against warp prism alone. But go ahead and propose me better options than blind DT rushes and I will read them with pleasure <.< do you even play this game? Honestly... thor gets a MASSIVE damage increase against warp prism, marines will also be in front of or parallel to the thor or be dealing no damage whatsoever (which is why they will be forward), immortals have a range of 5, so in order to pick them up you have to move into 5 range. Warp prism is an awful idea against a race with a 50 mineral unit that shoots up. The reason Warp prism combat micro is used at all in some NEW PvZ ideas is because of Z's lack of accessible anti-air. Above all else, I dont understand why it should be okay for the terran to turn on auto repair, while the protoss is sitting there doing ineffective warp prism (cutting combat units to do so against a TIMED push) tricks, and thoughtfully laying down forcefields every time they engage any terran army... yes even vs thors, who can stomp them out, but are often too clumsy if you put forcefields in a way that the rines block them. Wow, so aggressive, calm down boy. What MASSIVE damage increase are u talking about ? Warp Prisms are armored and will not get shot in 2 hits like a Mutalisk. No, Marines will not be in front of the Thor, that would kill one of the points of having a Thor with ur rush/push, and every dps used on the prism is dps that is not hitting ur gateway units/immortal.
This post is pretty much spot on.
Also, putting the Marines in front of the Thor is how the Stalkers and Zealots pick off your Marines and then you have nowhere near enough DPS to break the toss. The WHOLE POINT of getting VEHICLE armor, is so that your THOR is a better tank than before, so your SCVs can keep him alive indefinitely (except vs Immortals, that's why you get 250MM Strike Cannon)and the Marines can clean up the Zealots/Stalkers.
The hero of this thread, Janook, even explained it himself that you use the Thor to tank and the Marines to clean.
Also, Zealots are a HUGE factor in this stage of the game, ESPECIALLY when it is this early. The earlier in the game we are, the more emphasis there is on each unit, and the more effective single fatty hard hitting units are (read: Protoss). This is why you get the vehicle plating, to deal with the high DPS of the Zealots smashing your Thor.
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very good build i started using thors much more against protoss after the medivac speed nerf
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hmmm, maybe the one base carrier rush (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=155731) might hold this off, the carrier is out at around 8min. Janook should ask Protoss_Carrier to test it.
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On November 17 2010 09:21 misaTO wrote:
Mass chargelots with +1 will do the trick.
It'd be nice if they did, but 6 SCV's repairing will cause your zealots to bug out. Until blizzard decides to fix this, people will continue to exploit this build.
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On November 19 2010 06:36 Janook wrote:
Terran front-engagement mechanical units are not competitive without auto-repair. Thors and BCs are good BECAUSE they have such a wide radius, high health, and high armor, allowing them to be repaired by many SCVs and tank plenty of damage.
If you want to nerf auto-repair, you better buff the units.
Excuse me? Exactly what about thors makes them not competetive alone? Is it their 400hp, their 7 range, their ability to crush large ground units while firing aoe splash damage against light fliers, the fact that they can break down forcefields and cannot be lifted by gravity beams, or the fact that they build 10 seconds quicker that colossi and 15 quicker than ultralisks?
Auto repair was never intended to be used to cheese out melee units.
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It is my personal experience that Thors are not cost effective without repair.
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Great thread. ill definitely watch the replays when I get home. I see its not likely viable vs zerg, but what about tvt? the questions been proposed already but I haven't seen a satisfactory. answer..
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EPT
