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On November 19 2010 23:48 Janook wrote:Here are more recent replays of the more refined build against ladder opponents and a friend who was specifically trying to figure out how to stop it. These protoss opponents are all 2.2k+ players. Additionally, two of the games, the opponent was able to hold the push, and I show how to transition out of this into a late game composition of Thor/Banshee/Marine. (Still working on smoothing that out.) http://www.2shared.com/file/w6iS2RA9/Janook_2_Thor_TvP.html
awesome, thanks. gonna watch it now. btw am i the only one who took almost a minute to figure out where on the 2shared site u can actually download the file? oO
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How well does a flying barracks cover up a Thor?
Can you cover your SCVs and Thor with a barracks to effectively give it a hell of a lot more HP?
Would prevent Zealots from targeting SCVs, prevent Thor being focused fire as much as possible. You'd have to move slower than my grandmother drives though. lol
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On November 20 2010 01:12 uAir wrote:
How well does a flying barracks cover up a Thor?
Can you cover your SCVs and Thor with a barracks to effectively give it a hell of a lot more HP?
Would prevent Zealots from targeting SCVs, prevent Thor being focused fire as much as possible. You'd have to move slower than my grandmother drives though. lol
You can still zoom in/rotate to target.
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On November 19 2010 23:48 Janook wrote:Here are more recent replays of the more refined build against ladder opponents and a friend who was specifically trying to figure out how to stop it. These protoss opponents are all 2.2k+ players. Additionally, two of the games, the opponent was able to hold the push, and I show how to transition out of this into a late game composition of Thor/Banshee/Marine. (Still working on smoothing that out.) http://www.2shared.com/file/w6iS2RA9/Janook_2_Thor_TvP.html
You can speed up the push by about 15-20seconds if you go refinery first or add 2nd refinery at 16. Gas is really taxing you by the time you make your 2nd Thor.
On the other hand, your BO gives more mineral slack to add in a bunker if required.
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I just tried this build out, I was super sloppy and it was late, but I completely rolled a 2 gate robo
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If you target the SCVs and/or Marines first the scvs will not surround the thor for repair. Then zealots, and a few probes if you FE get an easy surround on the Thor. No more repair. Clean up from there.
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I think SCV repair is retarded for pushes like this. SCV shouldnt be able to repair while the unit is attacking (makes sense, how do you repair a tank or machine while its systems are in use).
thinking about doing writeup justifying this with replays and statistics.
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That's funny, I read your post as "SCV repair is intended for pushes like this" and nodded my head.
I firmly believe SCV repair is working as intended. This push would get absolutely smashed into oblivion without it, despite including upgraded, incredibly powerful units, and equal food armies. Does that make sense?
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On November 19 2010 17:21 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 11:06 s4m222 wrote:
What about vs the KCDC 1gate FE build.
The FE transitions into either 3 gate robo or 4 gate - delayed robo. Assuming protoss scouts that SOMETHING is up. (I didnt get any scent of this, since it was with a practice buddy and he has never used thors before in our match ups)
Chrono gateways + one immortal and a few probes its defendable. Although i failed to defend it. I see what i did wrong.
Just had this done to me and it was even a Proxy fac. Had i macro'ed a little harder/ maybe throw in a immortal - instead of probing so hard it would have been very stoppable.
He hit me with 6+ marines and 2 thors with scvs. I had 3 stalkers and 8 zealots or so. Had i macroed harder I could have had at least 4-7 more units making the stop possible
(lol also i didnt know how to zoom / tilt camera so at 1 point it was 1 thor + 4-6 scvs vs 6-7 zealots and i couldnt Kill the DAMN SCVS!!!!!! closest ive come to raging in SC2 lol. ) The problem is that if you open with 4 sentries, which is fairly common to nullify bio pressure, you pretty much autolose. The next thing to consider is your robo progression - making one obs to scout then an immortal gets the immo out in time, but you're fucked against proxy banshees. Making two obs to scout defends proxy banshees but leaves you with no immortals. Double immortal would handle 1 thor but is no help against banshees. And Thor/Banshee builds look identical in terms of getting early marines and teching. 1 Immortal might as well be none due to strike cannons, so defending this relies on not having invested heavily in sentries, and having 2 immortals out - or just a lot of units and sacrificing some probes. Alternatively, you could be funky and get 4 sentries + hallu, creating more immortals than Terran knows what to do with (and still having guardianshield).
Actually with the kcdc build you build 1 or 0 sentries(kcdc build involves a late 2nd gas so you dont have the gas for 4 sentries). You are chrono'ing 1 zealot / then stalker / then stalker/sentry from the gateway then possibly one more zealot or stalker chronoed. Warpgate reseach finished after your 3rd/4th chrono'ed gateway unit - along with 2-3 more gateways should finish warping in about now. So when warp gate research finished you should have a minimum of 1 zealot, 1 or 2 stalkers then either a sentry or another zealot or sentry. I actually dont make any sentries this early since Im not thinking to forcefield choke, but rather hold of any pushes with zealots or stalkers - and im only on 1 gas so sentries will severely delay robo.
The OP said immortals are not effective vs this, so pumping zealots out of 3-4 warpgates along with chronoboost you should have plenty of units to overwhelm this as long as your able to focus the scvs a little.
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I don't think the problem is that scvs can repair. That's a cool mechanic and it adds depth to the game. The problem is their attack priority, which I hate in TvT as well. Thor rushes are not that great in that matchup but it is SO frustrating to watch all your marines, hellions, and banshees attack the Thor and lose everything. Being able to kill the scvs first would make it much better.
It seems like a transition to m&m with thors and cloaked banshees could be pretty reasonable after the first push. What is your usual mid-late game plan Janook?
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If your push fails, you are usually able to hold the counter-attack with 2 bunkers and your next Thor + repair.
I transition into Thor/Banshee/Marine. Scan + Thor is very effective at taking out observers from a distance, allowing your cloaked banshees to go in and target fire collosus, and then kill everything else. With your armory, upgrade Ship Weapons, banshees will be your primary DPS.
This also brings you all the way up the tech tree, letting you get Ravens if DTs are a problem. Some people suggest getting them for PDD but I find that too gas heavy and cuts into my banshee count.
Also, simply having cloaked banshees allows you to do solid harassment throughout the game. A Terran that isn't harassing is a dead Terran.
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Protoss was ruining me very regularly.
Havent lost since i started using this build (about 5 games so far)
Enjoyable to use  I even used it against a Zerg, and although it took 2 push attempts to work, it did work.
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On November 20 2010 05:19 Scrimpton wrote:Protoss was ruining me very regularly. Havent lost since i started using this build (about 5 games so far) Enjoyable to use I even used it against a Zerg, and although it took 2 push attempts to work, it did work.
Aww, that makes me happy.
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You're a gentlemen and a warrior Janook.
Repair isn't broken, Terran has 2ways to heal its units, 1 for Bio (Medi) and 1 for Mech (repair).
Stop trying to nerf our race, it's like saying toss shields should be returned to SC1 style (redic) or saying zerg just shouldn't auto-heal (obv not).
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@ janook
Staying with thors if this fails is not good, thors are simply a horrible unit in TvP later on unless the protoss makes phoenix. They are bad against zealots without mass repair and don't do well against regular colossus armies. If you transition it's better to just go tank + MMM imo.
If the push fails just add a tech lab to your rax, get another rax (which you should already be having) and a starport and just make MMM. Because you got a factory for thor doesn't mean you need to continue using it.. Most TvP builds include a idle factory anyways, you can always use the techlab on a new rax.
Also, please just please, CUT the stupid mech armor upgrade. It's incredibly bad as it does virtually nothing.... Stalkers do 12 instead of 13, immortals 48 instead of 49 and zealots don't hit your thor anyways.... Just get 250mm faster instead and ignore mech upgrades.
I thought about making a own thread about the thor push with a build without the nonsense in it but that would only dilute the attention this Thor push gets. In some of your games you simply lose because your thor push is horribly late due to getting useless armor first. If you skip armor you can almost exactly get 250mm and a thor when your armory finishes so you can push straight away with 1 thor. This makes it MUCH harder to counter as the protoss will have a hard time getting 2 immortals before 1 thor (whereas it's much easier to get 3 immortals vs 2 thor because chrono'd immortals build faster then thors) AND it will counter expansions much faster. Your 2 thor push style lets a 1 gate FE have a expansion up for a minute more which will let them get ahead too far in economy, if you push at 1 thor you will simply kill their economy much faster...
If this thread gets a bit more streamlined people might see the entire problem with SCV autorepair and SCV attack priority a bit more clear and it might finally get fixed. (or someone comes up with a really good way to micro agianst it except using the hold commando which simply doesnt work).
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On November 20 2010 05:31 Markwerf wrote:
@ janook
Staying with thors if this fails is not good, thors are simply a horrible unit in TvP later on unless the protoss makes phoenix. They are bad against zealots without mass repair and don't do well against regular colossus armies. If you transition it's better to just go tank + MMM imo.
If the push fails just add a tech lab to your rax, get another rax (which you should already be having) and a starport and just make MMM. Because you got a factory for thor doesn't mean you need to continue using it.. Most TvP builds include a idle factory anyways, you can always use the techlab on a new rax.
Also, please just please, CUT the stupid mech armor upgrade. It's incredibly bad as it does virtually nothing.... Stalkers do 12 instead of 13, immortals 48 instead of 49 and zealots don't hit your thor anyways.... Just get 250mm faster instead and ignore mech upgrades.
I thought about making a own thread about the thor push with a build without the nonsense in it but that would only dilute the attention this Thor push gets. In some of your games you simply lose because your thor push is horribly late due to getting useless armor first. If you skip armor you can almost exactly get 250mm and a thor when your armory finishes so you can push straight away with 1 thor. This makes it MUCH harder to counter as the protoss will have a hard time getting 2 immortals before 1 thor (whereas it's much easier to get 3 immortals vs 2 thor because chrono'd immortals build faster then thors) AND it will counter expansions much faster. Your 2 thor push style lets a 1 gate FE have a expansion up for a minute more which will let them get ahead too far in economy, if you push at 1 thor you will simply kill their economy much faster...
If this thread gets a bit more streamlined people might see the entire problem with SCV autorepair and SCV attack priority a bit more clear and it might finally get fixed. (or someone comes up with a really good way to micro agianst it except using the hold commando which simply doesnt work).
Thors are not bad versus Protoss, they serve as good meat shields and block up a huge portion of space, along with the fact that they actually do fairly well against Stalkers. The only issue is that Zealot/HT do counter Thors, but thats why you make Banshees with Thors w/ some Mauraders and laugh.
PainUser has a pretty good Thor/Banshee/Bio based army that does very well against P.
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@Markwerf
1) I am very happy with the Thor/Banshee/Marine late game composition. MMM just hasn't been working for me. I've been looking for something new and I'm happy with this. It's very strong but requires sharp micro.
2)I think you're partly right about cutting the armor upgrade. When I scout with my Helion, I choose whether to upgrade Armor or Strike cannons. If I see any kind of Robo build, I get strike cannons. If there's no Robo, I get Armor. You can afford one or the other, not both. Getting just one will make your push come about 20 seconds earlier. The reason I thought you could get both, as I do in the first replays, is because the build was fresh and I wasn't executing it as cleanly as I could. Now that I have the timing down, I realize you cannot afford both upgrades.
(By the way, you could also opt to get stim for your marines instead of either of the Thor upgrades.)
Furthermore, If you scout 1-gate FE, I agree you should push with your very first Thor, before any upgrades are done.
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On November 20 2010 05:31 Markwerf wrote:
@ janook
Staying with thors if this fails is not good, thors are simply a horrible unit in TvP later on unless the protoss makes phoenix. They are bad against zealots without mass repair and don't do well against regular colossus armies. If you transition it's better to just go tank + MMM imo.
If the push fails just add a tech lab to your rax, get another rax (which you should already be having) and a starport and just make MMM. Because you got a factory for thor doesn't mean you need to continue using it.. Most TvP builds include a idle factory anyways, you can always use the techlab on a new rax.
Also, please just please, CUT the stupid mech armor upgrade. It's incredibly bad as it does virtually nothing.... Stalkers do 12 instead of 13, immortals 48 instead of 49 and zealots don't hit your thor anyways.... Just get 250mm faster instead and ignore mech upgrades.
I thought about making a own thread about the thor push with a build without the nonsense in it but that would only dilute the attention this Thor push gets. In some of your games you simply lose because your thor push is horribly late due to getting useless armor first. If you skip armor you can almost exactly get 250mm and a thor when your armory finishes so you can push straight away with 1 thor. This makes it MUCH harder to counter as the protoss will have a hard time getting 2 immortals before 1 thor (whereas it's much easier to get 3 immortals vs 2 thor because chrono'd immortals build faster then thors) AND it will counter expansions much faster. Your 2 thor push style lets a 1 gate FE have a expansion up for a minute more which will let them get ahead too far in economy, if you push at 1 thor you will simply kill their economy much faster...
If this thread gets a bit more streamlined people might see the entire problem with SCV autorepair and SCV attack priority a bit more clear and it might finally get fixed. (or someone comes up with a really good way to micro agianst it except using the hold commando which simply doesnt work).
you actually do know, that they eat up stalkers, walk down forcefields, are immune to storm or collossi, oneshot immortals and arent bad vs zealots. one thor can take on 4 chargelots even without repair, this is 300 200 6 sup 400 8 sup and in 200vs200 sup fights, the supply are far more important than the cost. and have you ever seen thors with 3/3 upgrades? O_o you will cry yourself to sleep. you may also add banshees, because marine thor take really good care of phoenices. thors are always amazing. the only cost and supplyefficient counter are voidrays. just mix in hellions, marines, marauders and 2-3 ghosts and youre scary as helll.
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200 vs 200 fights are very rare in TvP, they don't matter much. Thor, banshee, marine is quite easy to counter with colossus, zealot, stalker, voidray or colossus, zealot, stalker, HT.
By going a thor based army you simply give up one of T's greatest strengths: mobility. Lategame thor play is just pretty damn weak.
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On November 20 2010 06:05 Markwerf wrote:
200 vs 200 fights are very rare in TvP, they don't matter much. Thor, banshee, marine is quite easy to counter with colossus, zealot, stalker, voidray or colossus, zealot, stalker, HT.
By going a thor based army you simply give up one of T's greatest strengths: mobility. Lategame thor play is just pretty damn weak.
and if the terran wants to max up, how do you stop him? propably outexpanding him... great, more probes using up supply. if the terran doesnt want to fight you, he doestn have to fight you. and i really dont see, how a thor hellion based army loses to zealot stalker? i really dont see this happen. but you gave the key word, which i already mentioned, voidrays. voidrays are the only counter to thors, use your unittester, check it out. and how hts should even do a dent to thors is beyond my wisdom. sure, storms burn hellions to the ground, but those are pretty mobile and can easily just come back and burn some zealots. and hts still have the same old problem, ghosts. srsly, if the zealots cant get a souround on the thors they melt. its as simple as that. stalkers really arent what you want to have, they are doing even worse than zealots and eat up gas, theyre not even costefficient, not to mention emp. ok, if you can get a giant blanket of psistorms off over the thors and this 5 times, theyre dead for sure, but srsly, thats not going to happen. the great thing about thors is, they are practically immune to aoe. i mean even storming roaches can be a pain in the ass, now imagine thors. and fighting them with collossi has like the same effect. a collossus will at best hit 2 thors, which is 60 dmg a shot. still not more dps than a single immortal for a lot more money. if you cant outmass him, you need voidrays.
also thors have a similar effect as archons. they spread out your amry a lot.
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EPT
