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On November 20 2010 06:31 ensis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 06:05 Markwerf wrote:
200 vs 200 fights are very rare in TvP, they don't matter much. Thor, banshee, marine is quite easy to counter with colossus, zealot, stalker, voidray or colossus, zealot, stalker, HT.
By going a thor based army you simply give up one of T's greatest strengths: mobility. Lategame thor play is just pretty damn weak. and if the terran wants to max up, how do you stop him? propably outexpanding him... great, more probes using up supply. if the terran doesnt want to fight you, he doestn have to fight you. and i really dont see, how a thor hellion based army loses to zealot stalker? i really dont see this happen. but you gave the key word, which i already mentioned, voidrays. voidrays are the only counter to thors, use your unittester, check it out. and how hts should even do a dent to thors is beyond my wisdom. sure, storms burn hellions to the ground, but those are pretty mobile and can easily just come back and burn some zealots. and hts still have the same old problem, ghosts. srsly, if the zealots cant get a souround on the thors they melt. its as simple as that. stalkers really arent what you want to have, they are doing even worse than zealots and eat up gas, theyre not even costefficient, not to mention emp. ok, if you can get a giant blanket of psistorms off over the thors and this 5 times, theyre dead for sure, but srsly, thats not going to happen. the great thing about thors is, they are practically immune to aoe. i mean even storming roaches can be a pain in the ass, now imagine thors. and fighting them with collossi has like the same effect. a collossus will at best hit 2 thors, which is 60 dmg a shot. still not more dps than a single immortal for a lot more money. if you cant outmass him, you need voidrays. also thors have a similar effect as archons. they spread out your amry a lot.
I think his point about high temps was that storm kills the scvs and marines... I know it wasn't that clear but I can't think of any other reason since feedback doesn't do anything to thors anymore. I disagree with markwerf anyway. There is still a healthy amount of bio in the end game comp that includes thors and banshees. But you get a lot of banshees, scan and kill observors with the thors' high range and attack priority and cloaked banshees do a ton of damage. You don't mass thors, just get a few (IMO at least, i'm not sure if janook agrees). You can see this used to great effect by painuser in a lot of his recent games.
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yay a new build for my TVP ghost marine and banshee marine were getting boring, now i have thor marine :o)
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On November 20 2010 06:05 Markwerf wrote:
200 vs 200 fights are very rare in TvP, they don't matter much. Thor, banshee, marine is quite easy to counter with colossus, zealot, stalker, voidray or colossus, zealot, stalker, HT.
By going a thor based army you simply give up one of T's greatest strengths: mobility. Lategame thor play is just pretty damn weak.
So you're saying, MMM Viking Tank Banshee will be more effective than MMM Viking Thor Banshee? Won't using tanks also limit your mobility too? Or are you saying that you should fight within the tank blast radius with MMM..
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All i'm saying is that MMM + ghost + viking is simply the most effective combo for terran. Mech play in general only weakens terran and is only really usefull for minimal niche use, ie. tanks for maps that favor tanks very well, hellions for harass occasionally and thors for this thor push and to counter phoenix.
For late use mech is simply not that good, it's gas heavy, it's slow and doesn't do better against any of the unit combo's that simple MMM does. The amount of gas you save by going MMM can all be spent on counters to that same MMM, ie ghosts for HT and vikings for colossi. Along with upgrades being awesome for MMM that makes it the fantastic combo and why it's used all the time vs P. There is hardly no high level play including mech play vs P for a reason, it sucks by comparison to MMM.
(painuser is the only one i know going such a style and he is a subtop terran).
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On November 17 2010 08:51 QuantumTheory wrote:
Socke stomped a similar build on Shakuras.
Had his expo up, had to sac it tho.
Edit: Give you quick rundown on the game. Opponent pushed with 1 Thor mixed with scvs/marines with strike cannon, Socke held but the 2nd thor was almost at his base. Socke defended that and went on to win. Trick was to attack them when the thors are halfway up the ramp, I think that helps with less scvs being able to repair or something. Anyway the T had an awkward angle and Socke was meant to get the surround with probuu but failed, still won though.
Socke was smart to catch the thor on the ramp, but the ONLY thing that saved him was the marines had surrounded the thor and 3-4 scvs were unable to repair. Watch the replay if you don't believe me. This allowed Socke to kill the thor; otherwise he would have lost the game for sure.
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this is easy to counter... but i dont want to tell my fellow protoss players how so that terrans continue with this build ^___^
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Janook, my friend is lame and won't make a TL forum account, now he's not shutting up about the +1 armor as opposed to +1 weapons, so I'm asking on his behalf. I assume it's to make the scvs job easier to increase the effectiveness of their repair. He won't let it go. please help us. you're our only hope.
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this is easy to counter... but i dont want to tell my fellow protoss players how so that terrans continue with this build ^___^
Okay then I'll tell them how...
Here is an example against my terran practice partner, high diamond 2k+. We played mixed games while I worked on this opener to counter that and not lose to everything else. I discussed it a few pages back in a very long post. The timings around the 26 food mark is a little weird i have to figure out how to squeeze a pylon in there, but here goes. Ive stopped it 4 times now in a row against 2 opponents, but this replay can be used as an instructional video of sorts... because it shows the ebb and flow... basically even if he plays perfectly you can have the proper mix to stop it, and since you went fast phoenix, you have time to adapt ot literally any build.
http://rapidshare.com/files/431942018/PvT_counter_thor_push.SC2Replay
enjoy and dont sweat the small stuff, i havent lost to this push with this method, good repairs or not, but its micro intensive.
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fcking gay strat. no wonder ive faced this so many times past few days on ladder nd in tounrys. lol thanks alot TL.net! >:O
only gets me if they proxy the factory cuz i wont see the thor inc!
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Sv1:
The armor substantially increases the tanking ability of the Thor. The scv repair is what makes this push so strong, and the armor synergizes well with that.
But more importantly, why armor instead of +1 attack?
Well, if you do the math, you'll find that +1 attack on a Thor doesn't help you kill any Toss Gateway units with any fewer hits. Normally, in a large battle, upgrades like that are helpful because your other units will make the difference. But because you're attacking with such a small force, the odds that your supporting marines are able to finish off a unit BEFORE your Thor overkills it is small. Also, you only have 2 or 3 Thors, so you don't get much out of the attack upgrade. However, the armor upgrade is useful, not as your units increase in number, but as your opponents increase in number. If he's defending with a large gateway force, the armor upgrade will mitigate much more damage.
I also want to add that in my more refined version of the build, you cannot afford to get both the armor upgrade and 250mm strike cannons without delaying the push. I discovered this after solidly nailing the build order. When scouting with your helion, you must decide on one of the two upgrades. See a robo? 250mm. See no robo? +1 armor.
I think that if you want to attack with both the 250mm upgrade and the +1 armor, you will have 3 thors when both of those finish.
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Jayrod: Your opponent did not execute the build very well, and had a few significant micro mistakes during the actual battle. I'm confident that, even if I executed the build the same way, if I wound up in the exact same situation, my thor/marine composition would beat your composition.
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Hey dawgs.
The entire point of builds is to make an unbeatable one, not just one that can be countered if they see it's coming.
![[image loading]](http://palmgoon.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/the_more_you_know2.jpg)
Keep up the good work with making the undefendable terran build.
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On November 20 2010 13:16 Janook wrote:
Jayrod: Your opponent did not execute the build very well, and had a few significant micro mistakes during the actual battle. I'm confident that, even if I executed the build the same way, if I wound up in the exact same situation, my thor/marine composition would beat your composition.
Cmon man.
Listen:
Phoenix lifts 250 mm cannoned immortals, thereby nullifying it.
Protoss doesnt fast expo and holds at ramp thereby limiting the amount of repair.
It's a counter, i don't care that someone can make it 4 seconds faster, it doesn't matter. The real discussion should be on the fact that it's so difficult for protoss to scout and make a reply for this, not that the push came 11.215 seconds late.
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So is the consensus, get an Immortal, fight him on your ramp, FF the Thor? FF the SCVs? What's going on. I mean, short of being incredible, using max range Stalkers to pick off the SCVs while keeping your Immortal alive and separating the Marines so half of them can't shoot; what's a reliable way?
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On November 20 2010 14:37 Supah wrote:
So is the consensus, get an Immortal, fight him on your ramp, FF the Thor? FF the SCVs? What's going on. I mean, short of being incredible, using max range Stalkers to pick off the SCVs while keeping your Immortal alive and separating the Marines so half of them can't shoot; what's a reliable way?
watch my replay posted above, it works regardless of how well they micro, but its not easy
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The Toss' I've encountered on ladder that are able to hold the initial push do so by immediately chronoing Immortals and producing stalkers, no zealots. When the attack hits, you must focus fire one Thor the second it gets up your ramp. This maximizes their ranged burst damage and minimizes the repairing potential of the SCVs.
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On November 20 2010 13:55 Bungle wrote:
Cmon man.
Listen:
Phoenix lifts 250 mm cannoned immortals, thereby nullifying it.
Protoss doesnt fast expo and holds at ramp thereby limiting the amount of repair.
It's a counter, i don't care that someone can make it 4 seconds faster, it doesn't matter. The real discussion should be on the fact that it's so difficult for protoss to scout and make a reply for this, not that the push came 11.215 seconds late.
I haven't seen the latest replays, but the Thor play mentioned in the op expands as it pushes, so being able to hold at your ramp still leaves you in a losing position. Unless you can make something happen right, it quickly becomes 2 base to one base.
The slow speed and large size of immortals means that breaking a Thor/marine contain with them seems unlikely, since the terran army ought to chew them up quickly as they move down the ramp one at a time - and lifting them with the phoenix traps the units behind them. The SCVs brought along for repair can start bunkering the protoss natural (less useful on maps with back doors or in base expos).
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On November 20 2010 08:35 Markwerf wrote:
All i'm saying is that MMM + ghost + viking is simply the most effective combo for terran. Mech play in general only weakens terran and is only really usefull for minimal niche use, ie. tanks for maps that favor tanks very well, hellions for harass occasionally and thors for this thor push and to counter phoenix.
For late use mech is simply not that good, it's gas heavy, it's slow and doesn't do better against any of the unit combo's that simple MMM does. The amount of gas you save by going MMM can all be spent on counters to that same MMM, ie ghosts for HT and vikings for colossi. Along with upgrades being awesome for MMM that makes it the fantastic combo and why it's used all the time vs P. There is hardly no high level play including mech play vs P for a reason, it sucks by comparison to MMM.
(painuser is the only one i know going such a style and he is a subtop terran).
Oh I see. Yea MMMGV is my old standard build against P since WoL came out. Btw, I thought Painuser is a biomech user, just like OgS Top and STC? And I think he has pretty good fundamentals, though he is Aa bit underrated in the rankings.
I think a better example of terran who go mech heavy and is a subtop terran is Goody. ~XD~
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Are the VRs necessary? Also, do you think its possible to hold with ONLY gateway units, or 1 Immortals tops?
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On November 20 2010 15:11 Supah wrote:
Are the VRs necessary? Also, do you think its possible to hold with ONLY gateway units, or 1 Immortals tops?
by then, i really think you should have more than gateway units
i'm sure it's possible to hold it without VRs
Having face different variations of the this build, fighting at the ramp is probably the best general bet.
if a thor is the one leading the bust, you focus it/ ff behind it
if not, FF it and pick off whatever you can range against
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EPT
