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On November 21 2010 11:22 Parra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 07:16 megagoten wrote:so i finally face this http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/107211-1v1-terran-protoss-lost-temple#rd:unitsi had no problem, this was on LT went 1 gate robo, saw marines, assumed banshees so i had a second observer on the way when my first was at his base used my ramp won no problem, he tried expanding, i had even built a paperplane accidentally, did a drop and tried to lift up a canon'ed immortal (didn't work) i'd like to know if the 2 thor push was executed right though? He did the build basically right but he didn't micro for shit nor did he bother to scan the high ground to spot that immortal that was pounding on his army like 5-6 times before he even saw your army. (he could have 250mm sniped that immortal on the edge of the cliff) He put his Thor on a ramp that cannot get SCV surrounded. If the Terran player cannot get in a good position with his army he isn't supposed to A attack and suicide his army, he needed to stay back and keep you from expanding while he gets a base ahead. He didn't bunker up when he lost his entire force (i doubt even with three bunkers he wouldn't be able to hold your army off).
i agree that he can definitely setup a contain, but for how long?
from my understanding, he will not have more than 20 workers mining vs my 40 workers
it won't take long before i macro up a bigger army, warp stuff down, intercept reinforcements and bust through the contain
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You get zero benefit from having more than 24 workers on minerals. The contain is breakable if he has less than that on minerals (or, maybe, if he has less gas income), and its most certainly breakable the moment he invests in a command center, but your worker advantage doesn't really kick in until you get an expo up.
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I just played a guy that did this but proxied his factory and I scouted his army coming with my ob and cancelled my natural nexus and added 2 more gateways (but he was starting to attack me anyways) and I held it off pretty easily by just chrono immortals all the time and making stalkers.
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From my experience so far it is very risky build that easily can be overran by Protoss if you do not execute it perfectly. But since Protoss will auto-win the game if it gets past 12 minutes anyway, no matter what strategy Terran does, it is certainly the best option yet.
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I've tried this strategy and have yet to lose a game against protoss (I'm Gold Rank 11, and the highest Protoss I took out was a Platinum Rank 4). However, I found that taking the initial hellion and four marines as soon as the hellion pops really helps keep them on their toes. The end push is weaker, but it helps get some scouting intel and lets you know their unit comp (because strike cannon might not be worth it if they aren't going robo facility.)
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On November 21 2010 14:07 megagoten wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 11:22 Parra wrote:On November 21 2010 07:16 megagoten wrote:so i finally face this http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/107211-1v1-terran-protoss-lost-temple#rd:unitsi had no problem, this was on LT went 1 gate robo, saw marines, assumed banshees so i had a second observer on the way when my first was at his base used my ramp won no problem, he tried expanding, i had even built a paperplane accidentally, did a drop and tried to lift up a canon'ed immortal (didn't work) i'd like to know if the 2 thor push was executed right though? He did the build basically right but he didn't micro for shit nor did he bother to scan the high ground to spot that immortal that was pounding on his army like 5-6 times before he even saw your army. (he could have 250mm sniped that immortal on the edge of the cliff) He put his Thor on a ramp that cannot get SCV surrounded. If the Terran player cannot get in a good position with his army he isn't supposed to A attack and suicide his army, he needed to stay back and keep you from expanding while he gets a base ahead. He didn't bunker up when he lost his entire force (i doubt even with three bunkers he wouldn't be able to hold your army off). i agree that he can definitely setup a contain, but for how long? from my understanding, he will not have more than 20 workers mining vs my 40 workers it won't take long before i macro up a bigger army, warp stuff down, intercept reinforcements and bust through the contain
lol I was reading your post, mega, and I thought, "Huh, that sounds a lot like the other day when I completely screwed up a two thor push on LT... Wait a minute..."
Yeah, this push requires good micro, and I completely biffed it. That was my third or fourth time trying it (first time losing), and the first time someone had actually used their ramp effectively. Most of my opponents when I've tried this build have engaged away from the ramp for some reason, which is an awful idea. Holding at the ramp is probably the best way to fight this, but Parra is right, if I had scanned the cliff earlier and micro'd worth a damn, the push might've gone better (maybe not winning outright, but at least trading equal resources worth of units).
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Also, I was using this build in a tourney last weekend (except I wasn't completely screwing up my micro, like against megagoten hehe), and noticed something important for using this in a series. If it is a BO3, if you use a thor rush in game one, sending a hellion scout in game two or three can tip off your opponent that it is coming.
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I've been thor pushing since the beta. It certainly does not "directly counter 2/3 gate robo".
My friend likes fast chargelots against terran and they really rip this build up.
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On November 21 2010 22:59 MockHamill wrote:
From my experience so far it is very risky build that easily can be overran by Protoss if you do not execute it perfectly. But since Protoss will auto-win the game if it gets past 12 minutes anyway, no matter what strategy Terran does, it is certainly the best option yet.
Naaah, don't form these perceptions too early. Try the more decent late game build orders from the guides/casters/TL. The part in bold is certainly not true.
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I think you doubt the power of Void Rays my friend. I myself am a Toss and started a thread on an idea that I would like to popularize: The 2 Gate Stargate (shamless plugging). Anyways, I got a replay pack from someone who is diamond, don't know exact rating, but definitely 1000+, a terran did a 2 thor timing push and the 2 Gate Stargate build pretty much erased it. Yes, the Terran had marines, and yes, he had 2 thors, but when it came down to it, the marines couldn't hit the VRs, and the Thors did too little damage, and so even with repairing SCVs, the Toss not only held it off, but destroyed it. I actually didn't recognize it as a 2 thor push until reading this post.
Just a heads up though that VRs+gateway units are really good against this build, and most others for that matter against Terran. Looks like the BO creative play is back to you. Try and counter 2 Gate Stargate b/c I know it can be stopped, but the only time it has, at least so far, is when there is an error on the Toss's part.
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i watched 3 of the replays, the build is neat but I noticed that the protoss players werent very good either..
I'm pretty sure a pure zealot force with a couple sentries for gaurdian shield flanking this push in open ground would rip it to shreds as long as after the marines are dead he focused down the scvs instead of letting his units run in circles trying to target the thors. The guy who went for the fast collosi + zealot had the right idea but he faught at his ramp instead of on open ground. It could have worked at his ramp too if he hid some zealots by his natural to come from behind as the terrans push was on his ramp.
Basically positioning + army composition = push dead
However, that's not to say the build isnt good. It definitely forces a reaction out of protoss and nobody said you have to go the whole 9 yards if you scout that it won't work. I would send a scv out before your push to make sure the road is clear too.
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On November 23 2010 02:03 Thunderflesh wrote:
Also, I was using this build in a tourney last weekend (except I wasn't completely screwing up my micro, like against megagoten hehe), and noticed something important for using this in a series. If it is a BO3, if you use a thor rush in game one, sending a hellion scout in game two or three can tip off your opponent that it is coming.
BASTARD, haha. I just got back and figured I'd search TL to see if this was a build... I wish I saw this thread before the tourney haha. The first time seeing this was a total mindfuck, was fully expecting banshees, which means I pump out an obs instead of immortal first. Its hard to have more than 1 or 2 immortals to defend and they just get cannoned :O
Thunderflesh was rollin through protoss xD
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Argh I'm so paranoid now that terran is going to be nerfed again because this build is so powerful. It seems like whenever terran comes up with an extremely powerful strategy, like mass tank/mass reaper vs zerg/ or now this, that it always results in the race becoming weaker in a patch.
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Build aint that powerful lol. Just good when protoss play right into it, or don't macro well enough. Terran shoulda been walling in with DEPOTS at least...
The Colossus guy coulda easily got range, and should have. If terran can get thors and 250 cannons protoss can get colosuss and range! Gesh. Mewtwo was the most creative but kept getting himself in a horrible concave, and poor execution of the zealot SCV killing technique. And second game played into it with immortals.
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Yeah I doubt this works against good toss that's cause i just got raped by it when the toss does the Nexgenius allin with handful zlots + 3-4 VRs. When i push up into his ramp his zlots eat my marines while VR melts my thor.
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+ Show Spoiler + in the gsl, nexgenius just ROFLSTOMPED a cheesy noname terran who attempted this thorrush by using blinkstalkers and dts.
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Zealot / Sentry / Void Ray
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-168119.jpg)
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Interesting, I've been trying to find a NON cheesy way to beat competent Protoss players (other then 3 proxy rax marine or 5 rax ALL IN w/ scvs marine push.
Fast proxy thor with repair usually worked, but this 2 thor push seems safer and has a better metagame incase it fails. Thanks OP
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Z9lHS.jpg)
This build has been working pretty well for me, thanks Janook! You're making many a nerd cry.
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Lately I've been doing a 1gate/1stargate fast expand against this where I can simultaneously timing attack and expand before the 2nd thor comes out (~7min)... It will at least kill the first thor and possibly even a bit of his base/scvs. The attack is 2 void rays/5 zealots and it revolves around your voids bringing his wall-in down/charging up out of range of the marines. If he tries to run the marines towards the voids then you engage with your zealots. If the thor comes into play you focus voids onto the thor, preferably keeping your zealots in between the marines and the voids.
Sometimes the game is over right there, but a decent terran will stop this push. Even though he's stopped the push he doesn't have enough forces to counter. After that I've got my expo up and I throw down 3 more gates and a robo (once fully saturated at your main you can cut probes to get the production buildings out). Pretty easy win from there. Zealot/Immo/Void 2 base push is a fierce combo against this build.
Also, I know a lot of people think stargate openers are risky against terran because of cloaked banshee, but if you make the same timing push against a cloaked banshee build you will either:
A.) force his banshee to retreat and spend the cloak defensively, thus giving you time to get a robo and observer out (in this case you can win quite easily by playing a macro game because you'll have a considerably earlier first expo); or
B.) engage in a base trade (his banshee vs your voids + zealots)
It's practically a win/win, because even if scenario B occurs it's fairly beneficial to trade bases when you only have 1 enemy banshee attacking yours, but possibly 2 voids + zealots attacking his. And lift off is not as scary when you have voids. When your timing attack hits and you spot cloaked banshees you should probably also make your expo at a far, random base so that you're not revealed when your main nexus falls. If you scout the thor build then just make the expo at your nat.
I should also mention that I would only use this if scouting an early tech build; otherwise 1gate/fast expand is my staple against terran.
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EPT
