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Hi Janook,
Doubt you remember me but you pwned me in the first round of a Z33k tourney I think 
Anyways, I was wondering if you have tested this vs a more aggro 4-gate. I beat someone who I believe was trying to do this build on the ladder with a 10 pylon / 10 gate 4 gate that hits with 2 zealots, 4 stalkers, and a sentry(for GS) around 5:40.
The 4 gate in your replay pack is very conservative and doesn't cut probes so it hits around 6:15 and only with 4 units. Furthermore, the 4-gate your opponent did does not involve making a stalker before dropping the last 3 gates (which is super standard, I'm a bit surprised to see that your opponent doesn't build a single unit before warp gate finishes) and thus you were able to easily scout.
Have you tried this against a more aggressive 4-gate?
Obviously Toss can't be expected to blindly go for a super aggro 4-gate every game so this certainly doesn't qualify as a counter to the build but I think it is something that your build may be more vulnerable to than you realize.
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u know is it worth it to get 1 thor in your MMM build to break the FF?
sounds pretty good...
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On November 20 2010 15:19 megagoten wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 15:11 Supah wrote:
Are the VRs necessary? Also, do you think its possible to hold with ONLY gateway units, or 1 Immortals tops? by then, i really think you should have more than gateway units i'm sure it's possible to hold it without VRs Having face different variations of the this build, fighting at the ramp is probably the best general bet. if a thor is the one leading the bust, you focus it/ ff behind it if not, FF it and pick off whatever you can range against
Yeah, I'm more referring to something like an 1 gate FE 2 more gates down, you push up, notice Marines only (and not many, at that), and you have 2 Thors breathing down your neck with a Robo just starting. I suppose this stresses the importance of keeping that early Stalker near the T's front to poke now and then before you commit to two more gates, a stargate, a robo, or an FE next.
Edit: Also, I guess that's the importance of Stargate first so you don't roll the dice Thor vs Banshee
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On November 20 2010 15:04 Victim wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 13:55 Bungle wrote:
Cmon man.
Listen:
Phoenix lifts 250 mm cannoned immortals, thereby nullifying it.
Protoss doesnt fast expo and holds at ramp thereby limiting the amount of repair.
It's a counter, i don't care that someone can make it 4 seconds faster, it doesn't matter. The real discussion should be on the fact that it's so difficult for protoss to scout and make a reply for this, not that the push came 11.215 seconds late. I haven't seen the latest replays, but the Thor play mentioned in the op expands as it pushes, so being able to hold at your ramp still leaves you in a losing position. Unless you can make something happen right, it quickly becomes 2 base to one base. The slow speed and large size of immortals means that breaking a Thor/marine contain with them seems unlikely, since the terran army ought to chew them up quickly as they move down the ramp one at a time - and lifting them with the phoenix traps the units behind them. The SCVs brought along for repair can start bunkering the protoss natural (less useful on maps with back doors or in base expos).
No, bungle is talking about this replay I made for educational purposes... hence why we sit around after the push
http://rapidshare.com/files/431942018/PvT_counter_thor_push.SC2Replay
Less than 100% perfect play on either of our parts, but its incredibly one sided in favor of the protoss with the phoenix trick. The OP brings 10 SCVs of his 28 or so to the attack. If thats held off he has 18, which the protoss has more like 30, and higher production. Honestly the expansion just feels like a way to not call it an all in, because out of the now 5 times ive held off the attack in a row, the terran hasnt been able to recover and my army is absolutely massive by comparison.
Re: the void ray, no not necessary, but if you know its thor coming you dont need more than 2 phoenix for the gravitron trick. its really important you lift your immortal as its casting and your first phoenix will have over 100 energy, while the second will get only one lift. You can actually cast beam during the 250mm animation putting it on cd and taking no damage from it. In doing so you've just weakened his push by 150/150 resources.
The expansion is superfluous, if your initial push fails, you lose the game... if not right away than in 5 minutes.
To be honest, the only thing I think that could make such a build "unstoppable" would be to some how work in a ghost to replace the cannon upgrade. if you can emp the immortals, they die to the auto attack even faster plus you get all that emp for other targets. Also if they DID open phoenix you might hit them with your emp and knock their energy off, though EMP is so small that you obv have to aim the immortals.
This push WILL NOT beat a properly controlled/macro'd phoenix/immortal/gateway combination. Any VRs you add once you've ascertained the push is coming just makes it even easier.
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Pretty easily stopped on anything but maps wIth close positions, usually I can get 3immortals and a 4th on the way. Don't try to expo because it will die, you have to engage on the ramp.
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So I just want to say that I've been doing this all day long and the only time I've managed to lose is on small ramp maps where the Terran opponent goes heavy 3 rax marauder/marine
Actually played a Protoss player who had three immortals and a handful of stalkers (1 base) and could only manage to burn down one thor, at that point the marines in the back target fired everything else and won in under 12 minutes
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I have played against this build twice tonight. The first I thought he was going banshees - I got 2gate stargate instead of robo first to deal with uncloaked banshees, and added the robo after. When I spotted his thors coming, it was too late. I did not think to lift the immy with grav until after I lost that game
The second time, I noticed he had early factory with hellions, but I had made a robo first and got obs. I saw the first thor pop after my stargate finished, so I started pumping immy, zealot, phoenix. After his first push failed, I added robo bay for colo, templar archives for storm (and had some with the final army comp), and basically owned the entire map. It was really no contest after he lost the first push.
The terran sacrifices economy, army comp, expo, and basically the game if the initial push fails. This is similar to most other all-in strategies where if the push fails, you are fighting uphill both ways in the snow with no clothes on.
1700 Diamond Protoss in E-Class division Scout Kilo (+315 point differential, ugh)
Replay :
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/107028-1v1-terran-protoss-delta-quadrant
BTW - to the OP, you didnt state 2gate stargate as a test BO that Janook went against. I think that fast banshees and marine/banshee/raven when scouted (which is fairly easy to do early) as well as this 2Thor push build are countered pretty easily by 2gate stargate
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Tarath,
I have not encountered an aggro 4-gate.
However, my gut tells me I would be able to scout that with my SCV and put down a bunker in time.
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Builds like these (played it a ton of times, and lose a lot more than I win) makes me wish they'd put energy back on the Thor for feedback.. Then you could at least counter the 250mm cannon if you scout the build. In this patch there is just not a single power unit worth investing in because of the 250mm cannon. Void rays get shat at by marines and phoenix will get laughed at with the +1 armor.
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On November 20 2010 18:25 Catreina wrote:I have played against this build twice tonight. The first I thought he was going banshees - I got 2gate stargate instead of robo first to deal with uncloaked banshees, and added the robo after. When I spotted his thors coming, it was too late. I did not think to lift the immy with grav until after I lost that game The second time, I noticed he had early factory with hellions, but I had made a robo first and got obs. I saw the first thor pop after my stargate finished, so I started pumping immy, zealot, phoenix. After his first push failed, I added robo bay for colo, templar archives for storm (and had some with the final army comp), and basically owned the entire map. It was really no contest after he lost the first push. The terran sacrifices economy, army comp, expo, and basically the game if the initial push fails. This is similar to most other all-in strategies where if the push fails, you are fighting uphill both ways in the snow with no clothes on. 1700 Diamond Protoss in E-Class division Scout Kilo (+315 point differential, ugh) Replay : http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/107028-1v1-terran-protoss-delta-quadrantBTW - to the OP, you didnt state 2gate stargate as a test BO that Janook went against. I think that fast banshees and marine/banshee/raven when scouted (which is fairly easy to do early) as well as this 2Thor push build are countered pretty easily by 2gate stargate
Watched your replay -- very nice job with the graviton beam trick.
I feel like I need to point out though that your terran opponent messed up pretty bad by putting the marines in front and attacking with the scv's instead of repairing. The idea is that the thors tank damage and take care of the immo's while the marines take care of the zealots. Not sure what effect (if any) this would have had on the outcome, since you really overwhelmed the push.
I kinda feel like if the terran sees the phoenix, s/he should just not use strike cannon and try to focus down the immortals with marines instead?
Anyways, a well deserved win for you. It's kind of a travesty that your opponent does a simple build then a-moves and rolls most protoss.
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On November 20 2010 18:25 Catreina wrote:I have played against this build twice tonight. The first I thought he was going banshees - I got 2gate stargate instead of robo first to deal with uncloaked banshees, and added the robo after. When I spotted his thors coming, it was too late. I did not think to lift the immy with grav until after I lost that game The second time, I noticed he had early factory with hellions, but I had made a robo first and got obs. I saw the first thor pop after my stargate finished, so I started pumping immy, zealot, phoenix. After his first push failed, I added robo bay for colo, templar archives for storm (and had some with the final army comp), and basically owned the entire map. It was really no contest after he lost the first push. The terran sacrifices economy, army comp, expo, and basically the game if the initial push fails. This is similar to most other all-in strategies where if the push fails, you are fighting uphill both ways in the snow with no clothes on. 1700 Diamond Protoss in E-Class division Scout Kilo (+315 point differential, ugh) Replay : http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/107028-1v1-terran-protoss-delta-quadrantBTW - to the OP, you didnt state 2gate stargate as a test BO that Janook went against. I think that fast banshees and marine/banshee/raven when scouted (which is fairly easy to do early) as well as this 2Thor push build are countered pretty easily by 2gate stargate
at the time the normal 1 thor push would come, you have 3-4 zealots 2 stalker and a voidray, i actually dont think youd stand a chance to hold it. do you maybe have a replay of this, too? and how do you think you would do vs. anything apart from thorrush with the stargate opening. the last one using a stargate first build ive seen was genius and he lost.
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The first time I went against that build I thought it was going to be banshees, and I lost horribly. I did not use grav beam, but I did focus the scvs first. I didnt even kill one thor
I have yet to face the build with a single thor push. I got the void ray in that replay after 2 or 3 phoenix, did I not?
Also, if he was repairing instead of attacking with the scv's, with the rines in the back, it probably would have meant I had less units to work with, but he still would have likely been behind. The problem against a build like this is that once scouted, you are either forced into 2gate robo stargate (or 2gate stargate robo, though less opportune), or you are rolled.
Vs heavy bio, a stargate first opening is practically giving away a free win - rines eat VR for lunch, and phoenix play is pretty negligible when there are 20 marines out there - unless I see few to no marines/marauders when I poke/scout, I will be going 2gate robo or gate robo gate as I believe these are some of the safer openings.
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On November 20 2010 17:19 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 15:04 Victim wrote:On November 20 2010 13:55 Bungle wrote:
Cmon man.
Listen:
Phoenix lifts 250 mm cannoned immortals, thereby nullifying it.
Protoss doesnt fast expo and holds at ramp thereby limiting the amount of repair.
It's a counter, i don't care that someone can make it 4 seconds faster, it doesn't matter. The real discussion should be on the fact that it's so difficult for protoss to scout and make a reply for this, not that the push came 11.215 seconds late. I haven't seen the latest replays, but the Thor play mentioned in the op expands as it pushes, so being able to hold at your ramp still leaves you in a losing position. Unless you can make something happen right, it quickly becomes 2 base to one base. The slow speed and large size of immortals means that breaking a Thor/marine contain with them seems unlikely, since the terran army ought to chew them up quickly as they move down the ramp one at a time - and lifting them with the phoenix traps the units behind them. The SCVs brought along for repair can start bunkering the protoss natural (less useful on maps with back doors or in base expos). No, bungle is talking about this replay I made for educational purposes... hence why we sit around after the push http://rapidshare.com/files/431942018/PvT_counter_thor_push.SC2ReplayLess than 100% perfect play on either of our parts, but its incredibly one sided in favor of the protoss with the phoenix trick. The OP brings 10 SCVs of his 28 or so to the attack. If thats held off he has 18, which the protoss has more like 30, and higher production. Honestly the expansion just feels like a way to not call it an all in, because out of the now 5 times ive held off the attack in a row, the terran hasnt been able to recover and my army is absolutely massive by comparison. Re: the void ray, no not necessary, but if you know its thor coming you dont need more than 2 phoenix for the gravitron trick. its really important you lift your immortal as its casting and your first phoenix will have over 100 energy, while the second will get only one lift. You can actually cast beam during the 250mm animation putting it on cd and taking no damage from it. In doing so you've just weakened his push by 150/150 resources. The expansion is superfluous, if your initial push fails, you lose the game... if not right away than in 5 minutes. To be honest, the only thing I think that could make such a build "unstoppable" would be to some how work in a ghost to replace the cannon upgrade. if you can emp the immortals, they die to the auto attack even faster plus you get all that emp for other targets. Also if they DID open phoenix you might hit them with your emp and knock their energy off, though EMP is so small that you obv have to aim the immortals. This push WILL NOT beat a properly controlled/macro'd phoenix/immortal/gateway combination. Any VRs you add once you've ascertained the push is coming just makes it even easier.
Hi I'm a Platinum player and have some questions.
In a real game how can you open 1 gate stargate vs a Terran because of the threat of cloaked banshees? How are you SURE he's going Thor rush and not a raven/marine/banshee push where Immortals are absolutely useless. Also if you're opening 1 gate stargate how do you play if he chooses just to go regular MMM with a timing push coming right after you take your expo. Please let me know as I thought it was impossible to open without Robo without a BO loss somewhere along the line, thanks.
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Hey ive found that the lategame transition to this is getting some Banshee's to help deal with collosii and Anything else really. Is there an issue with gettin banshees? When I deny his expo and put mine up Im usually tossing down an Sport and 2 more rax's and just keep pumping rines thors and banshess.
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Any chance of a 2 gate robo replay getting posted? The LT game was labelled 2 gate robo but it was actually a 1 gate FE. I'm curious how that plays out since it's a very standard opening and they could probably have a few immortals by the time your attack hits. Of course in a ladder game they will probably not make a blind immortal, especially since your front door looks like a banshee build. I've won a lot of games with marine banshee because the Protoss wasted resources on immortals. So since they don't want to roll the dice they should get an obs first. Anyway, to the point, 2 gate robo should be represented in the gauntlet.
I guess I could test it myself tonight now that my comp is fixed :D
And I don't think it's an auto loss if the attack fails. He was backing up his initial attack with more thors, and if they got picked off there wasn't much left back at home, but the best transition from the opening is probably just to drop some more barracks, reinforce with maybe 1 Thor to seal the deal (the third Thor can seal the deal but the fourth is either gravy or probably gets caught naked). Build the cc in base just in case, and bunkers can hold the ramp in case the push is a disaster. If the push is a disaster, though, you'll need a power unit to offset your army disadvantage and safely land your expo - I would go with a ghost for emp. Once the expo is up and running drop two starports and get banshees going with a few medivacs. In this scenario I don't expect to make many thors after the initial push, maybe 3-4; gas is going into banshees, ghosts, and upgrades.
Of course that is all theoretical, but a transition is easy enough if you don't overcommit and i don't feel boned if the initial attack doesn't win. The transition feels good as I think thors, ghosts, and banshees require different responses. Gateway units with immortals don't do particularly well against bio and ghosts, especially with some medivacs. The cloaked banshee/Thor dynamic is also great for mid-late game. Of course, if you get trounced and lose everything without doing any damage you'll probably be too far behind and eventually lose but that is true for any build. I can't imagine doing no damage without at least trading armies though. You should probably always kill the natural if they FE, and if you play carefully you should trade enough resources to account for the 5-6 scvs you brought along, and your expo should be ahead of theirs even if it sits in your base making scvs and mules for a minute.
Actually, a healthier way to look at the opening is probably not as trying to win the game, but secure an advantage that allows your expo to be as far ahead of him as possible without fear of counterattack. A lot of times you'll win outright, but the longer you're in his base racking up favorable trades, killing pylons or probes or gateways, NOT suiciding in for the immediate victory, and macroing at home, the further ahead you'll be. If you can't break up his ramp, don't charge it anyway just because "that's the build", you can get a nice little contain with bunkers and thors, and shoot ahead in economy. If he techs to colossi I would say salvage and head home, get some starports and milk your lead.
I am also concerned about colossi WITH range (seriously, don't skip this upgrade). They can stay away from the cannon and do a lot of damage, but that problem is nothing new to Terran. I'm not sure if you can rush a colossus and have range done before the thors come knocking, probably not, but later on if they come out you will need air support or a great concave. Again, this problem exists for just about any Terran build. If you can get a handful of banshees and kill the observor with the thors you'll be fine, as long as you can get to that point. Actually, that's the best late game solution to a Protoss ball that I've seen.
This has gone on pretty long. In summary, you aren't dead if you don't win the game with the first attack. Don't treat it like an all-in and it won't be. While committing fully to attack is potent, Protoss users will learn how to beat it. Get used to transitioning and playing smart and you will be in better shape. How often did 5 rax reaper win the game with just reapers? Very rarely, but the transition into two base bio play off the economic advantage you created was incredibly strong. <the build doesn't suck because you charged in and didn't win the game right away>
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I just went up against a Protoss earlier and I had no idea what I was doing but I saw 2gates and expected an immortal so I just did a blah whatever build and went thor with SCVs and marines.
I sort of eeked out a win and it felt like he could turn the tide of the battle around but at the same time thor just continues walking and shooting. Also, one hit kill on workers is just hax. O_O
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so i finally face this
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/107211-1v1-terran-protoss-lost-temple#rd:units
i had no problem, this was on LT
went 1 gate robo, saw marines, assumed banshees so i had a second observer on the way when my first was at his base
used my ramp won no problem, he tried expanding, i had even built a paperplane accidentally, did a drop and tried to lift up a canon'ed immortal (didn't work)
i'd like to know if the 2 thor push was executed right though?
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this build is amazing i use it all the time i just started yesterday and got promoted in like 2 hours of laddering and thanks janook for answering my question a couple days ago
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On November 21 2010 07:16 megagoten wrote:so i finally face this http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/107211-1v1-terran-protoss-lost-temple#rd:unitsi had no problem, this was on LT went 1 gate robo, saw marines, assumed banshees so i had a second observer on the way when my first was at his base used my ramp won no problem, he tried expanding, i had even built a paperplane accidentally, did a drop and tried to lift up a canon'ed immortal (didn't work) i'd like to know if the 2 thor push was executed right though?
He did the build basically right but he didn't micro for shit nor did he bother to scan the high ground to spot that immortal that was pounding on his army like 5-6 times before he even saw your army. (he could have 250mm sniped that immortal on the edge of the cliff) He put his Thor on a ramp that cannot get SCV surrounded. If the Terran player cannot get in a good position with his army he isn't supposed to A attack and suicide his army, he needed to stay back and keep you from expanding while he gets a base ahead. He didn't bunker up when he lost his entire force (i doubt even with three bunkers he wouldn't be able to hold your army off).
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no question this is going to get slapped down in the next patch. blizzard has already said they're looking for ways to "nerf" the scv repair on thors. they have already done so by making it smaller but they might try something different this time.
If you're toss, good luck stopping this at the moment because there's nothing much you can do.
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EPT
