TvZ matches in the GSL - Page 2

On October 27 2010 04:41 Benshin88 wrote:
watch MVP match with zenio. His MMM micro > muta/ling/bling

On October 27 2010 07:14 Jeffbelittle wrote:
The tournament hasn't been showing how overpowered Zerg is... it's been showing how unadaptive Terrans have been.

The zergs get one real buff. One. And it was +1 range on a unit that dies in numbers to both marines and or marauders, that can't shoot up.

What I wish would happen is if reapers were able to be built at proper times again, along with their upgrades, because the nerf was stupid overkill. I would have put the reaper nerf in the NEXT patch and see if the roach range upgrade was enough to avoid some serious loses.

But all in all, I just want to see some new terran play. More ravens for sure, but there are lots of units I haven't seen in terran use. Haven't heard much about battle cruisers, only heard a little about ghosts, seems nobody uses reapers anymore, I mean come on. SOMEONE out there has to be trying some fun and nifty things to give the terran edge and spark back. I think it's just a-moving terran don't auto win against zerg forces AS MUCH anymore because finally we have some concavity.

On October 27 2010 07:23 Kolu wrote:


Your forgetting about the ability to hatch first without fear which is a bit bigger then the roach range increase IMO.

On October 27 2010 07:14 Jeffbelittle wrote:
The tournament hasn't been showing how overpowered Zerg is... it's been showing how unadaptive Terrans have been.

The zergs get one real buff. One. And it was +1 range on a unit that dies in numbers to both marines and or marauders, that can't shoot up.

What I wish would happen is if reapers were able to be built at proper times again, along with their upgrades, because the nerf was stupid overkill. I would have put the reaper nerf in the NEXT patch and see if the roach range upgrade was enough to avoid some serious loses.

But all in all, I just want to see some new terran play. More ravens for sure, but there are lots of units I haven't seen in terran use. Haven't heard much about battle cruisers, only heard a little about ghosts, seems nobody uses reapers anymore, I mean come on. SOMEONE out there has to be trying some fun and nifty things to give the terran edge and spark back. I think it's just a-moving terran don't auto win against zerg forces AS MUCH anymore because finally we have some concavity.

On October 27 2010 07:05 hp.Shell wrote:
Because T used to be OP before the patch, Z and P players were probably practicing XvT like hell to have a chance at placing higher in the GSL. Because Z used to be underpowered, T probably practiced TvZ less. The fact that Fruit Dealer won GSL1 in a ZvT before the patch is a testament to his ZvT preparation. He went 3-1 in the finals before this patch. Do you really think Rainbow would have a chance vs FD in a TvZ now that the game is more balanced?

I feel the players in the GSL are worst at taking expansions when they have a 49% chance of losing the game. Z players are playing better overall than T or P, imo, and I play P. Now that T is finally not OP anymore, the skill of the Z players is showing by who is going deeper into the tournament. Also, top level Zs have figured out their expansion timings better than any other race's top players, period. This is a huge reason why Z is winning so much. When's the last time you saw a top-level SC2 P or T take 60% of the map? Yeah, I went there.

On October 27 2010 13:37 mGMUSE wrote:
it was extremely painful to watch the maka and mvp going marine/tanks in all their games only to get rolled over. why do they stick to marine tank throughout the game? marines cant fend off mutas harass properly, even if you stim everytime you see mutas going into your base. a thor set at one mineral line can fend off any mutas harass with scvs repairing.

mechplay is 3x better than rines/tanks imo, the only reason i can think of for pros going marines/tank is to stop that 'fruitdealer' type of play where you can use dropships to drop onto the zerg's 3rd/4th/5th as mechplay cannot do that(immobility).

someone enlighten me as to why the pros insist on going rines/tanks?

On October 27 2010 13:43 iEchoic wrote:


Thor-based mech is terrible against mass roach since the change, and tank-heavy mech gets obliterated by +carapace lings and heavy muta compositions (slings sponging two tank shots = your tanks are worthless and are going to splash on your own tanks all the time). You basically need marines for anti-air if you spend a lot of gas on tanks, and you basically need CS and stim for them to be good. If you're investing that much in upgrades on a few marines, you might as well make more.



Not that I disagree, but fast expanding TvZ is even cheesier. Any good zerg who scouts a fast expand will just massively out-drone and out-expand you and you won't be able to do anything. Fast expanding TvZ relies 100% on your opponent scouting late or reacting wrong.

On October 27 2010 07:23 Kolu wrote:


Your forgetting about the ability to hatch first without fear which is a bit bigger then the roach range increase IMO.

On October 27 2010 13:51 mGMUSE wrote:


I go mechplay all the time vs zergs on ladder and win 80% of my games. Of course even though im a 2k diamond i understand that the play at this level is nothing compared to the pros'. A good mechplay involves scouting what your opponent is making and adapt accordingly. Helions take care of lings, tanks take care of roaches/some blings, thors(with some rines mixed in) take care of mutas and absorbs banelings hit.

The only time i lose against zerg is when they go the 'fruitdealer' type of play where they take 4/5 bases when im still making the crictical amount of thors/tanks i need to push out. Also if my helion drops are not being effective.

On October 27 2010 05:43 Emperor_Earth wrote:

What is the measuring stick for whether something is balanced or not? Assuming perfect play who wins? But what if one side has to have three times the skill to play at the same "perfect" level? If we instead measure balance as "results assuming equal skill", what points of skill should we consider? Progamer only? Every level? What in what proportions is even considered skill?

Reaction speed to certain things? Mechanical requirements to execute a certain task? Game sense to guesstimate the various factors deciding who's ahead/behind? Multitask? Strategical insight? Obviously these all matter, but to what extent?

If one side needs less than 2 second reaction time to all events and the other has a higher requirement for multitask but all else is near equal, is this "balanced"? I think we can begin to see that the further we delve into the "balance" argument, the murkier the lines become until we reach a point where we begin to contradict ourselves because of all the various parameters we keep in mind. Such is the danger of theorycraft.

On October 27 2010 13:44 RifleCow wrote:


Lack of mobility. If you go mech you can't move out without zerg counter attacking into your main. Killing your production then cleaning up your army because of the lack of reinforcements. Additionally, due to the slowness of your army zerg is free to build countless expos because it takes forever for the terran to get from one expo to the next. So, in the ned its like 5 base zerg vs 2 base terran. Really, terrans should try to match zergs production rate with reactored production facilities. Mass marines worked in BW despite all sort of marine killing units that zerg could pull out, since a terran could produce the same rate as a zerg. Maybe terrans should try something similar?

On October 27 2010 04:51 sodoff wrote:


lol, is that why he lost?

On October 27 2010 07:05 hp.Shell wrote:
Because T used to be OP before the patch, Z and P players were probably practicing XvT like hell to have a chance at placing higher in the GSL. Because Z used to be underpowered, T probably practiced TvZ less. The fact that Fruit Dealer won GSL1 in a ZvT before the patch is a testament to his ZvT preparation. He went 3-1 in the finals before this patch. Do you really think Rainbow would have a chance vs FD in a TvZ now that the game is more balanced?

I feel the players in the GSL are worst at taking expansions when they have a 49% chance of losing the game. Z players are playing better overall than T or P, imo, and I play P. Now that T is finally not OP anymore, the skill of the Z players is showing by who is going deeper into the tournament. Also, top level Zs have figured out their expansion timings better than any other race's top players, period. This is a huge reason why Z is winning so much. When's the last time you saw a top-level SC2 P or T take 60% of the map? Yeah, I went there.