|
On October 27 2010 13:51 mGMUSE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 13:43 iEchoic wrote:On October 27 2010 13:37 mGMUSE wrote:
someone enlighten me as to why the pros insist on going rines/tanks? Thor-based mech is terrible against mass roach since the change, and tank-heavy mech gets obliterated by +carapace lings and heavy muta compositions (slings sponging two tank shots = your tanks are worthless and are going to splash on your own tanks all the time). You basically need marines for anti-air if you spend a lot of gas on tanks, and you basically need CS and stim for them to be good. If you're investing that much in upgrades on a few marines, you might as well make more. On October 27 2010 06:42 Hider wrote:
IMO terran harass in tvz without expo = cheese. . Not that I disagree, but fast expanding TvZ is even cheesier. Any good zerg who scouts a fast expand will just massively out-drone and out-expand you and you won't be able to do anything. Fast expanding TvZ relies 100% on your opponent scouting late or reacting wrong. I go mechplay all the time vs zergs on ladder and win 80% of my games. Of course even though im a 2k diamond i understand that the play at this level is nothing compared to the pros'. A good mechplay involves scouting what your opponent is making and adapt accordingly. Helions take care of lings, tanks take care of roaches/some blings, thors(with some rines mixed in) take care of mutas and absorbs banelings hit.
Yeah, mech isn't worthless, but it's kind of a ladder strat and not a tourney strat, imo. For example, I beat most zergs going 15cc on ladder, but in a Bo3, I would never be able to win with it twice because once you lose to it once it's pretty obvious how to beat it. I also beat a lot of zergs on ladder opening 2port banshees, but once again, this is a ladder strat that would be terrible as a standard build.
I don't see how you'd be able to beat a good zerg multiple times in a row with mech. Every mech composition is so exploitable. Would definitely like to see replays if you're beating high-level zergs multiple times in a row.
|
On October 27 2010 03:09 Azzur wrote:
We've been seeing alot of Terran FE in this matchup which I like a lot as I believe that is Terran's strongest response to the Zerg FE.
After that the Terran's transition to a 3-rax, 1-fact, marine/tank build. Even in the games that the Terran won, I feel that they were really walking a tightrope where 1 mistake could cost them their army. Thus, I don't really like this build that much.
One thing I saw that was nice is the 1 banshee play (e.g. Loner), and I think we'll see a lot of Terrans make at least one. I feel that Terrans can maybe build even more, for they do very well against roach. What do people think of a thor/marine/banshee (and maybe helion) build?
I feel that this build is stronger against muta play? If the Zerg goes roach heavy, maybe add in more banshee?
I strongly agree with you Azzur. I really don't know why these terrans choose to play this style against zerg. We've seen it since GSL 1, especially in the finals. It doesn't work. Any bio play, I don't care how good your marine spread or micro is, will not keep up with a 3 base zerg muta/bling/sling.
The only chance I think it has is if you can hit a good timed attack, although it seems the Korean zergs are completely prepared with roach and bane speed before the push comes..
Personally, I wish more Koreans would adapt TLO's style of TvZ. Which is mass mech play. Or at least really utilize Thors. I myself am 1800+ zerg and can stomp any bio play throw at me. It's the mass mech that I absolutely cannot deal with.
|
On October 27 2010 15:28 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 13:51 mGMUSE wrote:On October 27 2010 13:43 iEchoic wrote:On October 27 2010 13:37 mGMUSE wrote:
someone enlighten me as to why the pros insist on going rines/tanks? Thor-based mech is terrible against mass roach since the change, and tank-heavy mech gets obliterated by +carapace lings and heavy muta compositions (slings sponging two tank shots = your tanks are worthless and are going to splash on your own tanks all the time). You basically need marines for anti-air if you spend a lot of gas on tanks, and you basically need CS and stim for them to be good. If you're investing that much in upgrades on a few marines, you might as well make more. On October 27 2010 06:42 Hider wrote:
IMO terran harass in tvz without expo = cheese. . Not that I disagree, but fast expanding TvZ is even cheesier. Any good zerg who scouts a fast expand will just massively out-drone and out-expand you and you won't be able to do anything. Fast expanding TvZ relies 100% on your opponent scouting late or reacting wrong. I go mechplay all the time vs zergs on ladder and win 80% of my games. Of course even though im a 2k diamond i understand that the play at this level is nothing compared to the pros'. A good mechplay involves scouting what your opponent is making and adapt accordingly. Helions take care of lings, tanks take care of roaches/some blings, thors(with some rines mixed in) take care of mutas and absorbs banelings hit. Yeah, mech isn't worthless, but it's kind of a ladder strat and not a tourney strat, imo. For example, I beat most zergs going 15cc on ladder, but in a Bo3, I would never be able to win with it twice because once you lose to it once it's pretty obvious how to beat it. I also beat a lot of zergs on ladder opening 2port banshees, but once again, this is a ladder strat that would be terrible as a standard build. I don't see how you'd be able to beat a good zerg multiple times in a row with mech. Every mech composition is so exploitable. Would definitely like to see replays if you're beating high-level zergs multiple times in a row.
what keeps you from mixing it up in a bo3?
the stuff you talk about alone is enough to play a totally different strat evry game in a bo3. which isnt even needed (many many people will stick to their standart and just bend it a bit when playing longer series).
i really think mech heavy play is totally underrated atm. you can do strong midgame pushes, you can go for macro games (trying to go for the good old mapsplit with PFs and sensor towers) and you have a very very strong lategame since 3-3 mech really just murders stuff.and the biggest bane of mech,the ultra, is WAY weaker then in 1.0 where people stopped meching cause it really crumbled once some ultras were out.
esp thors are so underused recently in tvz. evrytime i see a terran getting owned by muta harrass i facepalm and ask myself why they dont simply get A thor which shuts down ALL harrass in the base hes standing. a thor at that stage is in 99% of the situations better then 2 tanks. it shuts down harrass,snipes, makes muta micro impossible and is overall a good unit to have vs pretty much evry Z unit combo possible and also is great at defending due to scv mass repair. the only downside of the thor is the mobility. but since tanks are core and limit the mobility anyways its not like the thor is ever a bad choice.
@guy above
yeah banshees are another unit that people need to use way more. they are dirt cheap for the dmg they deal ,can really fuckup the Zs build/timings,provide nice scouts and it really is not hard to make it cost effective by killing a few drones even if the Z has proper defenses. lategame Zs often comit to pure ground (ultra/ling/infestor/baneling) where again 2 banshees suddenly shutting down a expo for some time can win games
|
On October 27 2010 07:45 AeonXStrife wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 07:14 Jeffbelittle wrote:
The tournament hasn't been showing how overpowered Zerg is... it's been showing how unadaptive Terrans have been.
The zergs get one real buff. One. And it was +1 range on a unit that dies in numbers to both marines and or marauders, that can't shoot up.
What I wish would happen is if reapers were able to be built at proper times again, along with their upgrades, because the nerf was stupid overkill. I would have put the reaper nerf in the NEXT patch and see if the roach range upgrade was enough to avoid some serious loses.
But all in all, I just want to see some new terran play. More ravens for sure, but there are lots of units I haven't seen in terran use. Haven't heard much about battle cruisers, only heard a little about ghosts, seems nobody uses reapers anymore, I mean come on. SOMEONE out there has to be trying some fun and nifty things to give the terran edge and spark back. I think it's just a-moving terran don't auto win against zerg forces AS MUCH anymore because finally we have some concavity. IdrA's first GSL match shows how good Battlecruisers are in TvZ. They got kited by Queens long enough for mutas to show up and overrun them. Terran doesn't have enough efficient options that Zerg can't punish. Ghosts are meh and can't really do anything against mass Zerg units that I can think of. Snipe might be good but I haven't seen relevant use of it. Raven's are probably the most viable underused unit right now. For some reason Terran's aren't realizing how good creep is and how easy they are to kill. I can't see why early pushes just to kill creep tumors coming out from the Zerg's natural would be ineffective; It forces more creep tumors, which means less larvae.
The problem with early pushes to clean out creep tumors is this: Terran can't just push out whenever he feels like it. Couple of reasons:
1. Muta threat. This may or may not be a problem depending on the timing, but a quick raven with marines is probably cutting it close if you don't pressure before hand.
2. Zerg's units are faster than T's. A terran can't just push up and then retreat when he feels like it. The Z can see the push coming, react by building counter-units, and chase the entire force back if and when he feels it's safe.
As the matchup stands and as has been stated elsewhere in this thread, T can't afford to throw away any units at all anymore. The more or less free Z natural is just too much to risk making early blunders.
http://sc2casts.com/cast1276-FruitDealer-vs-MioWeRRa-1-Game-Battle.net-Match-Korean-Starcraft-Match
Here's a replay demonstrating how hard TvZ is right now, MioWeRRa vs. FruitDealer no less. Now I know the dealer is a god, but he makes some mistakes in this match. But it just doesn't matter and T runs out of steam and gets rolled anyway.
T just can't damage Z economy enough to make any real difference in the early game. So T pushes with a huge marine/tank force that gets fucking rolled by roaches in a stupid awesome defense by FruitDealer. Mio then transitions into drop play, managing to damage a lot of mutas and wreck a whole bunch of the Z main. Doesn't matter thou, Z has already taken a 3rd and his economy is so great that baneling/roach neutralizes T's next push and T crumbles under the next counter.
Maybe my play-by-play isn't perfect. But it certainly looks to me like the way things are, it's nearly impossible for a T to take a 3rd base. It's either win with a 2 base push or Z just outmacroes you and waits for you to make a mistake.
|
On October 27 2010 07:07 blagoonga123 wrote:
The fact that Fruit Dealer found ZvT downright easy before the patch is a testament to the fact that ZvT imba was already diminishing before this 1.2 even came out imo.
this is exactly true, those who cannot see it.... are blind
User was warned for this post
|
I think it was Maka who used a thor in his army and drop ships to make his army more mobile, and when mutas found his dropships the first thing he did was drop the thor which made it tricky for the zerg to pick off the drop ships without losing mutas. He was basically allowed to move around with the drop ships anyway he wanted without much of a threat.
I thought that was an excellent way of dealing with the problem of risking to lose your whole fucking army for moving out.
Obviously a burrowed infestor could fuck that shit up, but he probably knew that the zerg couldn't have that at the moment.
|
On October 27 2010 13:58 mGMUSE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 13:44 RifleCow wrote:On October 27 2010 13:37 mGMUSE wrote:
it was extremely painful to watch the maka and mvp going marine/tanks in all their games only to get rolled over. why do they stick to marine tank throughout the game? marines cant fend off mutas harass properly, even if you stim everytime you see mutas going into your base. a thor set at one mineral line can fend off any mutas harass with scvs repairing.
mechplay is 3x better than rines/tanks imo, the only reason i can think of for pros going marines/tank is to stop that 'fruitdealer' type of play where you can use dropships to drop onto the zerg's 3rd/4th/5th as mechplay cannot do that(immobility).
someone enlighten me as to why the pros insist on going rines/tanks? Lack of mobility. If you go mech you can't move out without zerg counter attacking into your main. Killing your production then cleaning up your army because of the lack of reinforcements. Additionally, due to the slowness of your army zerg is free to build countless expos because it takes forever for the terran to get from one expo to the next. So, in the ned its like 5 base zerg vs 2 base terran. Really, terrans should try to match zergs production rate with reactored production facilities. Mass marines worked in BW despite all sort of marine killing units that zerg could pull out, since a terran could produce the same rate as a zerg. Maybe terrans should try something similar? I don't think rines/tank can handle the counter-attacks well either. I mean, if you push out you shouldn't ever need to turn back or you'll be at the disadvantage. Furthermore rines are limited by tanks' speed which makes them pretty immobile too. What I do to prevent counterattacks is to leave 2 tanks, 2 hellions at my natural(which is walled off with buildings). Also 1 thor at each mineral line throughout the game. I haven't really encountered any real counterattacks though, usually just speedlings trying to stream into my base(which hellions take care of). I mean, if they decide to avoid your army and push into your base with his whole army, all you need to do is to walk over to his main and kill off all tech structures and trade bases with him. He wont be able to re-produce after that and we all know theres no way zerg can beat a 200/200 terran mech army...
Mass Marine isn't viable because 2 banelings worth 100 minerals and 50 gas can instantly blow up 1000 minerals worth of marines (even with combat shield). See the Loner vs Terious game for reference.
I also think Zerg's lategame is way stonger than Terran's, even if Terran's 200/ 200 defeats Zerg's 200/ 200, Zerg will be back to 200 almost immediately whilst Terran is stuck remaking units 1 at a time. I think the patch made clear that the Terran race relied heavily on doing early economic damage to win matches before the patch. Which is why the race was considered overpowered and Zerg wasn't fun to play.
I'm not the biggest fan of cheese but the new patch practically ensure Zerg an economic advantage into the midgame. Terran practically has to go all-in to deny the fast expansion. I think that Blizzard will have to look at Zerg lategame after GSL.
|
I think T needs a late game tool, that allows it to hold a 3rd base or at least be able to extend the mining.
P has the Mothership as their unique unit, doesn't hurt that T and Z have one too.
|
On October 27 2010 13:56 ToxNub wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 05:43 Emperor_Earth wrote:
What is the measuring stick for whether something is balanced or not? Assuming perfect play who wins? But what if one side has to have three times the skill to play at the same "perfect" level? If we instead measure balance as "results assuming equal skill", what points of skill should we consider? Progamer only? Every level? What in what proportions is even considered skill?
Reaction speed to certain things? Mechanical requirements to execute a certain task? Game sense to guesstimate the various factors deciding who's ahead/behind? Multitask? Strategical insight? Obviously these all matter, but to what extent?
If one side needs less than 2 second reaction time to all events and the other has a higher requirement for multitask but all else is near equal, is this "balanced"? I think we can begin to see that the further we delve into the "balance" argument, the murkier the lines become until we reach a point where we begin to contradict ourselves because of all the various parameters we keep in mind. Such is the danger of theorycraft.
This needs to be stickied and posted in the header of every thread.
It's an excellent quick review of some of the questions that need to be answered in order to determine whether a generalizable imbalance is occuring. I fear it will be read by most as an indication that imbalance is a subjective phenomenon rather than just a very complicated objective phenomenon.
|
Very inspiring play by boxer. Getting these unattended overlords with the early marines is definetely interesting. His Marine Micro was very solid. Something i will definately try to work on myself.
|
On October 27 2010 16:43 BigMEAT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 07:07 blagoonga123 wrote:
The fact that Fruit Dealer found ZvT downright easy before the patch is a testament to the fact that ZvT imba was already diminishing before this 1.2 even came out imo. this is exactly true, those who cannot see it.... are blind User was warned for this post
After todays match, it seems like your words turned on you.
|
T dominated Z for a long time, now T got nerfs for reapers and Z got +1 range for roaches - did those changes really matter a lot?i seriously think no
Bio was already outdated a long time ago because of creep+banelings but now i see it more and more on pro level - doesnt make sense to me; i remember T mech play ot be the hardest challenge to Z since...ever; also in game T players go for marines and tanks for the entire game no matter how many times it gets killed; i really dont understand the point of going for FE and then make such an army too - i always thought you go marine/tank with one base for an early push before the Z has muta or you expand to support mech and use superior tech
|
On October 27 2010 18:49 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 13:58 mGMUSE wrote:On October 27 2010 13:44 RifleCow wrote:On October 27 2010 13:37 mGMUSE wrote:
it was extremely painful to watch the maka and mvp going marine/tanks in all their games only to get rolled over. why do they stick to marine tank throughout the game? marines cant fend off mutas harass properly, even if you stim everytime you see mutas going into your base. a thor set at one mineral line can fend off any mutas harass with scvs repairing.
mechplay is 3x better than rines/tanks imo, the only reason i can think of for pros going marines/tank is to stop that 'fruitdealer' type of play where you can use dropships to drop onto the zerg's 3rd/4th/5th as mechplay cannot do that(immobility).
someone enlighten me as to why the pros insist on going rines/tanks? Lack of mobility. If you go mech you can't move out without zerg counter attacking into your main. Killing your production then cleaning up your army because of the lack of reinforcements. Additionally, due to the slowness of your army zerg is free to build countless expos because it takes forever for the terran to get from one expo to the next. So, in the ned its like 5 base zerg vs 2 base terran. Really, terrans should try to match zergs production rate with reactored production facilities. Mass marines worked in BW despite all sort of marine killing units that zerg could pull out, since a terran could produce the same rate as a zerg. Maybe terrans should try something similar? I don't think rines/tank can handle the counter-attacks well either. I mean, if you push out you shouldn't ever need to turn back or you'll be at the disadvantage. Furthermore rines are limited by tanks' speed which makes them pretty immobile too. What I do to prevent counterattacks is to leave 2 tanks, 2 hellions at my natural(which is walled off with buildings). Also 1 thor at each mineral line throughout the game. I haven't really encountered any real counterattacks though, usually just speedlings trying to stream into my base(which hellions take care of). I mean, if they decide to avoid your army and push into your base with his whole army, all you need to do is to walk over to his main and kill off all tech structures and trade bases with him. He wont be able to re-produce after that and we all know theres no way zerg can beat a 200/200 terran mech army... Mass Marine isn't viable
Now Now Now.
|
What's wrong with hellion thor marine ravens ? It works for me. PDD against mutas, micro marines and hellions and you are pretty much set.
Don't forget to get armor upgrades for mech. But well, that's why i am asking why people stopped playing that ?
Roaches are not that great, instead of ravens you get shees if he goes heavy on roaches.
|
On October 27 2010 18:58 BigFatRoAcH wrote:
I think T needs a late game tool, that allows it to hold a 3rd base or at least be able to extend the mining.
P has the Mothership as their unique unit, doesn't hurt that T and Z have one too.
Yeah, I agree. Maybe they should add an upgrade to let the command center shoot at enemies, like a defensive alternative to the orbital command upgrade?
|
I think tasteless had a good idea to use an early reaper to shut down creep tumors, though it would get shut down as soon as slings show up, killing the first one or two creep tumors would be a pretty big set back for the cost IMO. Then in mid/late game maybe getting the reaper speed upgrade and use a small group of reapers to deny creep spread. I think as the meta game progresses denying creep will become an essential part of TvZ, getting creep all over the map is just too powerful when left unchecked.
|
On October 27 2010 05:03 2FresH wrote:
yea but zenio did not figure out how to baneling drop from ovies until game 3. mvp played great dont get me wrong but for that amount of effort to beat muta/ling/baneling isnt proper to me.
i've gone (almost)undefeated vs 1900+ zergs using my modified raven build that I took from Terran vs thewind.
basically, OC start, then fact @ 100 gas, tech lab after 2-3 marines (before fact finishes) when fact done, swap with tech lab, get infernal pre-igniter and a starport. make hellion asap (usually few minerals short) then pump 3 hellions. once starport is done, make a dropship. by the time the dropship is done,you will have 3 hellions with blue flame finishing on the travel to the zergs base. put 2 hellions in one dropship and send the other to decoy at expo. drop hellions and kill as MANY drones as possible. ive always had success with good micro(2 hellion w/ blueflame = auto dead drone). meanwhile, make a command centre (because ull be making addons/swapping buildings) first, then swap ur starport with the factory (starport w/ techlab now), make a reactor with the factory and another starport, then either: make a banshees if he went roaches (no cloak); or go raven. if he goes muta/bling/ling you're in great shape. get an eng bay around 8min. get +1 range FIRST. keep pumping ravens, marine, reactor hellions (usually have 3-4 rax with 1 techlab for marine shield). get +2 building armor from eng bay asap. this will thwart ANY muta rush with decently played 2-3 turrets. also, +2 armor makes a PF almost immune to zerg with 4 turrets, so u can expo a 2nd time pretty safely. for the 2-3 times i've forgotten to get turrets up in time for mutas i just used 1-2 auto turrets (they rape mutas with the armor/range). then once u get 4-5 ravens, attack. MAKE SURE U DROP AT's (auto turrets) up first so they soak up damage, then bring your army and micro around the turrets. *remember, this is for the muta/baneling/ling strat* usually the first push ends it, if not the 2nd one will if you dont lose ravens. regardless, the best feature to this build is that YOU are the aggressor in this matchup. rather than relying on HARASSMENT, the zerg must respond to your build, not vice versa. I've seen countless high level games where the T is forced to respond to marine/tank because of baneling/muta.. well it doesnt add up and i've yet to see a Terran really make this build viable (yes MVP did well, but like i said above, it requires too much micro/skill for minimal gains; and no baneling+overlord was used in G1).
If the game progresses past the 1/2nd push with raven/marine/hellion/AT, then I switch to durable materials/HSM upgrades. this allows HSM to last VERY long and panic the zerg. in the event the game does go this far out, trust me, HSM will rape any muta combo (just bait him witth the ravens, he thinks you only got AT's most of the time).
--- if he went roaches i use the banshee build (i hit with 4, since 2 starport pump 4 banshees pretty fast, and 2 hit roaches and queens and can even take out single spore crawlers w/o losing one with micro). also, if i see he goes roaches, I make 2 tanks w/ siege outta my fact w/ tech lab before swapping it to a reactor for blueflame hellions. Sometimes I get 1 viking out first to harass ovies, and force a spire. thats what you want, YOU WANT A SPIRE!
I do have replays but am lazy to upload etc. but my record vs 1900+ zergs is IIRC 11-1. the one time I lost was to a roach/infestor build that caught ALL my ravens with fungal+infested terrans and.. that is GG right there. the whole point of the raven strat, like ive said in other posts, is to KEEP them(ravens) alive. every single raven has exponential value as the game progresses; whereas losing a marine is simply losing a marine, losing a raven is countless AT's, HSM, PDD potential.
PS. use auto turrets around the map to scout any harass, flying mutas, expos.. the autoturret for 50 mana lasts up to 6 min... well worth it to gain some map control and annoy zergs. not to mention, trading damage/potential killing mutas/zerg units for a MANA produced unit is a very, very good trade-off
I'm very interested in seeing (and using) your style. Are you sure you don't want to upload like 1 or 2 replays showing it off? 
|
On October 27 2010 06:35 leb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 05:03 2FresH wrote:
yea but zenio did not figure out how to baneling drop from ovies until game 3. mvp played great dont get me wrong but for that amount of effort to beat muta/ling/baneling isnt proper to me.
i've gone (almost)undefeated vs 1900+ zergs using my modified raven build that I took from Terran vs thewind.
basically, OC start, then fact @ 100 gas, tech lab after 2-3 marines (before fact finishes) when fact done, swap with tech lab, get infernal pre-igniter and a starport. make hellion asap (usually few minerals short) then pump 3 hellions. once starport is done, make a dropship. by the time the dropship is done,you will have 3 hellions with blue flame finishing on the travel to the zergs base. put 2 hellions in one dropship and send the other to decoy at expo. drop hellions and kill as MANY drones as possible. ive always had success with good micro(2 hellion w/ blueflame = auto dead drone). meanwhile, make a command centre (because ull be making addons/swapping buildings) first, then swap ur starport with the factory (starport w/ techlab now), make a reactor with the factory and another starport, then either: make a banshees if he went roaches (no cloak); or go raven. if he goes muta/bling/ling you're in great shape. get an eng bay around 8min. get +1 range FIRST. keep pumping ravens, marine, reactor hellions (usually have 3-4 rax with 1 techlab for marine shield). get +2 building armor from eng bay asap. this will thwart ANY muta rush with decently placed 2-3 turrets. also, +2 armor makes a PF almost immune to zerg with 4 turrets, so u can expo a 2nd time pretty safely. for the 2-3 times i've forgotten to get turrets up in time for mutas i just used 1-2 auto turrets (they rape mutas with the armor/range). then once u get 4-5 ravens, attack. MAKE SURE U DROP AT's (auto turrets) up first so they soak up damage, then bring your army and micro around the turrets. *remember, this is for the muta/baneling/ling strat* usually the first push ends it, if not the 2nd one will if you dont lose ravens. regardless, the best feature to this build is that YOU are the aggressor in this matchup. rather than relying on HARASSMENT, the zerg must respond to your build, not vice versa. I've seen countless high level games where the T is forced to respond with marine/tank because of baneling/muta.. well it doesnt add up and i've yet to see a Terran really make this build viable (yes MVP did well, but like i said above, it requires too much micro/skill for minimal gains; and no baneling+overlord was used in G1).
If the game progresses past the 1/2nd push with raven/marine/hellion/AT, then I switch to durable materials/HSM upgrades. this allows HSM to last VERY long and panic the zerg. in the event the game does go this far out, trust me, HSM will rape any muta combo (just bait him witth the ravens, he thinks you only got AT's most of the time).
--- if he went roaches i use the banshee build (i hit with 4, since 2 starport pump 4 banshees pretty fast, and 2 hit roaches and queens and can even take out single spore crawlers w/o losing one with micro). also, if i see he goes roaches, I make 2 tanks w/ siege outta my fact w/ tech lab before swapping it to a reactor for blueflame hellions. Sometimes I get 1 viking out first to harass ovies, and force a spire. thats what you want, YOU WANT A SPIRE!
I do have replays but am lazy to upload etc. but my record vs 1900+ zergs is IIRC 11-1. the one time I lost was to a roach/infestor build that caught ALL my ravens with fungal+infested terrans and.. that is GG right there. the whole point of the raven strat, like ive said in other posts, is to KEEP them(ravens) alive. every single raven has exponential value as the game progresses; whereas losing a marine is simply losing a marine, losing a raven is countless AT's, HSM, PDD potential.
PS. use auto turrets around the map to scout any harass, flying mutas, expos.. the autoturret for 50 mana lasts up to 6 min... well worth it to gain some map control and annoy zergs. not to mention, trading damage/potential killing mutas/zerg units for a MANA produced unit is a very, very good trade-off I think we just played against eachother. tooFreSH right? Your build is insanely annoying.
yep thats me :D
Okay ill upload some replays later tonight or tomorrow (got mts) I gotta dig em up. or maybe ill play some ladder and try to play as flawlessly as possible and upload an ideal replay =)
I'm calling it now: tvz is gunna have to involve some type of starport aggression with the recent reaper nerf... reactor hellion into mech just doesnt cut it as much as it should, theres too many possible counters to this build (dont end the game by hive and ur pretty much done). and as most ppl agree on this thread, MMM(or MM) + tank has very little margin for error and is not worth the risk. even a skilled player like mvp lost =(
with the starport aggression, many times my zerg opponent will sac an ovie and see 2 starport with tech lab and assume its autobanshee w/ cloak and, like tastostis have stated, this forces the zerg to promp at least ONE overseer+potential spore crawlers. I love this, not only are you leading the game, you're forcing your opponent to respond; and thus gives you window to choose between banshee (if roach) and raven (if muta/bling/ling). and trust me, spore crawlers do nothing vs ravens =D
|
Yeah, I want to see the marine/helion/raven build as well! Sounds good and what I esp like about it is that it also allows the taking of the third base and how you state that you want to force a spire.
So far in the GSL, I've been seeing the Terran successful only when they do some sort of timing push (off 1 or 2 bases). It'll be nice if some form of management style Terran can be developed.
|
Anyone saying Zerg OP or even thinking it, I have one answer for you Fruitdealer Vs Fauxer GSL2 Ro 32.
This shows what happens when sum1 gets back to the drawing board and formulates a meta-game changing strat rather sit on their butts and QQ all day about the problem.
Major, MAJOR props to Fauxer for his amazing non-cheesy takedown of The Fruit!
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
