EPTWhat are zerg 2v2 strategies? - Page 2
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Darkstar_X
United States197 Posts
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LOLtex
United States148 Posts
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691175002
122 Posts
Random 2v2 tends to be a lot better. Mutas are extremely strong because there are twice the openings to pick stuff off (In the same way, DTs can be very strong because both players need to get detection). To be honest though, I've never really considered zerg a very strong 2v2 random race though just because you can't wall and there is often a lot of early pressure so you might need to spine crawler up and skip the fast expand. | ||
lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
I have won a few macro games as ZZ though, with one person going sling/muta and the other roach/hydra/infestor--basically 2 standard Z builds. The great thing about some 2v2 maps is the abundance of backdoor rocks; you'd be surprised how, even at 1400~ diamond, a lot of people still don't pay attention to their rocks or don't block it. I leave the rocks with around 100 HP and don't break them completely, so they don't immediately notice. I always place squads of slings in key locations throughout the map, and when I see someone push out, threaten or go for a run-by. | ||
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Azn_Christian
United States153 Posts
2v2 zz. one go ling/muta. other go roach/hydra | ||
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Forsaken
United States43 Posts
Since your one base you have two options, speed ling for map control to protect your ally while he techs, or try some sort of roach push early. Ultimately zerg used to be great support for reapers because they were both so fast they exstablished amazing map control even cheese rushes aside. Now that zerg has to play alone they're more or less a foils for their ally to take an edge. If there's another zerg in the game you can do any sort of pressure and your job is basically to keep them from econing more than you are. Vs terran and Toss only mixes you'll never bust their base early, now that terran early range builds are gone. Vs zerg you can pressure, at least make him sunken up. Vs terran toss, fast roach can work with the new buff if it hits at around 5 minutes and to do some damage to econ. Fast roach is all in, your ally needs to go early units too which means rines or zeals and you both need to sac econ to hit early enough for it to be useful. only reason I say this is that roaches are inferior to stalker \ rauder in team fights mid game so if everyone econs and you try (non-expo) roaches the other races have more effective units. Roach bust with rine \ zeal \ sling support can be really effective if youre playing with team mate you coordinate well with, fuck up? it's almost embarasing how bad it fails. If zerg goes sling just assume toss\terran will effectively choke off making them useless for early harass. Zergs job then becomes to keep the opponents separated for as long as possible without wasting units so his ally can develop something game adjusting or expo. Good scouting and denying them scouting is more or less your biggest asset to the team. Biggest key: dont waste units. Scare them, control them, keep them from pushing as long as possible if they're early agro, and make techers make some units but don't actually fight. Slings only advantage in 2's is that they are so fast, they can separate people and ping pong them when they leave their base on split map. That's why they worked so well with reapers, ultimately you could separate the opponents and never let them combines forces because you were so mobile. Wasn't that you had more, was that it was constant 2v1. Problem with zerg now is that you more or less can't do true econ builds unless you want to flip a coin vs cheese. Top level play if you want to win constantly 12 is the latest you can pool, and hold cheese without too much pain, and 11 \ 10 isn't uncommon just because it doesn't put you that behind, but it's a hedge vs early rush. other reason people 11\12 is that TBH why not in 2's. Since you can never truely econ with zerg properly like you do in solo, why not just acknoledge it. Zerg has to 1 base, and when they finally do econ it usually comes in a huge burst of no unit droning when you've established map control 12 pooling really doesn't give an advantage unless you bane (since people have the option to pull drones off gas after speed unless they're massing gas for some reason). Generally I see top zerg in 2's 10 pool (or 12 if they know your rushing and wanna defend), and scout. If there's no sign of early pressure (2 gate toss or no addon rines) they'll drone to 12 and then sling to open up tech. Vs early pressure they ling up and pull after 100 gas till they get map control enough to hard econ. Vs zerg if you ten pool and just send lings vs an econ player he has to unit or spine while you get to decide if you can end or back off and drone. Now you broke even and have map control. Either way, hardest thing about team zerg is the idea that they need to play off 1 base (or flip a coin and just hope the oppenent doesn't early agro). You can roach bust, map control early with slings and let your partner take a tech \ upgrade edge while punishing mistakes with your mobility. Really zerg has no other options in 2's if they want any flexibility at all. 1 base play is the standard for early to mid mid game, and when zerg powers in 2's tends to be in a burst of no units and all drones, way more so than solo, since they're so behind at the start. Econing early is 12-13 drones instead of 10 (10 slowly transitions to 12 but 13 is the cap for a time) because TBH if you go sling on 1 hatch you need to to make constant units to hold common econ timing pushs (hit on stim terran or straight 4 warpgate toss type crap) you drone to 14-15 you gain no functional advantage for 5-6 minutes, you hit tier 2. or get a second hatch but you're vunerable right when those pushes are the strongest and before you can pump. Honestly 2's zerg exemplifies why zerg is the 'least begginer' race. Every time you decide to make units vs drone or vise versa there needs to be a reason. In 2's not changing your early build order gets punished 10x as hard and zergs midgame units are generally weak in 2's compared to toss\terrans. Making more than 12-13 drones is pointless on 1 base, and you can get away with 10 if you just sling and pull @ 100. Biggest difference is that timings in 2's are completely different in 2's than solo. Zerg can't econ in twos (safely) vs any decent team no matter what the build. Timing pushes hit right before you power and early cheese hits to hard to hold without units. Honestly that's the core of the problem zerg's have in 2's. They use solo timings, and get slapped by other races because they support each other. I'll break it down this way) 1: Early zerg needs to figure out the min amout of drones they need to fully ultilize whatever they're going on 1 hatch. Roaches? 16\17 (1 gas). straight lings? 10 (if you pull). Banes\ option to lair? 12-13. Then stop and make pure units till you controll the map. More drones at that point are useless and put you behind in units. You can't compete with other races long game on 1 base so don't try. 2. Dont waste units harassing. If you get a good opening go ahead and dive. Do NOT dive on ok maybe crap. Lings are scary cause they're fast, not because they're combat units. You waste your army, and don't do damage, your opps get together and shut you dont. Diving miners is the worst example, especially with 6-8 lings. You kill 4-6 miners? Now they have all their army left over to retal and you have next to no viable combat units. If you're going to dive only do it if it's game ending or just harassing. Lose youre whole army to take out some miners? You lose when they counter. Your role is to constanly pressure\scare them while not wasting units, not to fight straight up. Lings suck as tanks and youre 1 basing. That means you lose vs T\P combo armies in straight combat if you force a fight that you dont have a huge advantage on. 3) When you finally do gain map control burst the shit outta your econ. This is the turnaround for zerg, you use speed to keep them apart and in their base. Once you finally have map control go nuts on your econ, even feel free to take side expos you cant defend but that force them to run around killing them. For zerg to play midgame they have to get ahead economically or at least have a plan (ie saving gas and stalling for tier 3 or tanking for their allies tanks\collosi etc so they dont have to). Terran have medvacs and tanks. Toss have Collosi and high templar. All those units can end a game if the opps are still teir 1. Zerg has...... sorta banelings. Infestors are the closest thing as a second but again, the timing is wrong. Infestors in solo counter the size unit ball you see at that point. In 2's the ball is 3x bigger and infestors just aren't as effective as the other races comparable counters. Really zergs tier two is either muta\ling harass if there's a lotta expoing going on\ they dont have a ton of aa or tank, for your allies heavy anti ground so they can pump em harder, or stall for broods\ultras. Either way they hardest part is that people need to stop powering early, and know when to hard power mid game. There needs to be a point to everything you do. If you're building on 1 hatch zerg, you need nearly no econ to support it. Making more drones is pointless untill your ready\able to do something with your improved econ. If peoples stopped thinking about zerg in terms of 1v1 timing they'd do a lot better. 2-3 extra drones don't help. You can't support fast expo\2 hatch, so why bother. You're going to play from 1 base, that's just how it is, so figure out builds that revolve around that instead of trying to force your play around solo builds. Only reason zerg is hard for beginners or copycat players is that timing is so much more important. T\P can just constantly make scv\probes, and if they pull\stop them it's a conscience decision to go some sort of rush. Zerg has to put a lot more thought into when to econ and when to make units and people dont know how to do that in 2's yet, combined with the fact that the good 2's teams are so much better then the bad ones, not due to skill but because it's all timing. T\P timing is easy, zerg still haven't figured out when to stop making units and how not to waste lings when you go lings. There's a reason all the top 2's pre last patch were t\z and z\p. z\p is basically support each other insanely well vs both cheese and normal builds. T\Z had the best map control in the game with reaper ling. Top level, you don't kill people with 'cheese' you dominate the map and slowly cut them up. Both roles all zerg did was support his ally. | ||
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Forsaken
United States43 Posts
Roaches are pretty effective with speed lings as well with the range buff, Slings counter all the stuff that beats up roaches and roaches and bust chokes really well (5 minute pop attacking at 5:45\6 with 4 and 3 on the way). Its an all in build if it fails your fucked, but generally you can at least do enough damage to even the game out. Also holds cheese and rapes tech. | ||
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Forsaken
United States43 Posts
It's like I was saying about coinflip builds. People talk about cheese builds, ie 6 pool crap. TBH I duno why fast expo\high econ type crap isn't considered cheese too. You're basically crossing your fingers your opponent didn't counter it or pressure it, and if they did auto loss. Sure if you mass econ uncontested you win, but that's a gamble just like no econ rush. People who build in the middle, so they can kinda pressure hard econ, and defend no econ is the only advise that really I think is worth it. Perfect example. Toss in 2's at the mid level did the one step gap choke off to defend ling rush etc in 2's. Problem was vs reaper ling type rush... that build is a free win for your opponents if they're any good because they can pylon rape you and control your army all game. Top toss players built by their main, and protected their pylons. Sure vs a low pool alone it's easier to 1 gap choke at the cliff. The reason top teams would build near their base is that while straight melee rush stuff was more effective, it wasn't game ending, but now they could defend rushes that the other build couldn't hold. Thats zerg in a nutshell, theres a million things you can do. If you want to control the game vs just crossing your fingers you have two options. 5 min roach push all in, or map control speed ling. Any other build your just flipping a coin. | ||
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Oakstream
Sweden240 Posts
best strat evar! | ||
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Senorcuidado
United States700 Posts
edit: I actually had one game against ZZ where my partner got double 6-pooled to death but I got reactor hellions out and roasted every single drone one of them had and a few from the other. Then I followed up immediately with cloaked banshees and killed another 15-20 drones. I got some Vikings and just let my partner micro the air force to snipe overlords and overseers constantly and keep up the banshees while I expanded to his base and natural. Somehow I outmacroed them both by myself and killed them with 3/0 thors and tanks. It goes to show that cheesers really don't know how to play a macro game when it comes down to it, but that was fun as hell. | ||
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Hautamaki
Canada1311 Posts
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