EPTSo, what does a Zerg player do in 2v2s?
What are zerg 2v2 strategies?
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
Xanbatou
United States805 Posts
So, what does a Zerg player do in 2v2s? | ||
|
nlin
United States7 Posts
My partner and I have won a stupid amount of games with him spamming a tier1 unit that only requires min (Rine, Zealot, etc.) while he pools me gas for mutas. From there I usually get +1 after my first batch of mutas (same as in 1base muta vs T in 1v1s). It becomes very difficult for both players to defend BOTH their mineral lines, supply depot, etc. (basically anything you can pick off) This grants you map control, which in turn allows you to safely macro up. | ||
|
Xanbatou
United States805 Posts
| ||
|
PowerDes
United States520 Posts
When attacking, if the opponent you are hitting has the ally support them, have some speedlings redirect to that players base and wreck his mineral line. Zerg has a very overpowered mobility and unit number advantage in 2v2. Or One 2 hatch ling (15 drones on minerals, 3 on gas) the other one hatch speedling into muta (2 gas, have ally pool gas) | ||
|
BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On October 07 2010 01:57 BlasiuS wrote: I saw a post in the 'protoss is weakest in 2v2' thread that helped my ZX play a bunch: Watch that replay pack. THAT is how you play ZP. ZT is probably similar, with the Terran going reapers. I don't know how effective ling/reaper is in 1.1 with the reaper build time nerf. my build: 14 gas 14 pool 15 overlord @ 100% pool, queen + 2 lings at this point, pure lings ling speed @ 100 gas (almost immediately when pool finishes) baneling nest @ 50 gas @ 100% baneling nest morph banelings This is a great built that gives you fast lings, decent economy, early ling speed, and early banelings, as well as being able to handle any fast aggression from your opponents. If either opponent tries a cute defense/tech build, baneling bust and double-team attack will almost always kill him. On maps where the team shares a choke (Discord IV & Twilight Fortress for example), baneling busts are a bit harder to execute, and you can't really abuse your ling mobility; you may want to do a ling/muta build instead. to summarize, if you have PZ, gas-first speedling/bane + stalkers is extremely powerful. Oh and the replay pack was from before 1.1. Since then reapers have had their build time nerfed, and their nitro pack upgrade nerfed, and now can't be rushed out before depot is made first. So if anything, this PZ strat is even stronger now. edit: for reference, here's the team from the replay pack. They are currently #46 worldwide, 1,667 pts. with 249-25 record (that's 90% win/loss ratio) | ||
|
MangoTango
United States3670 Posts
~1400 diamond 2v2 (partner is Z, I Random. This strat works pretty well at high levels). | ||
|
Deleted User 118698
1 Post
He will go roach, hydra with infestors(infested Terran) Then I go mass lings to infestors( for infested Terran harass) to ultras This normally works well, we tweak it alot due to scouting and to counter others | ||
|
nlin
United States7 Posts
Got to low diamond (1k points), with strats like that....lol. There was a post on here a while ago written about 2v2 from Zerg POV, OP mentioned that he played semi-competitively? I'll edit and post the link if I can find it. | ||
|
Agenda42
United States112 Posts
1) 14 gas, 14 pool into fast evolution chamber -- get ling speed, place your expo, get +1 attack researched. Most likely transition is to infestor tech and then to ultras. 2) 15 pool, 16 hatch into mutaling -- should be pretty self-explanatory. Likes large maps, shared bases, or easily defensible naturals. 3) 14 gas, 14 pool into baneling nest -- This is quite typical when the opposing team includes a zerg. 4) Big roach -- Typically I play this off an expansion placed at 23-ish, and I like doing this most when playing with a terran teammate who can supply marines to support the roaches. I very rarely build hydras or broodlords, favoring a faster ultraling army for late game. Mobility is much more important than in 1v1 because there are so many more bases in a 2v2 game. | ||
|
Senorcuidado
United States700 Posts
Your strat will really depend on the MU and the map usually. Mutas are pretty awesome since there are more opportunities for harrass, especially on twilight fortress. If you're against another zerg banelings are great, and roaches should do well against toss. So much of 2v2 comes down to the t1 rushes, which is hard for zergs to defend. Try to rely on map control and contain with mutas or nydus, maybe while one of you techs to broodlords or just mass roach hydra depending on what you're up against. I think it's very important in 2v2 to be well rounded, it's bad for both unit comps to have the same hard counter. I play tz a lot and I'll rely on my partner to harrass and give us map vision and control while I get a good death ball. I also do tt with my brother and I tell him to just 3 rax every game while I do the fancy stuff depending on the MU. That can be ghost marine against pp, or hellions into cloaked banshees against zz/tz, or often just mass tanks in any MU. There is good synergy because he provides the meat and dps while I do the more apm intensive harrass, casters, positioning, and I can protect his bioball from its counters (like banelings) or just provide aoe damage to swing the battle in our favor. This stuff doesn't quite apply to a zz comp but you get the idea behind synergy. | ||
|
ProfessOfLies
United States21 Posts
I can quickly respond to pushes and give my partner time to macro while I either go Muta or infestor. After my partner has a sizable force, I rush tech to ultra or brood lord to finish it. I am more often than not partnered with a P. and I have found the unit combos to be pretty nice: Corrupter / Immortal Corrupter / VR Banelings + Mothership | ||
|
Penatronic
150 Posts
I just posted a pretty long reply in that thread. It goes over a lot of team stuff, from general tips for each race, some unit combos for some teams, and also suggestions for how to play vs other race combos. I talk about Zerg quite a bit, and none of it is double 6 pool... Though pooling for mutas is a good idea if your ally has floating gas. Zerg is the most different from team games to solo, IMO. I play almost entirely random race team games, arranged, random, different sizes, all diamond. | ||
|
Senorcuidado
United States700 Posts
| ||
|
Dudemeister
Sweden314 Posts
We can win about 60-70% of the games out right by going 7 roach rush for one player and ling baneling for the other. Alternatively one person goes 5 roaches and ling speed + reinforcing lings and the other ling baneling. If it fails one of us transitions into mutalisks and funnels all the gas to that player while both players expand during the harass. Or something in the lines of that. Very effective  | ||
|
Agenda42
United States112 Posts
On October 23 2010 05:37 Senorcuidado wrote: So much of 2v2 comes down to the t1 rushes, which is hard for zergs to defend. To defend early rush plays, scout early -- I send a scout on 9 regardless of what race I play, but it's especially important for zerg. If your spider senses are tingling, make an overpool build. It's very flexible: if your opponents are cheesing, you can still have 6 lings up in time to fight against a 6 pool, while if you see standard builds, you can make drones and end up about one drone behind standard play, but with a faster queen to compensate you. | ||
|
kthrss
Norway41 Posts
Against T or Z, I tend to go speedling, baneling, infestor into ultralisk w/double evo chamber upgrades. My teammate then goes hydras or mutas + whatever so we have some air and anti air. Against P we usually have one going roach/hydra and one going speedling/muta. Generally we have found double zerg to be inferior to some other combinations, for instance Z+P. The combination of Fungal Growth + Storm is just imba. 2v2 is just for lulz anyway, so anything goes as long as you have fun. Don't worry too much about builds, but make sure you cooperate with your teammate as much as possible. For instance, if you're going mutas, and your teammate is going something less gas-heavy, he can send you gas so you can make more mutas. Trade resources when you can to help eachother out. | ||
|
jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
So my friend and I went double 6pool every single game and skyrocketed up to diamond with a 75% or so winrate. Sad but true... | ||
|
kthrss
Norway41 Posts
On October 23 2010 08:08 jdseemoreglass wrote: I tried so hard to play 2v2 as standard as possible. I kept losing to double cheese again and again. Then finally, I played a game against reaper+void ray rush... I only have 100 gas, do I spend it on speed or lair? Do I go roaches or hydras? Suddenly, I realized that double cheese isn't just twice as powerful, its strength grows exponentially. So my friend and I went double 6pool every single game and skyrocketed up to diamond with a 75% or so winrate. Sad but true... Fair enough, if you find doing double 6pool 100 games in a row fun. Despite it being the most boring thing ever. | ||
|
dcberkeley
Canada844 Posts
On October 23 2010 08:08 jdseemoreglass wrote: I tried so hard to play 2v2 as standard as possible. I kept losing to double cheese again and again. Then finally, I played a game against reaper+void ray rush... I only have 100 gas, do I spend it on speed or lair? Do I go roaches or hydras? Suddenly, I realized that double cheese isn't just twice as powerful, its strength grows exponentially. So my friend and I went double 6pool every single game and skyrocketed up to diamond with a 75% or so winrate. Sad but true... Seems like a gross exaggeration. Cheese happens often but not every single game. And likely the problem is that you're two zerg. | ||
|
leve15
United States301 Posts
2 drones overlord 6 lings/ ling speed baneling nest when you can 12 banelings when nest pops your banelings should hatch when a protoss' warp gate research finishes (if he's 4 gate rushing) pretty good strategy.. don't listen to people in here about cheese dominating 2v2. I have 1650 points in 2v2 random, and I'm a macro player. It's called scouting. | ||
|
Darkstar_X
United States197 Posts
| ||
|
LOLtex
United States148 Posts
| ||
|
691175002
122 Posts
Random 2v2 tends to be a lot better. Mutas are extremely strong because there are twice the openings to pick stuff off (In the same way, DTs can be very strong because both players need to get detection). To be honest though, I've never really considered zerg a very strong 2v2 random race though just because you can't wall and there is often a lot of early pressure so you might need to spine crawler up and skip the fast expand. | ||
lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
I have won a few macro games as ZZ though, with one person going sling/muta and the other roach/hydra/infestor--basically 2 standard Z builds. The great thing about some 2v2 maps is the abundance of backdoor rocks; you'd be surprised how, even at 1400~ diamond, a lot of people still don't pay attention to their rocks or don't block it. I leave the rocks with around 100 HP and don't break them completely, so they don't immediately notice. I always place squads of slings in key locations throughout the map, and when I see someone push out, threaten or go for a run-by. | ||
|
Azn_Christian
United States153 Posts
2v2 zz. one go ling/muta. other go roach/hydra | ||
|
Forsaken
United States43 Posts
Since your one base you have two options, speed ling for map control to protect your ally while he techs, or try some sort of roach push early. Ultimately zerg used to be great support for reapers because they were both so fast they exstablished amazing map control even cheese rushes aside. Now that zerg has to play alone they're more or less a foils for their ally to take an edge. If there's another zerg in the game you can do any sort of pressure and your job is basically to keep them from econing more than you are. Vs terran and Toss only mixes you'll never bust their base early, now that terran early range builds are gone. Vs zerg you can pressure, at least make him sunken up. Vs terran toss, fast roach can work with the new buff if it hits at around 5 minutes and to do some damage to econ. Fast roach is all in, your ally needs to go early units too which means rines or zeals and you both need to sac econ to hit early enough for it to be useful. only reason I say this is that roaches are inferior to stalker \ rauder in team fights mid game so if everyone econs and you try (non-expo) roaches the other races have more effective units. Roach bust with rine \ zeal \ sling support can be really effective if youre playing with team mate you coordinate well with, fuck up? it's almost embarasing how bad it fails. If zerg goes sling just assume toss\terran will effectively choke off making them useless for early harass. Zergs job then becomes to keep the opponents separated for as long as possible without wasting units so his ally can develop something game adjusting or expo. Good scouting and denying them scouting is more or less your biggest asset to the team. Biggest key: dont waste units. Scare them, control them, keep them from pushing as long as possible if they're early agro, and make techers make some units but don't actually fight. Slings only advantage in 2's is that they are so fast, they can separate people and ping pong them when they leave their base on split map. That's why they worked so well with reapers, ultimately you could separate the opponents and never let them combines forces because you were so mobile. Wasn't that you had more, was that it was constant 2v1. Problem with zerg now is that you more or less can't do true econ builds unless you want to flip a coin vs cheese. Top level play if you want to win constantly 12 is the latest you can pool, and hold cheese without too much pain, and 11 \ 10 isn't uncommon just because it doesn't put you that behind, but it's a hedge vs early rush. other reason people 11\12 is that TBH why not in 2's. Since you can never truely econ with zerg properly like you do in solo, why not just acknoledge it. Zerg has to 1 base, and when they finally do econ it usually comes in a huge burst of no unit droning when you've established map control 12 pooling really doesn't give an advantage unless you bane (since people have the option to pull drones off gas after speed unless they're massing gas for some reason). Generally I see top zerg in 2's 10 pool (or 12 if they know your rushing and wanna defend), and scout. If there's no sign of early pressure (2 gate toss or no addon rines) they'll drone to 12 and then sling to open up tech. Vs early pressure they ling up and pull after 100 gas till they get map control enough to hard econ. Vs zerg if you ten pool and just send lings vs an econ player he has to unit or spine while you get to decide if you can end or back off and drone. Now you broke even and have map control. Either way, hardest thing about team zerg is the idea that they need to play off 1 base (or flip a coin and just hope the oppenent doesn't early agro). You can roach bust, map control early with slings and let your partner take a tech \ upgrade edge while punishing mistakes with your mobility. Really zerg has no other options in 2's if they want any flexibility at all. 1 base play is the standard for early to mid mid game, and when zerg powers in 2's tends to be in a burst of no units and all drones, way more so than solo, since they're so behind at the start. Econing early is 12-13 drones instead of 10 (10 slowly transitions to 12 but 13 is the cap for a time) because TBH if you go sling on 1 hatch you need to to make constant units to hold common econ timing pushs (hit on stim terran or straight 4 warpgate toss type crap) you drone to 14-15 you gain no functional advantage for 5-6 minutes, you hit tier 2. or get a second hatch but you're vunerable right when those pushes are the strongest and before you can pump. Honestly 2's zerg exemplifies why zerg is the 'least begginer' race. Every time you decide to make units vs drone or vise versa there needs to be a reason. In 2's not changing your early build order gets punished 10x as hard and zergs midgame units are generally weak in 2's compared to toss\terrans. Making more than 12-13 drones is pointless on 1 base, and you can get away with 10 if you just sling and pull @ 100. Biggest difference is that timings in 2's are completely different in 2's than solo. Zerg can't econ in twos (safely) vs any decent team no matter what the build. Timing pushes hit right before you power and early cheese hits to hard to hold without units. Honestly that's the core of the problem zerg's have in 2's. They use solo timings, and get slapped by other races because they support each other. I'll break it down this way) 1: Early zerg needs to figure out the min amout of drones they need to fully ultilize whatever they're going on 1 hatch. Roaches? 16\17 (1 gas). straight lings? 10 (if you pull). Banes\ option to lair? 12-13. Then stop and make pure units till you controll the map. More drones at that point are useless and put you behind in units. You can't compete with other races long game on 1 base so don't try. 2. Dont waste units harassing. If you get a good opening go ahead and dive. Do NOT dive on ok maybe crap. Lings are scary cause they're fast, not because they're combat units. You waste your army, and don't do damage, your opps get together and shut you dont. Diving miners is the worst example, especially with 6-8 lings. You kill 4-6 miners? Now they have all their army left over to retal and you have next to no viable combat units. If you're going to dive only do it if it's game ending or just harassing. Lose youre whole army to take out some miners? You lose when they counter. Your role is to constanly pressure\scare them while not wasting units, not to fight straight up. Lings suck as tanks and youre 1 basing. That means you lose vs T\P combo armies in straight combat if you force a fight that you dont have a huge advantage on. 3) When you finally do gain map control burst the shit outta your econ. This is the turnaround for zerg, you use speed to keep them apart and in their base. Once you finally have map control go nuts on your econ, even feel free to take side expos you cant defend but that force them to run around killing them. For zerg to play midgame they have to get ahead economically or at least have a plan (ie saving gas and stalling for tier 3 or tanking for their allies tanks\collosi etc so they dont have to). Terran have medvacs and tanks. Toss have Collosi and high templar. All those units can end a game if the opps are still teir 1. Zerg has...... sorta banelings. Infestors are the closest thing as a second but again, the timing is wrong. Infestors in solo counter the size unit ball you see at that point. In 2's the ball is 3x bigger and infestors just aren't as effective as the other races comparable counters. Really zergs tier two is either muta\ling harass if there's a lotta expoing going on\ they dont have a ton of aa or tank, for your allies heavy anti ground so they can pump em harder, or stall for broods\ultras. Either way they hardest part is that people need to stop powering early, and know when to hard power mid game. There needs to be a point to everything you do. If you're building on 1 hatch zerg, you need nearly no econ to support it. Making more drones is pointless untill your ready\able to do something with your improved econ. If peoples stopped thinking about zerg in terms of 1v1 timing they'd do a lot better. 2-3 extra drones don't help. You can't support fast expo\2 hatch, so why bother. You're going to play from 1 base, that's just how it is, so figure out builds that revolve around that instead of trying to force your play around solo builds. Only reason zerg is hard for beginners or copycat players is that timing is so much more important. T\P can just constantly make scv\probes, and if they pull\stop them it's a conscience decision to go some sort of rush. Zerg has to put a lot more thought into when to econ and when to make units and people dont know how to do that in 2's yet, combined with the fact that the good 2's teams are so much better then the bad ones, not due to skill but because it's all timing. T\P timing is easy, zerg still haven't figured out when to stop making units and how not to waste lings when you go lings. There's a reason all the top 2's pre last patch were t\z and z\p. z\p is basically support each other insanely well vs both cheese and normal builds. T\Z had the best map control in the game with reaper ling. Top level, you don't kill people with 'cheese' you dominate the map and slowly cut them up. Both roles all zerg did was support his ally. | ||
|
Forsaken
United States43 Posts
Roaches are pretty effective with speed lings as well with the range buff, Slings counter all the stuff that beats up roaches and roaches and bust chokes really well (5 minute pop attacking at 5:45\6 with 4 and 3 on the way). Its an all in build if it fails your fucked, but generally you can at least do enough damage to even the game out. Also holds cheese and rapes tech. | ||
|
Forsaken
United States43 Posts
It's like I was saying about coinflip builds. People talk about cheese builds, ie 6 pool crap. TBH I duno why fast expo\high econ type crap isn't considered cheese too. You're basically crossing your fingers your opponent didn't counter it or pressure it, and if they did auto loss. Sure if you mass econ uncontested you win, but that's a gamble just like no econ rush. People who build in the middle, so they can kinda pressure hard econ, and defend no econ is the only advise that really I think is worth it. Perfect example. Toss in 2's at the mid level did the one step gap choke off to defend ling rush etc in 2's. Problem was vs reaper ling type rush... that build is a free win for your opponents if they're any good because they can pylon rape you and control your army all game. Top toss players built by their main, and protected their pylons. Sure vs a low pool alone it's easier to 1 gap choke at the cliff. The reason top teams would build near their base is that while straight melee rush stuff was more effective, it wasn't game ending, but now they could defend rushes that the other build couldn't hold. Thats zerg in a nutshell, theres a million things you can do. If you want to control the game vs just crossing your fingers you have two options. 5 min roach push all in, or map control speed ling. Any other build your just flipping a coin. | ||
|
Oakstream
Sweden240 Posts
best strat evar! | ||
|
Senorcuidado
United States700 Posts
edit: I actually had one game against ZZ where my partner got double 6-pooled to death but I got reactor hellions out and roasted every single drone one of them had and a few from the other. Then I followed up immediately with cloaked banshees and killed another 15-20 drones. I got some Vikings and just let my partner micro the air force to snipe overlords and overseers constantly and keep up the banshees while I expanded to his base and natural. Somehow I outmacroed them both by myself and killed them with 3/0 thors and tanks. It goes to show that cheesers really don't know how to play a macro game when it comes down to it, but that was fun as hell. | ||
|
Hautamaki
Canada1311 Posts
| ||
| ||
