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On October 15 2010 19:44 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 19:13 apexplosive wrote:
I really dont understand where you guys are coming from. The void ray is doing what its designed to do. Killing armoured Units. Now its not a gimmicky unit used for sneaking into bases and killing buildings ALTHOUGH it can still do this since now it deals even MORE damage precharged(level1/2) against buildings. It can also support a regular army, and kill thors(which are made viable patch 1.1.2) and bcs. no-one uses voids for their precharge how often does it have to be said?? compare the new VR to the banshee 150/100 banshee - can cloak , actually kills buildings faster than VR now VR 250/150 - no cloak , nerfed speed upgrade , very mediocre against air units
Oh really?
Lets compare them.
Banshees deal 24 damage per hit with cooldown of 1.25
Void rays deal 10 damage per hit with cooldown of 0.6 (assuming building) Uncharged
It takes 6 seconds for a void ray to charge to level 3. Lets say a building has 1500 hp (CC)
In the first 6 seconds, the Voidray would deal 100 damage, the Banshee would deal 115.2 damage.
Then the Voidray will start doing 16 damager per hit with a cooldown of 0.6, which means 32 damage in 1.2 seconds. I think the Void ray can easily deal extra 15 health damage in the a few seconds.
This patch just makes the Void ray a better army support unit than a Gimmicky unit.
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On October 15 2010 20:12 apexplosive wrote:
Oh really?
Lets compare them.
yeah, let's compare them
1st - banshee-damage is NOT limited to armored units; void rays are mediocre vs armored and SUCK vs light; banshee is good vs everything
2nd - void rays cost more! how can you seriously compare DPS when not taking into account that void rays cost 100/50 more?
it's as I said: terrans would love us protoss-players to stupidly sink money into void-rays as support; well, not gonna happen, nobody will
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So I am pretty disappointed by the max DPS being lowered, after consideration and some experimentation, I think the VR needs a buff with weapon upgrades to be effective late game (+2 per level against armor instead of +1 when charged only), and it needs to get it's 1 armor back, but is otherwise fine. VR price might be lowered in minerals but the gas price should be the same or else it will be possible to continually pump VRs from 2 stargates on one base, which I think would defeat the purpose of the nerf.
First let me explain how I use VRs in my build. I tech to an early stargate, so that I can get 5-6 gateway units and a VR at 5 minutes. Then I use the VR to harass while I expand and switch to robo tech or tech to carrier/mothership + lots of gateways.
- VR will not kill the enemy base, but it will still kill his workers or supply buildings if he ignores it. So it still pins him to the base.
- VR is slightly weaker against an opponent with bad reaction time, but against, say, a zerg player who has his Queen there attacking before you can even charge on his extractor, it's just as good since you're doing more damage while charging on the first queen. It will probably take 2 VRs to kill a fast expo instead of just one, now.
- Because of lowered armor and damage nerf, terran will probably never fall to VRs, but it still might make him make turrets (don't make turrets vs void rays now, btw, terrans, marines are too good against VRs due to them losing their 1 armor), and VRs are still good to have on defense to clean up marauders after your stalker army dies killing all his marines, and speedrays still outrun vikings, but only just, making him choose between stutter step micro and trying to get back to his base.
- Previously, I felt my opening was strongest against Protoss, this is the thing that I wonder about the most, however, it will probably still cause him to spam stalkers. If so then my opening will still be effective, if not, I will have to do something else. I will probably not be able to hold off a 4 warp gate rush when the Protoss goes all stalkers anymore. This will be the hardest thing to adjust to, and it definitely makes this mirror match even more extremely boring. Improving the weapon with the upgrade would make it possible to hold off a stalker waprin, as you could chrono boost the weapon upgrade on your cyber core. Protoss recently have been getting good at hiding 4 WG from a scouting worker, so I will have to make the call blind.
- VRs now beat just over equal resources in corrupters ( 7 corrupters = 4 VRs). It would be nice if it was better, but at least this means carriers are viable, but does require more void rays than before.
- VRs beat thors, but not if they are repaired. Before, you could sometimes focus down a thor being repaired but no longer. Terrans, get your thors! And remember you can repair battlecruisers like they were thors, too!
- Although the reward is less for microing the charged Void Rays, it is greater for microing uncharged void rays, especially on the defense. So, although I am dissapointed that I no longer have the incentive to get really good with VR micro, my general micro skills will improve from using VRs in a fight.
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finally they are brought down on earth, took so much time for Blizzard to realise it.
Poor noobs, they cant get to platinum with only one unit now.
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The void ray changes are a definite rebalancing, not a nerf. I played a game where there was lots of void ray on viking action, and void rays in a straight up fight absolutely destroy vikings now because of the 6 +4 damage stage 1 attack. Vikings, when microed, will still beat the void rays. Interestingly, the change to the speed upgrade means a group of void rays has more difficulty overtaking and destroying a group of vikings. I checked the editor, and upgraded Void Ray has a speed of about 2.95, whereas a viking has 2.75. Previously an upgraded voidray had a speed of 3.25, which is a pretty big speed drop. They definitely feel more sluggish.
I did some simulation on the effectiveness of the pre-1.1.2 void ray in comparison to the post-1.1.2 void ray, versus some common enemies they face in a one-on-one fight (I realize it's unrealistic to expect a void ray will fight just 1 marine or just 1 stalker, but I was more interested in how fast the new void ray kills those units)
According to liquidpedia, a void ray will stay on damage level one for 13 attack cycles, and then be bumped up to damage level three. A stalker, having 80 shields, and 80 hitpoints with 1 armour:
Pre-1.1.2
13 x 5 dmg = 65 damage (charge up period)
4 x 25= 96 damage (factoring for armour)
A pre-1.1.2 void ray take 17 attack cycles to destroy a stalker (10.2 seconds)
1.1.2 void ray
13 x (6+4) = 125 damage (charge up period, adjusting for armour)
3 x 16 = 45 damage (adjusting for armour)
A 1.1.2 void ray take 16 attack cycles to destroy a stalker (9.6 seconds)
Versus viking
Pre 1.1.2
13 x 5 = 65 damage (charge up period)
3 x 25 = 75 damage (charged, kills viking)
Total: 16 cycles (9.6 seconds)
1.1.2
13 x (6+4) = 130 damage (kills viking during charge period)
Total: 13 cycles (7.8 seconds)
I decided to calculate the damage curves where a Pre-1.1.2 void ray becomes more efficient, and it takes 20 attack cycles (12 seconds) versus unarmoured targets for the old void ray to become more efficient (135 damage mark). Against armoured targets, it takes 23 attack cycles (260 damage mark, 13.8 seconds) before the old void ray is more efficient.
My conclusions from the above data: (This ignores pre-charging, which while relevant, is not what I'm discussing)
-A 1.1.2 void ray will kill any non-armoured target of less than 135 HP faster than a pre-1.1.2. That means it is:
More efficient than before vs:
Mutalisks, zerglings, banelings, reapers, banshees, marines, ghosts, SCVs, probes, drones, pheonixes, autoturrets.
Less efficient vs queens, archons
-A 1.1.2 void ray will kill an armoured target of less than 260 HP faster than a pre - 1.1.2
More efficient than before vs:
Vikings, stalkers, Missile Turrets, Maurauders, Roaches, Corrupters, Broodlords
Less efficient vs carriers, mothership, battlecruisers, thors, photon cannons, spore crawlers.
In summary, an analysis of the available data shows the void rays was rebalanced rather than nerfed. It is not a one-trick pony, but leaning towards being a strong aerial assault unit efficient at destroying armored targets. Because of the changes in their damage dynamics, they are more efficient at harassment now - rather than "harassment with the hope of leveling the guy's base".
The major change to fully charged damage also means that it is more feasible to take down void rays that are wrecking your base: they wreck your base slower, and they wreck your mass of guys you send at them slower.
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On October 15 2010 20:59 MikeT wrote:
The void ray changes are a definite rebalancing, not a nerf. I played a game where there was lots of void ray on viking action, and void rays in a straight up fight absolutely destroy vikings now because of the 6 +4 damage stage 1 attack. Vikings, when microed, will still beat the void rays. Interestingly, the change to the speed upgrade means a group of void rays has more difficulty overtaking and destroying a group of vikings. I checked the editor, and upgraded Void Ray has a speed of about 2.95, whereas a viking has 2.75. Previously an upgraded voidray had a speed of 3.25, which is a pretty big speed drop. They definitely feel more sluggish.
I did some simulation on the effectiveness of the pre-1.1.2 void ray in comparison to the post-1.1.2 void ray, versus some common enemies they face in a one-on-one fight (I realize it's unrealistic to expect a void ray will fight just 1 marine or just 1 stalker, but I was more interested in how fast the new void ray kills those units)
According to liquidpedia, a void ray will stay on damage level one for 13 attack cycles, and then be bumped up to damage level three. A stalker, having 80 shields, and 80 hitpoints with 1 armour:
Pre-1.1.2
13 x 5 dmg = 65 damage (charge up period)
4 x 25= 96 damage (factoring for armour)
A pre-1.1.2 void ray take 17 attack cycles to destroy a stalker (10.2 seconds)
1.1.2 void ray
13 x (6+4) = 125 damage (charge up period, adjusting for armour)
3 x 16 = 45 damage (adjusting for armour)
A 1.1.2 void ray take 16 attack cycles to destroy a stalker (9.6 seconds)
Versus viking
Pre 1.1.2
13 x 5 = 65 damage (charge up period)
3 x 25 = 75 damage (charged, kills viking)
Total: 16 cycles (9.6 seconds)
1.1.2
13 x (6+4) = 130 damage (kills viking during charge period)
Total: 13 cycles (7.8 seconds)
I decided to calculate the damage curves where a Pre-1.1.2 void ray becomes more efficient, and it takes 20 attack cycles versus unarmoured targets for the old void ray to become more efficient (135 damage mark). Against armoured targets, it takes 23 attack cycles (260 damage mark) before it is more efficient.
My conclusions from the above data: (This ignores pre-charging, which while relevant, is not what I'm discussing)
-A 1.1.2 void ray will kill any non-armoured target of less than 135 HP faster than a pre-1.1.2. That means it is:
More efficient than before vs:
Mutalisks, zerglings, banelings, reapers, banshees, marines, ghosts, SCVs, probes, drones, pheonixes, autoturrets.
Less efficient vs queens, archons
-A 1.12 void ray will kill an armoured target of less than 260 HP faster than a pre - 1.1.2
More efficient than before vs:
Vikings, stalkers, Missile Turrets, Maurauders, Roaches, Corrupters, Broodlords
Less efficient vs carriers, mothership, battlecruisers, thors, photon cannons, spore crawlers.
In summary, an analysis of the available data shows the void rays was rebalanced rather than nerfed. It is not a one-trick pony, but leaning towards being a strong aerial assault unit efficient at destroying armored targets. Because of the changes in their damage dynamics, they are more efficient at harassment now - rather than "harassment with the hope of leveling the guy's base".
The major change to fully charged damage also means that it is more feasible to take down void rays that are wrecking your base: they wreck your base slower, and they wreck your mass of guys you send at them slower.
So against 1 stalker, 1 void ray is better, but against 2 or more stalkers, it's worse. Also, when you have multiple void rays attacking, they will be less likely to even get to their charge cause they will be more likely to kill their units without gaining the charge. In any sort of battle above very small #s of units it's much weaker. When would VR counts = stalker counts?
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That's a good analysis, but there are some targets you simply should never have engaged without precharging: marines, missile turrets and stalkers. (Ideally queens, but there's either one of them, so go for it, or there's five of them with energy for transfuse and you shouldn't fight that). Now, you should never engage these targets with void rays at all, even if they theoretically take more damage if you should be crazy enough to charge on them. That is not a rebalance, that is a nerf.
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Two stalkers have a combined life of 320, which is above the threshold where the old void rays were more efficient. However, a charged void ray was too efficient vs. stalkers - I remember many times having a single charged void ray in my opponent's base, two stalkers come up, and it melts both stalkers while sustaining only some health damage.
In PvP, in a straight up fight, army versus army, the new void ray is superior because the damage they do versus stalkers and other armoured units while charging up. There's no longer this 7.8 second window in an army engagement where void rays are doing piddly damage - they do actually pretty good damage now versus armoured units - they actually frontload their damage better (loading damage at the beginning of the battle. I'm speaking in terms of ball versus ball battles including zealots, stalkers, sentries, maybe immortals / collosi on one side and void rays on the other) They are inferior when they are snuck-in to wreck your base, because them being charged isn't quite so scary now.
I decided to try them out just for fun to see if they were really nerfed as badly as everyone was saying. They've had a slight role shift. They're more viable as a main army unit and less as a cheese / cheap win unit.
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Haven't really read the thread except OP nor played since patch. I think the patch is a move in the right direction. Blizzard is trying to change them from the gimmicky play/cheese they pre-patch were forced into.
We will see if this is an overnerf with time, but this change tells me that Blizzard is actually trying to make the VR a more staple unit, which can only be positive. I trust blizzard to not be afraid to buff the VR if they were overzealous with the nerfhammer(which I don't particulary believe they were).
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I welcome the void ray nerf. It used to totally overshadow carrier and once a numbers are out on the field it's completely broken. It utterly and totally break team games.
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I hope Blizzard eventually takes a look at Protoss air arsenal.
VR: cost ineffective and gimmicky unit that is horrible vs anything that can fight back.
Carrier: cost ineffective unit that is hard countered by a couple vikings/corruptors (and protoss has no hard counter to corruptors anymore)
Phoenix: gimmicky paper unit. terrible at dealing with ground (they get bonus dmg vs stuff such as marines/hydras/lings; units that you're never going to graviton anyway) and only get bonus dmg vs mutas/fellow phoenixes...
When Zerg and Terran see enemy air units or colossi, they think "corruptor/viking". When a protoss sees the same thing, they have to think "erp... time to slam more gates and spam more stalkers"
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Dear Blizzard,
If you want us to use void rays as an army support unit, please make them cheaper. Protoss air was already probably the least-used tech tree; VR harrass was one of the few reasons you'd take it (along with pheonix-muta kiting and Funday Monday).
VRs as they are now do not a core-army unit make. They have separate upgrades, a separate tech tree, and probably won't even be the most mobile anti-air/anti-ground unit you'll have (blink stalkers).
Signed,
The Protoss Players (+ Random!)
PS: I agree that charged rays were probably too good, but post-patch they're just not worth the price when I could pump my gateway/robo forces instead. Make them cheaper, or quicker to build, or Protoss air is going to be even more underused than it is now.
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This change makes fazing better.
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On October 15 2010 16:16 MayorITC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 11:16 tournamentnow wrote:
It's an overall buff to the void ray in all situations even its good as part of your army. It does double DPS vs armored now while uncharged is more than enough to compensate for the 40% nerf to charged dmg vs armored. Its insane now in PVP. What a misleading statement by using percentages. Voidrays got an additional +5 uncharged damage to armored units while losing while losing 9 damage charged. And let's not forget that any competent Protoss player will have his Void rays precharged before any major battle so uncharged damage is negligible. That's like buffing Viking ground damage by 300% then nerfing it's aerial damage by 200% and calling it a buff overall since 300% > 200%.
That was a really bad example, everyone would mass 48 damage ground mode vikings, that would actually be a huge buff and you can't nerf damage by 200%, unless you make the unit deal negative damage, i.e. actually healing it's target.
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On October 15 2010 21:39 Phrencys wrote:
I hope Blizzard eventually takes a look at Protoss air arsenal.
VR: cost ineffective and gimmicky unit that is horrible vs anything that can fight back.
Carrier: cost ineffective unit that is hard countered by a couple vikings/corruptors (and protoss has no hard counter to corruptors anymore)
Phoenix: gimmicky paper unit. terrible at dealing with ground (they get bonus dmg vs stuff such as marines/hydras/lings; units that you're never going to graviton anyway) and only get bonus dmg vs mutas/fellow phoenixes...
When Zerg and Terran see enemy air units or colossi, they think "corruptor/viking". When a protoss sees the same thing, they have to think "erp... time to slam more gates and spam more stalkers"
this in a nutshell
although I realize you can't really compare the races, what protoss lacks is a straightforward air-unit that is just "good" vs either ground or air (armored);
as it is, all 3 protoss air units are highly situational, as you summarized; not particularly "bad" but not a unit you will feel comfortable fighting your opponent with; phoenixes are awsome for harass, but you definitely can't fight anything with them except mutas; carriers have their place in PvT, but get so hardcore-owned by vikings, you better have mass-stalkers or a couple of storms ready or you are toast;
void rays didn't fill this empty hole in protoss-tech before the patch and don't fill it now; they are too expensive for what they do in battle, you will never be able to picture a situation where you'd prefer the void ray over ANYTHING ELSE - this is the core problem, you have always some other units that are much more worth their cost; a colossus just costs 50/50 more --> in 90% of the cases I'd take this colossus over one void ray any day; gas-wise you can get one HT instead of one void ray; again, the storm will be so much better, I'd gladly take it;
due to 0 armor (nerfed because high dps) and low range (nerfed because high dps) void rays suck when the opponent had some marines, or some hydras; they die way too quickly to justify their extremely high cost; giving them 1 armor back would've maybe meant balance because rays then wouldn't die to marines so incredibly fast...
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fazing doesn't work any more.
On October 15 2010 21:16 MikeT wrote:
Two stalkers have a combined life of 320, which is above the threshold where the old void rays were more efficient. However, a charged void ray was too efficient vs. stalkers - I remember many times having a single charged void ray in my opponent's base, two stalkers come up, and it melts both stalkers while sustaining only some health damage.
Unless the opponent had the skill to kite your VR, which I ran into a few times. It is possible to only take one hit from the VR, make your hit, then run away, in this way 2 stalkers can kill a VR. It is silly to warp in units under a VR of course. Never do this.
On October 15 2010 21:16 MikeT wrote:In PvP, in a straight up fight, army versus army, the new void ray is superior because the damage they do versus stalkers and other armoured units while charging up. There's no longer this 7.8 second window in an army engagement where void rays are doing piddly damage - they do actually pretty good damage now versus armoured units - they actually frontload their damage better (loading damage at the beginning of the battle. I'm speaking in terms of ball versus ball battles including zealots, stalkers, sentries, maybe immortals / collosi on one side and void rays on the other) They are inferior when they are snuck-in to wreck your base, because them being charged isn't quite so scary now.
I decided to try them out just for fun to see if they were really nerfed as badly as everyone was saying. They've had a slight role shift. They're more viable as a main army unit and less as a cheese / cheap win unit.
I completely disagree because their pre-charge damage still has them only doing slightly more damage than one stalker. It is simply not worthwhile to risk your VR for this, their slow speed means they will be targeted first. Even after charging, their damage is equivalent to 2.75 stalkers. This is more reasonable but only barely equal cost if you lose your void ray. It may be ok if you are defending from a ramp or choke where you can be sure they will not be able to run up to your void ray and you can pull it back when it loses it's shield. However otherwise I will prefer to charge it on my own buildings and only use it in an emergency.
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There was actually a very large stealth nerf to vr on top of this.... NOT MY RESEARCH BUT TRUE
a charged voidray costs 250m/150g/3s and deal 16*1/1 damage/s vs armored without upgrades.
upgrades are an undocumented change as well, because prepatch they did
10(+3 per upgradelevel) + 15(+1 per upgrade level) vs armored -> 25,29(L1),33(L2),37(L3) vs armored
now the do
8(+1 per upgrade level) + 8(+0 per upgrade level) vs armored -> 16,17(L1),18(L2),19(L3) vs armored
so the actual change is - 18 damage vs armored fully upgraded and charged, you could say the damage was halfed.
Upgrades are not always relevant in vr play, but most were able to squeeze out at least +1 before the 3gate 1stargate push....
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On October 15 2010 21:39 Phrencys wrote:
I hope Blizzard eventually takes a look at Protoss air arsenal.
VR: cost ineffective and gimmicky unit that is horrible vs anything that can fight back.
Carrier: cost ineffective unit that is hard countered by a couple vikings/corruptors (and protoss has no hard counter to corruptors anymore)
Phoenix: gimmicky paper unit. terrible at dealing with ground (they get bonus dmg vs stuff such as marines/hydras/lings; units that you're never going to graviton anyway) and only get bonus dmg vs mutas/fellow phoenixes...
When Zerg and Terran see enemy air units or colossi, they think "corruptor/viking". When a protoss sees the same thing, they have to think "erp... time to slam more gates and spam more stalkers"
carrier is cost effective against viking and corruptors. carrier can defeat 3 vikings with mininmal micro and 2 corruptors.
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I can't vote, the options don't reflect the actual truth - which is that the change is in the purpose and meaning of void rays, not in their strength. There is no nerf/buff/balancing here. For all we know, void rays could be balanced in both cases simultaneously (old and new version); they now just have different purpose in the game.
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I like the changes to the void ray. Maybe it will affect the PvP matchup (read hopefully). I now see non-charged void rays as more of a threat against armored targets than before. Since most Protoss make stalkers along with the Robo centric army in PvP and non charged void rays got a rather significant boost to damage against armored. In my opinion front-loaded damage is better than back-loaded since stalkers could kill all your void rays before they got charged pre 1.1.2. Now void rays will do more damage before they are destoryed. I'm not saying it will revolutionize the matchup, but I do see it as a step in the right direction!
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EPT
