EPT[D] 1.1.2 Void Ray changes (with poll) - Page 10
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Strangeling
France2 Posts
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
An issue in PvT that arises from this is that it becomes near impossible to open phoenix either due to the void ray change. Here's why...even before this patch there were some timing thor pushes that were actually pretty strong against the phoenix, who cant lift them. Thors do so much dps straight away that gateway armies fall to them horrible (especially when repaired). So a typical game like this against thor push would involve a phoenix getting pumped, me flying over their base with it and seeing a quick armory... then stopping phoenix production... and trying to get a void ray to defend myself against the thor. Since thor is a gas heavy tech, they are normally accompanied by a crapload of marines and maybe a few marauders that they can squeeze in for the extra gas. Well as you know, marines crap on void rays, crap on rangeless collossus, and they crap on immortals. Against a good terran, this two thor push will not be defendable without robotech. It comes too soon to switch over from stargate tech and basically, as you guys that play protoss know... your robo or stargate gets you your more reliable scouting information than your sacrificial probe so having to choose robo every game is definitely not something im looking forward to. I really think the thor pushes will become more prevalent in the near future esp knowing that you cant soften them with templar (necessary change imo). so TLDR: I dont mind opening robo I just dont like the fact that I have to. | ||
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Mystgun
Hong Kong311 Posts
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rezoacken
Canada2719 Posts
It was a pain to counter BC with VR before the nerf. A lot of BC with yamatos aren't easily countered by void rays. You had to let die half of your VR to yamato and BC dps before they were charged up and start killing BCs. Now I don't know, Voids will make far better damage at the start of the battle but I wonder how it balances out on the whole battle. Sure mass BC are rare but it hapeens here and there late PvT and there is still this fast BC with scvs auto repair that can be really troublesome. | ||
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OfficerTJHooker
Canada97 Posts
One time I was doing a 4v4 random and I decided to mass voidrays, just to see what it was like. The results were quite impressive. Backed by my allies ground armies, I was able to build up a charge on their battlecruisers and absolutely rip through them. None of my allies even thought to get capital ship anti-air (We had a couple of thors and hydras, but the BCs were positioned on a cliff so it was hard to aim at) so I had to say I might have been one of the deciding factors of the match. Looking at the patch notes now, I seriously question the options that protoss have against capital ships. Carriers get blown apart by yamacruisers, phoenixes can't do shit against armored targets, and blink stalkers makes them extremely vulnerable to the terran's ground army. What exactly do toss have that can counter capital ships? I understand that blizzard wants to move the unit into a more 'standard' place in an army by dealing modest damage in charge level 1 and unarmored units, but for their price they are just not viable at this point of the game. Basically, I have 3 suggestions for the way this can go. 1. (Someone mentioned this) Keep the void rays damage as of post-patch, but instead of +8 bonus against armored make it +15 massive. This way it keeps it's niche as a capital ship/unit sniper as terran and zerg both have. 2. Lower the cost of void rays. That simple. 200/125 would help, but many players still wouldn't find the cost justified. 3. Retain its original charge bonus damage against armored, but reduce its base damage. Basically, to find a solution for the void ray problem, we (and blizzard) have to set a goal in what kind of unit the void ray is supposed to be. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
Either you focus down the 2 queens with a gateway + 2 void army and win, or you miss-micro for one second and lose two of them, dooming you to the snowball effect for the rest of the match. EDIT: No, you don't want 7 range. As a P player I openly acknowledge this as being ultra OP in just the same way as when a reaper could kite a roach (pre-patch). Every AA defensive structure would HAVE to be the furthest structure from the center of a base or else the VR can pick off without reproach every one of these structures, even ones next to the AA defense. | ||
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KaoReal
Canada340 Posts
On October 16 2010 04:17 tehemperorer wrote: I think the VR's cost is correct. I have actually evaluated the effectiveness of the unit and, true to its design, it either works super effectively, or falls hard and flat. In terms of investment, it is probably the most risky unit in the P arsenal, as its risk/rewards comparison is quite polar. Either you focus down the 2 queens with a gateway + 2 void army and win, or you miss-micro for one second and lose two of them, dooming you to the snowball effect for the rest of the match. EDIT: No, you don't want 7 range. As a P player I openly acknowledge this as being ultra OP in just the same way as when a reaper could kite a roach (pre-patch). Every AA defensive structure would HAVE to be the furthest structure from the center of a base or else the VR can pick off without reproach every one of these structures, even ones next to the AA defense. like banshees do? | ||
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Zvendetta
United States321 Posts
VR's now do base damage of 10- just under the threshold of immorts, and I think by the time the voird ray charges almost all of the shields will be drained anyway-enough to kill an immort out of position easily. And since PvP is one giant colo mosh pit atm, voidrays can be now be a reasonable addition to the toss' army composition without being this gimmicky harass unit. I'm not saying that VR's will stop colos as well as vikings/ corrupters do, but I think it will add some dynamics to PvP. And maybe Carriers were just looking for some VR support to be loved again | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
@Zvendetta: VRs are not really a good choice in PvP because some players do almost exclusively stalkers and then colossi, but you might want to try 2gate robo stargate... It is a timing attack, and will beat FE play or a fast colossi strat. It is a 2 gateway force, plus 2 immortals and 2 phoenix, and the transition is colossi | ||
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ZapRoffo
United States5544 Posts
Stalkers also can be warped in, come from the most versatile production building that is cheap and also doesn't cost gas, can gain blink for superior micro-ability, have the same range. 3 stalkers (same gas cost as a VR, less if you add stargate gas cost) blow a VR out of the water and do more DPS than a charged VR against everything. And to top it off, you can't pre-charge nearly as well before going into battle, which is what used to make them shine in army confrontations. It's less effective and hurts your stuff more. | ||
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-157864.jpg) But Void Rays are still reasonable against a queen or two. I need to get used to them being weaker, but my strategy still works. I would have kept my VRs in the old days. I lose this game, but only because I haven't played in a couple days and my APM is slipping. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-157866.jpg) | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-157868.jpg) | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-157876.jpg) | ||
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Proximo
38 Posts
RIP Toss air: VR is slow garbage now, Carriers too expensive, too slow to build, too slow to move, and tech intensive, and the Phoenix is a situational POS. | ||
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Reborn58
United States238 Posts
They are costly, fragile, slow (until upgraded), and are part of a tech tree that is basically worthless in early to mid game now. | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
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Gimpb
293 Posts
As for the flux vanes change, I did think that was just strait up too much speed for that heavy a unit. I'm wondering if this will mean more voids in armies now that the charge won't be quite so much of a hassle and they'll still be pretty good against armored without it. It seems like it'll make voids considerably more popular in pvp. | ||
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ZapRoffo
United States5544 Posts
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-157891.jpg) They are significantly weaker against protoss 4WG, and it takes slightly longer to kill an expo. Notably, I cannot decide just to pump gateway units + VRs and expand; I have to make a robotics facility first. But they are of more use midgame if I manage to save them. I do think the Void Ray use will be limited in other cases. A few big changes have occured, Void Ray no longer seem useful as a counter weapon; eg if they go to attack your base, you won't be able to do major damage with 4-5 void rays, so you'll need to go for the mineral line instead of just eating through buildings. They are much better to keep with your main army. I find this a little disappointing, because it amplifies the Protoss "one big army" effect. But it is acceptable I suppose. | ||
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