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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On August 26 2012 20:37 Guamshin wrote:
A question about gas timings here.
Alot of amateurs/pros think the gas timings are about what the game time is or what your supply is. However it's really all about your strategy and how many drones you have. Simple example: You don't want to get 2 gas at your natural if you have very few drones there, but, you DO want to get both gasses if it's oversaturated(more than 2 rows on the minerals).
You have to take into account that most high masters and pros are really consistant in their drone production. They always have atleast X amount of drones at minute X, so they can make those assesments instead of having them be dynamic. They have probably also optimized those gastimings for their specific build as well ( most certainly for terran and protoss, zerg tends to try and delay gas for an economic advantage ).
On August 26 2012 20:37 Guamshin wrote:
Now, i want to know how much gas can support what, like can i constantly make roaches 2 upgrades and lair of of 3 gasses? That sort of stuff i want to know. Is there some general rule or guide for this stuff? I really want to get my gas timings perfect.
One gas gives you about an upgrade a minute. You will have to rely on zerglings to stay alive if you want to have this little gas income though. But for stuff like early game ZvZ, having one gas up is more than enough to keep you alive until you start your lair. You can make one gas work in ZvT and ZvP as well, but you will have to make it earlier than the standard timings and you'll miss compared to double gas openings.
Double gas ( what most of the zergs do nowadays in ZvT and ZvP ) can get upgrades out at an increased rate. Useful for catching up in tech, like get lair and ling speed at the same time. You can support double upgrades as well, but you will be forced to stay on Zerglings and other mineral based units for defense for longer.
Three gas geysers can support roach production off of two bases consistantly, but not much else. Similarly four gas geysers will support constant roach production off of a fully mineral saturated three bases without additional tech.
Two bases with all four geysers taken can be seen as a tech all in ( relying on your tech to get you an economic advantage to make up for the later third base ) like going 2 base infestor or 2 base mutalisk. These kind of builds are really only limited to ZvZ as solid though, they can definitely work in the other two match ups but are not really a standard.
Three bases with all geysers taken can support almost everything that you need, like double upgrades with constant unit production and so on. You can support a lot muta or infestor production as well ( although you will bank a ton of minerals ) and not be considered as all in as you will have your econ to back you up if things go awry. You can pull off 3 base ultralisk/baneling if you have to, but I tend to only use that in ZvT where they don't allow me to get a fourth up before them and I just want to screw them up in a big timing attack.
If you want to go broodlords, it is pretty much mandatory to have atleast 4 to 5 bases worth of gas income lest you want to be completely all in and have no possibility of rebuilding when you lose them. You also need this econ if you want to tech switch between the two hive units.
Large tech switches are really tough off of three bases, but you can pull them off if you play them correctly. In ZvP for example you can go for a large tech switch to mutalisks if you feel yourself to be in dire straights with no signs of a fourth coming up soon. However you will have to stay on zerglings for a long time to get the gas bank for that. Constant pressure will give you the ability to do one large tech switch ( roach/ling into muta production ) but you will abandon all hope on any lategame tech. It works in ZvP because mutas in large groups can force the Protoss on a maximum of 3 bases while you basically stay on 3 base economy as well, migrating mined out base drones to additional bases instead of ever being on a full 4 base economy. Eventually overwhelming the Protoss because you can keep trading with the stalkers until he simply doesn't have the production or econ neccesary to withstand the huge mutalisk ball.
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Hey i got a question regarding ZvZ. Master 1600 points.
When in ZvZ where both i and the opponent takes our natural and third at aprox the same time, and we both are going roach heavy, i find it difficult to balance when i should be making drones / units. Some games i see him take his third and i make almost only roaches until the 3rd is complete, but he's been making drones and is now ahead because i couldn't punish him efficiently, and some games i lose because i do a wave of drones and a 2base roach attack comes and his expo is only there to fake going macro.
when using my larvae, should i always use defenders advantage to squeeze in 1-2 (maybe 3) drones each larva wave and then make roaches, or are there some major scouting revealers that'll help me figure out his intentions?
Sorry for being slightly bm but i'd rather only get advice from high-masters / gm's.
Thanks in advance, and if you could pm me your response aswell that'd be super awesome!
EDIT: If you want to find me in-game to chat, my account is spShellow.209
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hi everyone, could you suggest me a good zerg injection method?
There are so many listed on internet...
Search. The question is asked a million times by people who don't know how to use the search engine. I like backspace inject method (remap backspace to spacebar), I can't understand why anyone would use anything different once you learn to really control it (queens are so awesome in lategame, why woulnd't you want 6+ of them).
When in ZvZ where both i and the opponent takes our natural and third at aprox the same time, and we both are going roach heavy, i find it difficult to balance when i should be making drones / units. Some games i see him take his third and i make almost only roaches until the 3rd is complete, but he's been making drones and is now ahead because i couldn't punish him efficiently, and some games i lose because i do a wave of drones and a 2base roach attack comes and his expo is only there to fake going macro.
You can't really make drones when your third isn't done yet. So while that's going on, make roaches. By the time third pops, lair should roughly be done, at which point an overseer with a changeling can see if he's pumping roaches or drones with his larva, if he made tech (hydra den, 2nd evo), or not. I wouldn't push more than 5-10 drones at the third until you know for sure what's going on. If you make like 5-10 roaches too many and the opponent made a lot of drones, you can use those roaches to force the opponent to make units, so it kind of balances out, at which point you can start up some tech with the map control. If you find you are on the defensive, just pump units, even lings if your gas is low (they are great for killing him if he tries to retreat). As long as you don't go past like 5-10 drones after your third pops and make sure to see what the opponent is doing first, and get some units while third is building, you should be okay.
If you could provide a replay, that may be helpful too.
After that sort of period of 'growing pains',you should be free to just drone right up to about 20-25 drones at your third while getting a hydra den.
If he doesn't plan to drone up his third at all, then you should be fine because you made a handful of roaches while third was going up (don't pre-emptively drone it, only add drones when third is about to pop), and that will buy enough time for you to get lots of units. It's really important you have an overlord by his third to see if he adds drones. Really, an overseer should tell you what you need to know.
It doesn't really matter if you like to go like half drone half units when making stuff, or make like 5-10 drones, and then units. Just when third is going up, drone very conseratively, don't do any sort of 20+ drones all at once, and with the handful of units you already made while third is going up, you should be able to have 20+ drones at that third in between 1 or 2 periods where you pump a round of roaches. Or just go half roach half drone, if that's how you play.
doesn't really make sense what you say about how you pumped roaches and the opponent pumped drones and suddenly you are behind. You can't mine from that third until it pops, until then, it really doesn't matter how many drones he has, you are both on 2 base (i mean at this time obviously you both have at least 2 base saturation). If he turns out to just make 20+ drones for his third right when it pops, or like oversaturated so he could transfer, those roaches you pumped atabout 60+ while the third was going up should be able to do some damage, and give you enough information to know you can do something to capitalize on a temporary army advantage and map control, like take your fourth or skip hydras and go straight into infestors. Overlord by his third and an overseer goes a long way
1400 masters, so maybe i'm saying stuff you already know. i dont really see a problem here though. make units while third is going up, only add ~10 drones when it pops and then scout and make a decision on drone/units based on what you see. Even poking forward with this handful of units is a good idea, after all, you know his roach speed won't be done anytime soon, and it will let you see his unit count, which is probably where you'll want to send your overseer first thing (or a couple lings).
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On August 26 2012 22:19 JonIrenicus wrote:
hi everyone, could you suggest me a good zerg injection method?
There are so many listed on internet...
Basically I would say there are 3 main ones that ppl use
1. Backspace. Rebind spacebar or something else (i use Q) and have all your queens on same hotkey
2. Hotkey each queen separately. 55 v click 66 v click 77 v click etc..
3. Use either camera hotkeys or (backspace) to cycle thru hatcheries while boxing queen and injecting.
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Yesterday I played a zvp. The p built a pylon, and then 2 cannons at my natural (before nexus). I went for a 14 pool. What would be the best course of action? I'm guessing being patient, taking down the cannons, then proceed as normal? I screwed up bad, went for my 3rd instead, got bent over, and raped 
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So, how do we detect and defend toss all ins? I know a gate-core opening generally means a 4gate, but what about 4gate +1 or 7gate?
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On August 27 2012 16:45 gronnelg wrote:Yesterday I played a zvp. The p built a pylon, and then 2 cannons at my natural (before nexus). I went for a 14 pool. What would be the best course of action? I'm guessing being patient, taking down the cannons, then proceed as normal? I screwed up bad, went for my 3rd instead, got bent over, and raped
You can proxy hatch, go for 1 base nydus-roach-ling (and maybe spines :p) all in, or clear out the pylon/cannons with 4-6 drones pulled.
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On August 27 2012 17:19 SickeL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 16:45 gronnelg wrote:Yesterday I played a zvp. The p built a pylon, and then 2 cannons at my natural (before nexus). I went for a 14 pool. What would be the best course of action? I'm guessing being patient, taking down the cannons, then proceed as normal? I screwed up bad, went for my 3rd instead, got bent over, and raped You can proxy hatch, go for 1 base nydus-roach-ling (and maybe spines :p) all in, or clear out the pylon/cannons with 4-6 drones pulled.
I'm looking for a non-aggressive respons, so I can transition into a normal game.
So pulling drones would be one? I'll have to watch the replay, but I think I scout it to late (with my standard expand drone) to deal with it, with only 4-6 drones...
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Send your 9 Overlord to your natural, to scout for exactly these types of shenanigans.
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On August 27 2012 17:27 Salivanth wrote:
Send your 9 Overlord to your natural, to scout for exactly these types of shenanigans.
I tend to send my 9 overlord to the enemy main. But I guess I dont really need to send it ount so early.
Also, are you implying that I need to see it happen, as soon as it happens to be able to deal with it?
i.e. the only viable way to deal with it, is to stop it before it happens? Meaning that once the cannons go up, you're basically screwed as far as a normal game goes?
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Yesterday I played a zvp. The p built a pylon, and then 2 cannons at my natural (before nexus). I went for a 14 pool. What would be the best course of action? I'm guessing being patient, taking down the cannons, then proceed as normal? I screwed up bad, went for my 3rd instead, got bent over, and raped
If Toss ever builds a pylon that isn't in the open (ie blocking the hatch), you should pull 4-5 drones per building. The reason you don't pull 4 drones to attack a standard pylon block is because it's in the open, and any cannons he attempts to put in it's power field would be easy to surround as well. But a pylon anywhere else should illicit an immediate 4 drone pull, with 4 more drones pulled per every extra building.
Check out my ZvP guide, I just added 2 reps that specifically show how to deal with a cannon rush:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038
Even when lings pop, dont stop pulling drones, since 2-4 lings on their own won't stop the 5+ cannons toss can afford around the time a 14 pool would finish (hence why a cannon rush autowins against hatch first, eventually he has enough money to get more than 4 cannons, which would require 16+ drones to take down, which you don't have).
Sounds like you just lost to a cannon rush, that's all. Taking your third just puts you on 2 base vs a 3 base toss, so your only course of action as as follow-up would be something like a hatch tech roach/ling or baneling all-in or 2 base muta/infestor, which are kind of 'all-innish' and sub-optimal openings (in a way, they are still viable), except you'll be a bit behind, and it'll be harder to pull off since these builds rely on the safety of a choke+spines to keep from dying to early pressure or timings.
Your initial overlord should go to Toss' natural/ramp (hotkey it so you can move it around, move away from a warping cannon, go check his main to make sure he grabs 2 gas...), and your 9 overlord to your natural. You can send your 16 overlord to the Toss main and it'll get there by 5:00, way before Toss puts down tech, and 2 minutes before you'd want to sac it.
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On August 27 2012 17:18 SickeL wrote:
So, how do we detect and defend toss all ins? I know a gate-core opening generally means a 4gate, but what about 4gate +1 or 7gate?
Granted we see a FFE or Nexus first:
Chronoboost on warpgate - generally gateway aggression around 8 minutes
Chronoboost on forge - could be a lot of things, if no gasses are taken at the natural it means gateway aggression.
Double gas at around 6 to 6:30 - 2 base all in, most commonly immortal sentry all in.
Making sure you scout the front and the gasses at his natural is the most mandatory kind of scouting in ZvP. You can send in a second overlord in the main to aid in your choice of countering.
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^ We should stop answering questions that have been answered a million times already. 'ZvP guide' 'how to hold toss all-in' 'belial is awesome' . a google on any of these would have brought up guides that answer all of these sort of knucklehead questions that have been answered a million times. and does no one else actually read the posts of the thread before posting in it, geez. or at least search through that thread.
then again, tl search function is kind of weird ~_~
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On August 27 2012 19:20 Belial88 wrote:
^ We should stop answering questions that have been answered a million times already. 'ZvP guide' 'how to hold toss all-in' 'belial is awesome' . a google on any of these would have brought up guides that answer all of these sort of knucklehead questions that have been answered a million times. and does no one else actually read the posts of the thread before posting in it, geez. or at least search through that thread.
then again, tl search function is kind of weird ~_~
It's a small effort for me, something to do during breaks. Don't see why I should stop answering questions regardless of how simple or easy they are to find. The simple questions and answers thread could basically be removed if we went by that kind of logic.
It's okay if you don't want to answer them, but I'll answer as much as I can in my breaks.
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I watched MLG this weekend and noticed many zergs go for a early roach thing against Terran.
They get like 6-7 roaches at 6 minutes which they just annoy the Terran with and kill some SCVs and take a third+ drone behind that!
Anyone have a replay of someone doing this? 
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In ZvZ, when do you get a spine, if at all? Assuming both players go econ builds (15hatch or 15pool). I don't really have a timing for it yet but I always feel safer with one than without one, but I don't know if the pros do it. I just sort of throw one down before I start teching.
In ZvT, how viable is it to go for the 2gas after 4 queens + 3rd style, as opposed to the 6queen style? It seems better to me, but only because it gets speed/roaches faster, so it feels a bit safer, although the creepspread will not be as good and the antiair won't be as prevalent.
Finally, how do you feel about the 2base muta or 2base infestor for ZvT and ZvP? I assume it's bad in ZvP, but 2base muta in ZvT seems nice considering the current standard builds from Terran. I mean, I'm starting to even go pool first in this matchup just because almost everyone blindly goes 1rax FE on lowground or 15CC on lowground and a pool first can really mess them up.
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In ZvZ, when do you get a spine, if at all? Assuming both players go econ builds (15hatch or 15pool). I don't really have a timing for it yet but I always feel safer with one than without one, but I don't know if the pros do it. I just sort of throw one down before I start teching.
ZvZ is by far my fave matchup because it is SO volatile... I get a spine for some reasons in ZvZ but mainly to have some kind of defence VS light ling run bys. I usually get my spine with an evolution chamber to wall off with your hatch. Also, a spine will help you against any kind of ling overflow and make it easier to defend ling/banes all in
Finally, how do you feel about the 2base muta or 2base infestor for ZvT and ZvP? I assume it's bad in ZvP, but 2base muta in ZvT seems nice considering the current standard builds from Terran. I mean, I'm starting to even go pool first in this matchup just because almost everyone blindly goes 1rax FE on lowground or 15CC on lowground and a pool first can really mess them up.
I never really liked 2base mutas just because it is a very big investment (much like DT) and easily counterable by the opponent (1-2 turrets/lines + marines and he's all set).
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ZvP muta/ling basetrade:
http://drop.sc/243764
I end up winning, but it's really, really close. Uncomfortably close in fact, and I know the game shouldn't turn out like that, and it's my most recent ZvP basetrade. Please help as far as build/timing/scouting. Some of my own notes:
*I don't really watch many pro games, so my entire build could be waaaay off.
*I'm still uncomfortable with pure droning, so I end up with quite a low worker-count (I forget the ideal number of drones at nth minute, but it must be way higher than what I had).
* Despite having 3 overlords scouting I did not end up seeing his robo. I started thinking he must be proxying his tech, lol.
*I made a ton of drones just before he moved out, and lost some lings trying to bate forcefields when he moved out.
Should I just start spining my main ramp as soon as I see him move out? And maybe run drones away earlier so I can save more of them? This particular game was won I felt because of my opponent's mistakes, rather than me playing well. I probably should have a ton of lings ready to go for the basetrade, when all I had were mutas more or less.
Thanks!
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If terran goes bio I go ling,baneling, muta.
But if terran opens mass helions, he is probably going mech.. should I switch to mass roach and try to drop into base to kill factories(if he goes mass hellion than I suppose he plays mech).
I don't have an answer vs mech.
Is this correct vs mech:
.early roaches, try to drop, and fast to broodlords(or ultralisk), infestor, ling?
thanks
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EPT
