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^ That's actually terrible advice, I wouldn't listen to that. No one does a roach/ling anymore in high level play, and most pros don't do any ling/bane aggression either because it's so easily stopped by the new queen range, the popularity of a third queen added at 40+ these days, and because a defensive baneling nest + spine stops any ling/bane aggression cold. Ling/bane wars are totally a thing of the past, the metagame has moved on.
And mutas stomp quick roach builds (any 2 base lair build stomps quick roach builds really...). That's completely off to say something like 'mutas get countered by roach builds', that's totally not true, and if anything, the complete opposite is more true, in that muta builds just stomp early roach builds like that, including 9:30 +1 roach builds.
ZvZ: How much is this matchup just a coinflip? I mean, if I go for a muta-build and my opponent goes for some roach all-in there is literally no way to stop it.
Are muta-builds just not viable in ZvZ, in that it build-order loses to a lot of stuff? Maybe I need to just spam roaches like everyone else seems to do.
A roach/ling all-in should be hard countered by a 2 base lair build like mutas. It shoudl be pretty easy to scout a roach/ling all-in coming because he isn't adding any drones at his natural (please check out my "Belial's Comprehensive Guide to Overlords!" guide in my profile) as you see with your overlord that you keep by his natural drone line in 100% of all ZvZ, you do do this right? If you didnt thats clearly why you lost...
You dont need to be a pro at drone counting, just look at his mineral line ~50. Look at yours. Now back at his! His, should look similar to yours! If it doesn't, it's a roach/ling all-in! No gases added at the natural and no third taken either are clear warning signs he's doing a roach/ling all-in as well. If he makes roaches before ~50 supply, or your lings run in and see a roach warren/roaches before his third is taken (or lair and natural gases all taken), then it's a roach/ling all-in!
it should be pretty easy to stop with good macro though. Oh he's moving out with 10 roaches! Good thing you have 50 drones and a shitton of minerals, throw down 5 spines, and continue droning! Or, er, make some lings if you are worried, maybe some banes too. Not a big deal, easy to stop.
Here's a rep where I stop a roach/ling all-in. I knew it was coming because I saw him take no gas at the natural and have no third base yet, and his mineral line didn't have as many drones as mine, which made me suspcious and send in a ling scout, which you should always do anyways, and see the roach warren/roaches/no lair or gases taken.
http://drop.sc/242734
Once you see a roach/ling all-in, don't take a third at 50-60 like you normally do, as what he's doing is essentially a 4 gate, and if he doesnt kill you, he loses, he can kill even every drone, but with 10+ mutas you should win the game anyways. Just turtle up on 2 base and get a huge tech advante with infestors/mass speedroaches/mutas (mutas are the most standard reply, really).
There is no 'spam roaches' in zvz early game. Speedlings rape roaches without +1, so if you see someone clearly not taking a third or lair by 50 supply, you should check what's up and probably throw down spines.
I don't know why you say 'spam roache slike everyone else seems to do', as no one does this all-in at the highest levels of play. It's because good macro just stomps it. Oh 10 roaches moving out? Morph a couple defensive banes to deal with the mass ling reinforcement, make 5 spines easily, win. Lack of drones at the nat, no gas at natural and no third taken yet, roaches made before 50 supply or a roach warren, are all clear indicators of this zerg 4 gate, which, like a regular 4 gate, is'nt really viable anymore.
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where can i find the bo for the 6 queen build?
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If you're talking ZvT, it's in Belial's guide to ZvT. Here it is, though you should probably check out the guide too:
"So this build is mostly a response to 1 rax FE, although it is fine against other openings, like reactor hellion (you will need to add some lings or a spine though) and similar fast expand builds.
The Basic Build Order is as follows:
Hatch First
2xQueens
2xQueens
~45 Third, 2xGas
1xQueen, 1xQueen (ie next 2 queens made after third and gas, from same hatch)
~50 Single Spine, Speed, Baneling Nest or Roach Warren
60+ 2xGas
70 Evolution Chambers (1 or 2, up to you, will finish in time to meet Banshees)
Macro Hatch when Third is done, Lair"
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Hey guys, this is mostly theorycraft, but after reading chaos's guide on understanding delays, wouldn't it be a practical way to get broodlords out in time for the 3+ colossus 3 base pre-hive timing? I believe the issue was that you need a wall of spines to buy you 30-60 seconds for broodlords....2 contaminates on the robo does the same thing for a lot cheaper! You can deal with non-colossus armies with zerglings and a few spines, and your broodlord timing won't be delayed by making a few overseers. Just wondering; it should be viable IMO. It's a timing that always exists, but not if you delay it by 2:00 by investing 200/200 in overseers!
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^ The problem is the overseers will delay you too. Spines don't delay you because gas=time. You can have every base on the map but you can't get gas until after time has passed, due to only 2 per base. Overseers also take a long time to back up that contaminate energy. Maybe if it wasn't nerfed.
Maybe it's viable though. That's just my take on it. I feel like changelings are pretty damn good though, so not using changelings kind of sucks. I guess if you are making 4 overseers you won't need changelings though.
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When you scout with lings in zvz? how many do you send in?
I like sending two because one just seems too flimsy
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On August 25 2012 13:54 Belial88 wrote:
^ The problem is the overseers will delay you too. Spines don't delay you because gas=time. You can have every base on the map but you can't get gas until after time has passed, due to only 2 per base. Overseers also take a long time to back up that contaminate energy. Maybe if it wasn't nerfed.
Maybe it's viable though. That's just my take on it. I feel like changelings are pretty damn good though, so not using changelings kind of sucks. I guess if you are making 4 overseers you won't need changelings though.
True. I'm not in the mood for math/timing theorycrafting, but I think that if you spent gas occasionally you could delay his colossus count by 2. 1 colossus just isnt scary lol. It delays me, but I think it delays him more. Basically I spend 200 gas to deny him spending 400 to kill me. Still gotta build some spines I guess, but a whole hell of a lot less than just turtling. I just can't do it in my games; just sit there for 4 minutes waiting for my broodlords? Sounds so crazy to me, I've gotta at least be scouting and annoying him with overseers.
I think it's totally viable, and once I get better -> higher MMR -> better Protoss opponents, I'll be sure to try it out.
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On August 25 2012 13:54 Monsyphon wrote:
When you scout with lings in zvz? how many do you send in?
I like sending two because one just seems too flimsy
2's a good number because it a spine and queen kill 1 too quickly, 2 forces either a wasted bane or your base getting scouted.
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On August 25 2012 14:14 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 13:54 Belial88 wrote:
^ The problem is the overseers will delay you too. Spines don't delay you because gas=time. You can have every base on the map but you can't get gas until after time has passed, due to only 2 per base. Overseers also take a long time to back up that contaminate energy. Maybe if it wasn't nerfed.
Maybe it's viable though. That's just my take on it. I feel like changelings are pretty damn good though, so not using changelings kind of sucks. I guess if you are making 4 overseers you won't need changelings though. True. I'm not in the mood for math/timing theorycrafting, but I think that if you spent gas occasionally you could delay his colossus count by 2. 1 colossus just isnt scary lol. It delays me, but I think it delays him more. Basically I spend 200 gas to deny him spending 400 to kill me. Still gotta build some spines I guess, but a whole hell of a lot less than just turtling. I just can't do it in my games; just sit there for 4 minutes waiting for my broodlords? Sounds so crazy to me, I've gotta at least be scouting and annoying him with overseers. I think it's totally viable, and once I get better -> higher MMR -> better Protoss opponents, I'll be sure to try it out.
Whenever I play against Protoss and want to do anything contaminate-y I prefer doing it right after I killed his army. AKA kill his lategame army, move through the base with overseers to see if he has any stargates, forges or a nexus warping in a mothership. It certainly helps against Collosi, but I find that those are hardly a problem in the lategame with the ability to do 80+ ling reinforcements.
In the midgame, once they have blink and are turtling it is a lot harder to get a full scout off. I don't like doing contaminating then considering dropping would delay his push regardless as well, and you can do a lot more damage with 2 overlords filled with zerglings.
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So, I scout fast gas and then scout robo in ZvP. I tech up to muta, get +1 armour and lingspeed and when he pushes out I send my lings to his base (mutas not done yet). He just warps in 1 zealots in his choke and proceeds to rape my 3rd. Once mutas pop I send all my muta/ling to his nat but by then hes warped in 15+ stalkers to defend, and proceeds to rape my natural. By the time I get back with my army to destroy his push it's already over because I have 1 base and he has a fuckton of stalkers.
Seriously, how is muta/ling ever supposed to work vs 2base all-in? I've given up on it, I will only make a spire if I see a 3rd and if no 3rd I'll just spam roach/ling and hope my opponent doesn't know how to use forcefields.
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Hi I wanted to know if you guy's knew how many overlords you would have to make to make roaches on 2 bases constantly without getting supply blocked, I have tried 3 per inject and it work's okay, I was just wondering if it was like that for all the other 2 supply worth units. and also i think for roach you only need 2 geysers and for lair units maybe 4. what do you guy's think?
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Hello. So I am a platinum zerg with average micro at best. What would be the best opening in ZvZ for me? I struggle a lot with 1-2 base ling (w or w/o baneling) aggression i.e. aggression off of either an early pool or 14/14.
Is 15p/15h/15g good at all? Or am i better off 15p/15g? Thanks!
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So, I scout fast gas and then scout robo in ZvP. I tech up to muta, get +1 armour and lingspeed and when he pushes out I send my lings to his base (mutas not done yet). He just warps in 1 zealots in his choke and proceeds to rape my 3rd. Once mutas pop I send all my muta/ling to his nat but by then hes warped in 15+ stalkers to defend, and proceeds to rape my natural. By the time I get back with my army to destroy his push it's already over because I have 1 base and he has a fuckton of stalkers.
If he's warped in 15 stalkers at home, it means he should not have anything with his ground army. Proceed to kill his entire immortal/sentry army, then retake your third while just harassing the hell out of Toss with the mutas as he's almost mined out on 2 bases with no blink or storm anywhere near done.
I would recommend against getting +1 upgrade on your lings, or even an evolution chamber, until after Toss looks to be expanding, as the upgrade cuts into your muta count, and won't be out in time anyways.
But 15+ stalkers at home should be easy to deal with using 15 mutas and 60 lings. The mutas should focus that zealot down instantly (or pylon, gateway, whatever the case may be) so your lings can go in, which are the real base traders. Mutas are just good in endgame when no one has a base, to force him to stay around a pylon which you can focus down before he can kill your mutas anyways, and their mobility. But for brute force, lings tear up buildings so much quicker (but are susceptible to things like zealots or sim city, which mutas help out with).
If you could provide a replay, that'd be a lot more helpful.
You should also check out my ZvP guide and check out the replay in the replay section on how to beat immortal/sentry using quick mutas. Maybe we are doing some things differently. Nestea doing it against Lure is also a great vod to study on that, I didn't realize the timings he threw down his spines and pumped lings until after I failed attempting to do his build multiple times.
Hi I wanted to know if you guy's knew how many overlords you would have to make to make roaches on 2 bases constantly without getting supply blocked, I have tried 3 per inject and it work's okay, I was just wondering if it was like that for all the other 2 supply worth units. and also i think for roach you only need 2 geysers and for lair units maybe 4. what do you guy's think?
I think you should go into build order tester and figure it out for yourself instead of asking others to do it. Why would you go 2 base lair roach in any match-up? That's just a terrible build no matter what match-up you were playing. You can check out my ZvP guide in the overlord section, it says roughly when to make overlords for the first 8 minutes though.
Hello. So I am a platinum zerg with average micro at best. What would be the best opening in ZvZ for me? I struggle a lot with 1-2 base ling (w or w/o baneling) aggression i.e. aggression off of either an early pool or 14/14.
Is 15p/15h/15g good at all? Or am i better off 15p/15g? Thanks!
Hatch first. Use 2 queens to block the ramp as you go baneling nest first and a spine in main to put into low ground. Don't inject, transfuse spine, drone up. Over time, make it so you get speed first, and you start injecting with queens instead of waiting for the banelings before injecting. I personally 10 drone scout so if the opponent is early pooling, I can reactively go 15 pool 15 hatch instead, and if they are going hatch first, I make up for the 10 drone scout by blocking their hatch, and going 17g/17p
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What is the best BO for a pool>hatch>gas build? I've been going:
15 pool
16 hatch
16 gas
15 queen
17 overlord
then 2 sets of lings, if I need the second set out quickly I use the extractor trick to get it out before the overlord. This seems to be working quite well for me as its quite safe and doesn't idle larva, but I'm unsure as to whether or not I need the gas out that early to be safe against most all-ins. Would I be better off just delaying the gas a little if I don't plan to do any early ling/bane aggression? Even if I don't plan to do any early aggression, earlier gas would of course allow me to do so reactively if there is an opening.
Also, under what circumstances should I get speed or baneling nest first when going for a pool>hatch>gas build and when going for a hatch>gas>pool build?
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^ that sounds about right. Maybe a 17 gas, i think you are delying gas specifically though.
I think it was miya vs effort or something, but it looked like pool/hatch seems to get hard countered by 14/14 opening, specifically 14/14 ling/bane all-in. Effort (or whoever, Im pretty sure he was a bw guy, maybe roro) went straight for it and clearly 'knew' the opponent would go pool/hatch.
I wouldn't bother making any lings though unless the opponent clearly didn't go hatch first or pool/hatch when your overlord gets to his natural. I think 17 overlord might be a bit late, take it like 17 gas 16 overlord? And when you take gas doesnt have too much to do with if you plan to do ling/bane aggression or not, you kind of need speed/banes pretty early on, and with pool/hatch you are already going to be later than any other opener on that.
I have no clue on when you should get speed, bane when going pool/hatch, but I think you are probably safe to go speed/bane (i mean you are always safe to go speed/bane, really, just i think sometimes bane first is a little easier, ie hatch first vs no expansion yet, ie 14/14 to earlier pools).
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On August 26 2012 14:07 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +Hello. So I am a platinum zerg with average micro at best. What would be the best opening in ZvZ for me? I struggle a lot with 1-2 base ling (w or w/o baneling) aggression i.e. aggression off of either an early pool or 14/14.
Is 15p/15h/15g good at all? Or am i better off 15p/15g? Thanks! Hatch first. Use 2 queens to block the ramp as you go baneling nest first and a spine in main to put into low ground. Don't inject, transfuse spine, drone up. Over time, make it so you get speed first, and you start injecting with queens instead of waiting for the banelings before injecting. I personally 10 drone scout so if the opponent is early pooling, I can reactively go 15 pool 15 hatch instead, and if they are going hatch first, I make up for the 10 drone scout by blocking their hatch, and going 17g/17p
I'm going to waste a post's worth of space seconding this because I really feel like people don't get how ridiculously good 15h aka hatch first is, and the common reason why it doesn't get used in ZvZ is that people scare themselves into 14/14. Fear of early pools doesn't mean go 14/14, it means 9 or 10 drone scout. Only thing you need to be afraid of is 10pool variants. Follow belial's step-wise learning method (though don't forget, you need 4 lings to morph to 4 banes), it sounds really solid. I learned it by always going bane nest first, actually.
Side note: I still sometimes go bane nest before speed if I feel like there's a TON of early lings from 14/14 (first inject going into lings can be scary if your bane nest is late). Don't know if this is good or not, because if you overmake lings you can't counter-pressure with such late speed, should he eat a big bane hit. But the moment you have banes behind that spine and the two-queen block, you're really, really safe, and bane nest first means that safety happens a little faster.
Another note: 15h/16p/17g is my go-to greedy-ish ZvZ build, but the beauty of 15h is that you can adjust and do stuff like 15h/14p/14g, too, as a slightly safer variant (for smaller maps, when there seem to be a few too many lings out, etc.).
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How come nobody ever uses overlord drops in say, ZvT or vP that much? In all of my time watching pro games, streams etc. i've only seen overlord drops once. I know that they're basically countered by turrets, cannons or spores but even then it should be possible to get a bunch of lings in, using drops? Think about it, terrans like to drop marines all over mineral lines, so why dont zergs do the same thing? Is it because its just too expensive to invest in, considering overlord speed and capacity is basically a must for drops?
I've been thinking about using drops in every matchup (maybe 'xept vZ where ling runbys are better in a way), but i just dont know if its worth the investments, considering its kinda gas expensive.
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A question about gas timings here.
Alot of amateurs/pros think the gas timings are about what the game time is or what your supply is. However it's really all about your strategy and how many drones you have. Simple example: You don't want to get 2 gas at your natural if you have very few drones there, but, you DO want to get both gasses if it's oversaturated(more than 2 rows on the minerals).
Now, i want to know how much gas can support what, like can i constantly make roaches 2 upgrades and lair of of 3 gasses? That sort of stuff i want to know. Is there some general rule or guide for this stuff? I really want to get my gas timings perfect.
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On August 26 2012 20:07 tehcaekftw wrote:
How come nobody ever uses overlord drops in say, ZvT or vP that much? In all of my time watching pro games, streams etc. i've only seen overlord drops once. I know that they're basically countered by turrets, cannons or spores but even then it should be possible to get a bunch of lings in, using drops? Think about it, terrans like to drop marines all over mineral lines, so why dont zergs do the same thing? Is it because its just too expensive to invest in, considering overlord speed and capacity is basically a must for drops?
I've been thinking about using drops in every matchup (maybe 'xept vZ where ling runbys are better in a way), but i just dont know if its worth the investments, considering its kinda gas expensive.
In general there aren't many zergies out there that rely on harassment play. Most prefer to simply get hive up sooner and save that gas up. On top of that, it isn't as natural to get drops as it is for say Terran, which get them in every MM composition.
Sheth and TLO are the people that come to mind when I think Zerg drops. But they often use it in ZvP rather than ZvT from what I've seen on their streams. Zerg doesn't have many units that wreck stuff fast unless they get in really large numbers, Protoss has a similar 'problem' in their drops, but it is not as appearant because you can warp in together with dropping at the same time.
I won't talk about ZvT because I don't have any notable experience with drops in that match up, but in ZvP I do.
Roach drops are, from my experience, not worth it. They take up too much space in the overlord and are too much of a supply investment. They don't deal damage fast enough and cant chase after probes if they move away. They don't snipe buildings out in low numbers either. Hydralisks kill probes off faster than Roaches, so in a drop situation, I'm inclined to prefer them over roaches.
Zergling drops are the most versatile, considering you only lock away 4 supply per overlord. They are also surprisingly good at ravaging buildings and probes. One overlord filled with them can already cause quite a headache in a mineral line, but is easily thwarted by a warp in of zealots. Two overlords can take out a warp in of zealots in the midgame and continue to ravage the main afterwards. Three overlords can hold enough zerglings to surround a nexus, which falls very rapidly if you managed to sneak in melee upgrades as well. My general technique of making zergling drops work is either as a counter attack ( dropping when he is moving out to divide his attention across the map rather than on just one major battle ) and posturing to make a major attack on his exterior base, third or fourth, and scare him into making the warp ins there. That way your zerglings can roam free if the protoss didn't build cannons in the mineral line of his main.
Baneling drops are good, but only as probeline harassment. They rely a lot more on luck that the protoss isn't looking at the minimap and isn't moving his probes. It's good for terrorizing him into pulling probes, but I find that it isn't that reliable unless you make the protoss' head spin from action all over the map.
Infestors get used in harassment in the lategame in pro play. You can see many a game on Metropolis in pro play where they nydus across the map and just paint an expansion with IT eggs.
If you want to look for drop play in zerg, I suggest watching TLO, Sheth and Vortix.
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