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On August 21 2012 11:52 Zergrusher wrote: so it seems like i cannot start a strategy thread,
but anyways to my fellow zergs I have a question.
Do you have any valid reason/excuse to not get your hive tech morphing when your infestation pit finishes?
150 gas = 1 more infestor. When Terran's knocking at your front door (with a pretty all-in push, if it's hitting right when infestors pop), you want that extra fungal. While I see your point, and believe it, typically once your infestation pit finishes you want to bank as much gas as possible to get a big swell of infestors. I like to go up to 6-8, start my hive, then add more if he's being aggressive (and is a Terran ever not aggressive?) It's really not a big deal. Getting a really fast hive will hurt your eco if you try to support it, getting a really fast hive without setting up a transition is even worse. Just my thoughts!
Well you can simply get your hive to get your +3's and Adrenal glands and your tier 3 tech structure( Ultra cavern or Greater spire (this is 3 base eco mind you) and still be able to make units.
Once your on 4 or more bases( plenty of gas income) THEN you start getting your tier 3 units since you will have the gas income for it.
(Remember back in BW zergs teched due to the gas income and number of bases?)
but yeah All I am saying is.... if you have the chance to get your hive... then get it. No excuses not to morph it.
Hive tech without a good infestor count is trash. You can't win in the endgame without infestors, and you may not make it through the midgame without them, that's why it's standard, and also why it's strong, because unlike muta or hydra, infestors last and last. Often the difference between a win and a loss in any matchup is retaining infestors, energy often wins every fight after the first (assuming you reinforce and remax well).
On August 21 2012 14:08 Zergrusher wrote:
well Think about getting your hive like how terran gets the armory and protoss get the Twilight counsel.
There's nearly an order of magnitude difference. Armory + next upgrades for bio and twilight + blink AND charge is what, 600/600? And Hive + GS/ultra cavern + 4ultra / 6 BL is more than 1k/1k, and relatively useless compared to the upgrades (low infestor count vs benefit to units already on field).
I get it, Hive tech wins games, why not get it faster. The problem is that it's something your opponent is watching for, and when he sees the Hive he's just going to smash you because that timing window, where you normally have spines and infestors to delay, is now a giant archway. It's like fast teching to DTs, not just twilight council. You better make something happen with those quick BLs, but wait--DTs before detection rock by themselves, BLs before vikings/mothership are fragile enough to die to marines and stalkers. Which, conveniently, are often rather abundant.
Seriously, zergs already get hive ASAP. But right after the infestation pit pops is just cripplingly early, in my mind. I need STUFF at that point, not hive tech units ~4 minutes from now (100s hive, 100s GS, 34s BL morph from ready-built corruptors = 234s; 100s hive, 65s ultra cavern, 55s ultras = 280s). I already invest into infestation pit and pathogen glands, I feel like I really need a quick midgame tech swell (i.e. batch of infestors) or I get run over, even with roach-ling or 1-1 lings.
EDIT: minor parenthetical added.
What does the armory/twilight counsel/hive do?
1) unlocks higher tech/units 2) next level of upgrades 3)unlocks unit specific upgrades 4) new structures
also might i remind you how much money and gas you can save/put into units and tech if you didn't go infestors/mutas.. actually it seems like zerg tier 3 units don't even do anything its mostly the infestor that is the tier 3 unit because it kills all the things with fungul.
Also what I am saying is that the view point on hive must change. You can always get your hive, and you can USE IT to get your level 3's and adrenal glands and your tier 3 structure. then get your tier 3 units once you have a better gas/base count/income.
Or because you didn't invest in mutas or infestors your tier 3 units would be out sooner because of your saved gas.
Maybe because sc2 is young and people haven't really figured things out.. and most players are trapped in the "mold" of the metagames, people haven't thought of things
and i want you to notice what you just said(in your reply)...... all that money is going into infestors.... not tier 3 units OR a bigger and more upgraded army.
You don't hear what I'm saying. You NEED infestors, and just the 150 gas spent on hive can be a big difference.
Your comparison of hive to armory and twilight still doesn't calculate the relative cost. If you get it for adrenal, fine, that's a fairer comparison, but in my opinion, your sweeping generalizations are useless.
You can't skimp on infestor or muta. Good lord, everyone is telling you this, but you still keep claiming that fast Hive is fine because you can somehow not get infestors and use that to fund tier 3. That makes no sense because you die before then without infestors, then you die at tier 3 because you have no infestor support. I can't make this any more clear.
I don't even think you understand what you're saying, you say in the same post that infestors are the key to tier 3 dominance AND that everyone overspends on them and should just skip them.
I'm going to ignore you, there are people who actually want help whose posts are getting lost in the incessant noise.
On August 21 2012 22:40 tehcaekftw wrote: I need a non-cheesy ZvZ build that is decently viable. Im completely lost in ZvZ, i just end up either getting owned by mass speedlings early on off of two bases, or something like mass roach infestor, or even early mutas.
Also, how should i scout for early (bout 8 min) mutas? I guess a lair will take too long, so just roll in overlord?
You need to have an overlords spotting the 2 gas geysers at the natural of the zerg. Its just like scouting a protoss who forge fast expanded
They aren't taken by 44ish supply = third base or some type of aggression They are taken by 44ish supply = 2 base lair tech (usually mutas)
2 base tech generally grabs a ton of spines at the front of the natural, so 3+ spines should be a giant red flag for you to start overlord scouting. This is in addition to the gases.
Ok, help. http://drop.sc/242031 This happens, what the fuck do I do? I proceeded to lose to 4gate +1 zealot pressure, but honestly. I literally pulled drones the instant he lays down the pylon, yet I can't save the hatch. I forgot to cancel, but that didn't lose me the game. Is there any way to defend cheese like this? I wanted to do a 1base all-in, but those are too predictable and my gas would've been too late.
I don't actually know what to do during cannon rushes. I couldn't get any surface area on the cannons because of the map...
On August 22 2012 09:42 Mavvie wrote: Ok, help. http://drop.sc/242031 This happens, what the fuck do I do? I proceeded to lose to 4gate +1 zealot pressure, but honestly. I literally pulled drones the instant he lays down the pylon, yet I can't save the hatch. I forgot to cancel, but that didn't lose me the game. Is there any way to defend cheese like this? I wanted to do a 1base all-in, but those are too predictable and my gas would've been too late.
I don't actually know what to do during cannon rushes. I couldn't get any surface area on the cannons because of the map...
Basically what I saw here in the game was just really bad scouting. You have to learn as zerg to be more paranoid than anyone on drugs could ever hope to be. If their worker disappears from vision for even a second, go look and see wtf he's up to. The fact you saw the probe pop in and then go back down without showing itself again should've alerted you to what he was doing earlier than you reacted. He really invested a lot into that push. If you wanted to when you see someone doing that much of an all-in, just take your gasses and bane/bust his ass. The other thing to do is cancel that expo and just take a third. This will bypass his security altogether and allow you to continue with a very weird setup, but also extremely ahead economically. Its just up to you to not touch that cannon'd up area until you have sufficient roach/ling to do so and not lose an expo to pressure.
My overlord scouted an early hatchery and I assumed it meant a hatch first opening (15 hatch). Looking at the replay I see it was actually 15 pool 15 gas 17 hatch, which I've never heard of before.
I set up my natural to defend against speedling/baneling since that's what I die to the most, with a wall, spine, and queen.
At 8:47 my overlord at the north tower saw lings moving on the map. I didn't bother looking back when I see more movement a few seconds later, assuming it's the same lings. Even if I had spotted the roaches, I don't think reactive spines would have finished in time.
I'd welcome any suggestions on how I could have scouted or otherwise prepared for this attack. Since he built his warren after queens were out, but before I had an overseer, I don't think there's any way I could have scouted the warren. I did forget to check the geysers at his natural, but I wouldn't have expected them to be taken that early in the game anyway unless he were going for super fast lair tech (which I usually rely on an overseer for spotting).
Unrelated general ZvZ question: when I open pool first (14 gas 14 pool 14 hatch) and my opponent opens hatch first (15 hatch), is there any way to come back from that or is it just a build order loss due to the larva advantage? Should I be opening hatch first every game?
... I wanted to point out that there is a player in StarCraft II known as Zergrusher. ...So want I would like to know is; do you all think that being as it is, zergrusher is a player who barely plays league matches, lacks the ability to 1v1 and also lacks the ability to distinguish good micro and playing styles from pure imbalance, do you all think that he has the right to tell us and Blizzard what needs to be fixed and what doesn't need to be fixed? I hope that Blizzard does not delete this message because I am simply asking in order to prove a point- Should a player with almost zero credibility in the StarCraft II competitive gaming environment be able to tell us what the definitions of balance and imbalance are? I see the posts people make, I see the comments and i know that all of you laugh at the absurdity that is pronounced when the name "Zergrusher" is commenting on the forums but really what do you think he wants out of this? I personally think that he just wants to create a game that favors in the such a way to where he almost never loses; while you discuss this in the comment section below I also think that there should be another thing: you all need to find zergrusher and make him 1v1 like I have been trying to do, I think that if he wants to talk balance than he should atleast experience it! Thank you and I bid you all a farewell.
lol. a deleted thread on bnet forums (cache google is cool). this guy seems to be an infamous troll. or gold. i guess that probably means the pros look down at us and laugh just the same we laugh at this guy though.
@Belial basically I wouldn't take anyone who whines seriously about imbalance with more than a grain of salt. 1400+ point masters, GMs and above might get frustrated with some things but they suck it up and find a way around them. Only lowbies and people in the completely wrong mindset preach the kind of crap you see in the various "balance" threads.
@tarpman
Ok I've seen the replay and here's my notes. I'm just mid-high masters but I think I see your problem.
First off when your overlord first gets to the natural if the hatch doesn't have between 500-700hp on it, its not a hatch-first. A 15 pool and a 15 hatch differ by how far along the nat is by the time you reach it by about 400-600hp depending on how optimized they were in their mining.
-Spine at 5:00-5:30. You really need one of these. You opened pool-first and then felt the need to play defensively. The only time you do that is when you think they went an earlier pool than you and you can do that just by comparing natural hatch progress.
-You tried to take your third without seeing him try to take his. If you do not see a move-out from 2 base, check his gasses. If he has a lot, expect 2 base muta expand. If you see none, expect ling/roach/bane to be what you face. The attack itself did not move out until just before 9 minutes and this is pretty normal considering how many lings he made in the beginning. Honestly some defensive bane play would put you ahead economically instead of trying to match lings with lings. However taking your third like that totally blindly is just asking "come kill me" because mathematically he'll just have more stuff than you will at that point.
^ It's really outdated. That said, the early game stuff is fine if you are lower level. And the rest of the guide (midgame, lategame) is really just fine if you are low level, 'old' strategies aren't really bad at lower level play, since newer strats are more about macro. But i'd say all the stuff about third timings, how to play the midgame and lategame, is all pretty outdated and not too useful. I don't think it really says anything 'correct' about current zvz into midgame or lategame.
These days the openings in zvz tend to be: 2 base roach/infestor into third (im not even sure if this is a viable build, but i some pros do it, i dont think there's a concensus on how midgame zvz is really supposed to be played) 2 base muta into third when spire is being made about into standard roach/infestor/hydra ~50 third base into standard roach play (max out on roach/hydra, then add infestors, unless opponent went mutas in which case infestors first then hydras) 2 base ling/infestor (a whole weird style, seems to be fading out in pro play or maybe just a coincidence that the gomtv games havent had much of this recently, blade55555 wrote a guide on ling/infestor, search it, its good).
You don't see many zvz guides because the metagame evolves so much. Even early game zvz has evolved drastically, with pool/hatch being a popular build these days as well as a third queen, earlier bane nest and spine to make sure no ling/bane wars.
^I am most interested in the -50 third base style, simply because 3base zerg is just so powerful and it's easier to harass in longer games. that being said after I get my third base down do I immediatly start gas in the other 3 extractors and tech while spending my mins on lings to defend? Or is that the wrong idea and I should be doing a little more tech before planting the third (eg. making the roach warren and a second gas so you can get roaches a bit earlier)?
I'm actually curious about general ZvZ styles too. I either go 2base mutas -> double evo roaches off 3+ bases, or I do a defensive baneling expand, adding spine/ling to deal with roach aggression. The baneling expand is off 1 gas, the mutas are off 4.
Is it actually safe to take a third off of 1 gas banelings with a few lings? I love to do this style and go into double evo roach/infestor (once I actually lose to a 2/2 roach/hydra timing I'll go hydras first ;P ), and either end the game with roach/infestor or add in hive for 3/3 and ultras (ultras rule in zvz)
Honestly I have huge success with both these styles and have a huge winrate in ZvZ, with the exceptions of a few all-ins. I'd like to refine it to do even better in ZvZ. Btw Belial, going bane nest first if they go gas before hatch has helped a ton. Thanks!
^I am most interested in the -50 third base style, simply because 3base zerg is just so powerful and it's easier to harass in longer games. that being said after I get my third base down do I immediatly start gas in the other 3 extractors and tech while spending my mins on lings to defend? Or is that the wrong idea and I should be doing a little more tech before planting the third (eg. making the roach warren and a second gas so you can get roaches a bit earlier)?
Nerchio is the most recent example I've seen someone do this sort of play, in his games recently in that tournament where it was like 3 zergs and mvp.
take 2nd gas when taking evo, so like 40-50, add a third gas shortly afterwards, probably get 4th gas when starting lair, which is like 55, shortly after takign third. just play with it, you'll figure out gas timings with enough games.
With 4+ banelings and reactive lings if the opponent moves out with anything, you should be able to secure your third. it can get hairy but having your third queen walked down to your third while it's still morphing can help.
hmm if you go mutas, i think you should probably go infestors before hydras. Since the opponent got infestors out asap because of the mutas, and well your mutas prevent any sort of roach/hydra timing (if he gets hydras instead of infestors, you just get speedbanes and ling/bane/muta will clean up the roach/hydra army, even with slowbanes used to flank, or just a ton of roaches if you were able to take your third first). hydras are first if both of you go roach based play right off the bat, like fast third roach play. if the opponent goes like 2 base lair roach/infestor im not really sure if you should go hydras or infestors first, you could probably make both work just fine.
Can you defend 2base (especially with macro hatch) roach/speedroach all ins with reactive lings and no spines? Also, I assume roach warren after third base goes down right?
Thanks belial, the tournament youre referring to is the recent IEM right? And also, would you say the focus of this style is to drone like the other matchups, switching from drone to unit production when you see units moving out at all periods before you get your core army up? tyty for the help
Can you defend 2base (especially with macro hatch) roach/speedroach all ins with reactive lings and no spines? Also, I assume roach warren after third base goes down right?
If it's a plain hatchtech roach/ling all-in, no. You shouldn't take your third when your opponent clearly has no drones at his third, no extra gases taken at his nat (ie he clearly isn't going 2 base lair like mutas or infestors), or isn't taking a third. roach/ling hatch tech all-in is like a 4 gate, you dont take a third against a 4 gating toss either. You gotta make sure they are droning up their nat (drone pairing at the natural, clearly has a similar drone count that you have). If he has roaches made before ~50 supply, that's a clear indication of a roach/ling all-in as well, so it should be pretty obvious if he's doing such an all-in.
If he's going 2 base lair mass speedroaches (a strategy that doesn't really make sense... but, well, can happen), you should be able to defend just fine with a fast third build. You just pump roaches, and don't drone your third at all. You shouldn't really be droning your third until you know exactly what the opponent is doing anyways, and should probably get a handful of roaches at 60+ anyways (or aim to if you have no clue what the opponent is doing). Defensive slow roaches on creep on ramps or sandwhiching the opponent should hold pretty easily (ie he goes for your nat, but you have a bunch of roaches there so he cant go up, so he goes for your third, but you have been pumping roaches so you probably have some there, and then the ones from the nat come around, dont be afraid to mass lings if your minerals are much higher than your gas).
Yea, roach warren after third. I've always done it as ~40 evo and 2nd gas, +1, ~50+ third and roach warren, but I saw nerchio go for his evo, 2nd gas, and third ~50+. Whatever though, it's around those timings. Lair is started shortly after, about 55-60.
Thanks belial, the tournament youre referring to is the recent IEM right? And also, would you say the focus of this style is to drone like the other matchups, switching from drone to unit production when you see units moving out at all periods before you get your core army up? tyty for the help
yea iem. yea sure. i mean there's no reason not to take a third before lair. im really not sure why some pro zergs go 2 base lair roach/infestor, maybe they think it's safer against mutas or something. i dont know, i saw drg vs some bw guy where the bw guy went 2 base roach/infestor and then massed roaches and kill DRG (to be fair, drg massed spores, and made like 13 drones when the opponent pushed, and still was very close to holding, with 10 more seconds so all his roaches were together, or just not making 13 drones after already having 50... he would have held easily).
ZvZ is just weird, it's still really unstable, so I don't know. This fast third style was seemingly becoming standard, but nowadays so many people go 2 base lair muta that it's kind of hard to understand what exactly constitutes standard play or what is the safest thing to do.
I'm trying to switch from terran to zerg, as i would have done it with Hots anyway. I've tried 2 different roach builds with fast expansion so far, but i have the feeling that speedling openers would fit my gamestyle better. I feel much more safe if i have mapcontrol as a zerg. So, what i'm looking for exactly is; one speedling opener with 15~ hatch, viable for every match up, which helps me to gain mapcontrol. Also i don't know the best placements for overlord on each map, so i guess it isn't wrong to fly to the opponents gases and cover my bases airspace with them.
Edit: Oh, and what is a good method to remind building overlords? Like one Overlord with (almost) every Larva inject or somthing!
On August 22 2012 12:31 Belial88 wrote: ^ It's really outdated. That said, the early game stuff is fine if you are lower level. And the rest of the guide (midgame, lategame) is really just fine if you are low level, 'old' strategies aren't really bad at lower level play, since newer strats are more about macro. But i'd say all the stuff about third timings, how to play the midgame and lategame, is all pretty outdated and not too useful. I don't think it really says anything 'correct' about current zvz into midgame or lategame.
These days the openings in zvz tend to be: 2 base roach/infestor into third (im not even sure if this is a viable build, but i some pros do it, i dont think there's a concensus on how midgame zvz is really supposed to be played) 2 base muta into third when spire is being made about into standard roach/infestor/hydra ~50 third base into standard roach play (max out on roach/hydra, then add infestors, unless opponent went mutas in which case infestors first then hydras) 2 base ling/infestor (a whole weird style, seems to be fading out in pro play or maybe just a coincidence that the gomtv games havent had much of this recently, blade55555 wrote a guide on ling/infestor, search it, its good).
You don't see many zvz guides because the metagame evolves so much. Even early game zvz has evolved drastically, with pool/hatch being a popular build these days as well as a third queen, earlier bane nest and spine to make sure no ling/bane wars.
As the creator of that guide, aside from the early game and maybe the drone tips, everything is outdated ( which is to be expected since it is like a year old ). The maps have changed so much for the better that going for a 14/14 into 21 expand isn't really all that useful anymore because 14/14 isn't the standard build anymore. You're much better off relying on going for a hatch first instead. That and ZvZ relying much more on getting the third up rather than getting up the natural. It's a completely different playstyle and goal.
If you do want a more recent guide on ZvZ, you can read the muta-guide I made which is on the same site. Either that or reading blade5555s guide will get you a much more up to date example.
The game in question is less than 7 minutes long, and you only need to watch it from 2:45 to 4:15 for the part of the game I'm looking at.
At 2:45 or so in the video, Gumiho throws down a third CC in his natural, where it can't be seen. He then goes into double engineering bay. As the casters are pointing out that Shine could go for a bust, he throws down a Roach Warren at 4:10-4:15 in the video.
What I don't see is: How did he know he could do that? I didn't see him scout the CC or e-bay at all, and if Terran had a bunch of marines or a tech unit or two he wouldn't show them to scouting lings anyway. So, what tipped Shine off that Gumiho was being so greedy that he could bust him?
The game in question is less than 7 minutes long, and you only need to watch it from 2:45 to 4:15 for the part of the game I'm looking at.
At 2:45 or so in the video, Gumiho throws down a third CC in his natural, where it can't be seen. He then goes into double engineering bay. As the casters are pointing out that Shine could go for a bust, he throws down a Roach Warren at 4:10-4:15 in the video.
What I don't see is: How did he know he could do that? I didn't see him scout the CC or e-bay at all, and if Terran had a bunch of marines or a tech unit or two he wouldn't show them to scouting lings anyway. So, what tipped Shine off that Gumiho was being so greedy that he could bust him?
Shine didn't know there would be a 3rd CC. He might have suspected one, but wouldn't have known for sure. He took the double gas the second that the scouting scv was chased away. That suggests that it was a pre-planned attack. It just so happened, that Gumiho was super greedy and it made Shine look like a genius.
The game in question is less than 7 minutes long, and you only need to watch it from 2:45 to 4:15 for the part of the game I'm looking at.
At 2:45 or so in the video, Gumiho throws down a third CC in his natural, where it can't be seen. He then goes into double engineering bay. As the casters are pointing out that Shine could go for a bust, he throws down a Roach Warren at 4:10-4:15 in the video.
What I don't see is: How did he know he could do that? I didn't see him scout the CC or e-bay at all, and if Terran had a bunch of marines or a tech unit or two he wouldn't show them to scouting lings anyway. So, what tipped Shine off that Gumiho was being so greedy that he could bust him?
First off he did an extractor trick to keep his drone scout alive for longer. The scouting advantage that this gives is that you can see the amount of marines that are trickling out because he can't actually kill a morphing extractor until he has 3 marines. You can easily tell if he gets a techlab first or a reactor by knowing the timings at which the marines trickle out.
Second off, he saw the gas straight after he moved his drone away. This is really important for the next step.
Later on, right before he started the roach warren, he sent a zergling up to his ramp and saw 6 marines. This means that whatever he is doing with the gas, isn't fast hellion. This means that either he is going for a barracks style or fast e-bays, so he throws down the roach warren immediately. Any hellion aggression from a 1 rax - 1 fact play that is supposed to come out should have already been on the map or have out atleast 2 hellions.
EPT
