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I need a non-cheesy ZvZ build that is decently viable. Im completely lost in ZvZ, i just end up either getting owned by mass speedlings early on off of two bases, or something like mass roach infestor, or even early mutas.
Also, how should i scout for early (bout 8 min) mutas? I guess a lair will take too long, so just roll in overlord?
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On August 21 2012 22:40 tehcaekftw wrote:
I need a non-cheesy ZvZ build that is decently viable. Im completely lost in ZvZ, i just end up either getting owned by mass speedlings early on off of two bases, or something like mass roach infestor, or even early mutas.
Also, how should i scout for early (bout 8 min) mutas? I guess a lair will take too long, so just roll in overlord?
You need to have an overlords spotting the 2 gas geysers at the natural of the zerg. Its just like scouting a protoss who forge fast expanded
They aren't taken by 44ish supply = third base or some type of aggression
They are taken by 44ish supply = 2 base lair tech (usually mutas)
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On August 21 2012 23:19 Moosegills wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 22:40 tehcaekftw wrote:
I need a non-cheesy ZvZ build that is decently viable. Im completely lost in ZvZ, i just end up either getting owned by mass speedlings early on off of two bases, or something like mass roach infestor, or even early mutas.
Also, how should i scout for early (bout 8 min) mutas? I guess a lair will take too long, so just roll in overlord? You need to have an overlords spotting the 2 gas geysers at the natural of the zerg. Its just like scouting a protoss who forge fast expanded They aren't taken by 44ish supply = third base or some type of aggression They are taken by 44ish supply = 2 base lair tech (usually mutas)
What about my lair timings? I usually get it around 7:30 or so, but i really have no idea if im doing it correct. My timing in vP and vT both have roughly that aswell, so...
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On August 22 2012 00:12 tehcaekftw wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 23:19 Moosegills wrote:On August 21 2012 22:40 tehcaekftw wrote:
I need a non-cheesy ZvZ build that is decently viable. Im completely lost in ZvZ, i just end up either getting owned by mass speedlings early on off of two bases, or something like mass roach infestor, or even early mutas.
Also, how should i scout for early (bout 8 min) mutas? I guess a lair will take too long, so just roll in overlord? You need to have an overlords spotting the 2 gas geysers at the natural of the zerg. Its just like scouting a protoss who forge fast expanded They aren't taken by 44ish supply = third base or some type of aggression They are taken by 44ish supply = 2 base lair tech (usually mutas) What about my lair timings? I usually get it around 7:30 or so, but i really have no idea if im doing it correct. My timing in vP and vT both have roughly that aswell, so...
The problem with giving you set timings like that in zvz is just that. There's really no "set timings" in zvz. If the other guy decides to super-ultra-all-in off 2 base mass ling/bane, you have literally no choice but to defend until you're in a comfortable lead and then continue up the tech tree or he will just flat-out kill you.
If you see him stopping streaming ling/bane, just start the lair up and take those gasses/third base. You should have visual triggers from scouting him constantly otherwise you'll have trouble keeping track of what he's switching to next.
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On August 22 2012 00:12 tehcaekftw wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 23:19 Moosegills wrote:On August 21 2012 22:40 tehcaekftw wrote:
I need a non-cheesy ZvZ build that is decently viable. Im completely lost in ZvZ, i just end up either getting owned by mass speedlings early on off of two bases, or something like mass roach infestor, or even early mutas.
Also, how should i scout for early (bout 8 min) mutas? I guess a lair will take too long, so just roll in overlord? You need to have an overlords spotting the 2 gas geysers at the natural of the zerg. Its just like scouting a protoss who forge fast expanded They aren't taken by 44ish supply = third base or some type of aggression They are taken by 44ish supply = 2 base lair tech (usually mutas) What about my lair timings? I usually get it around 7:30 or so, but i really have no idea if im doing it correct. My timing in vP and vT both have roughly that aswell, so...
It ZvZ it depends so much on what aggression has gone down.
Assuming no aggression, if you want to go 2 base muta yourself you lair should be between 6:00 and 6:30.
If you want to do a faster third into roach style 7:15-7:45 is a decent timing for it.
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On August 21 2012 16:08 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 13:45 Zergrusher wrote:On August 21 2012 13:37 Mavvie wrote:On August 21 2012 11:52 Zergrusher wrote:
so it seems like i cannot start a strategy thread,
but anyways to my fellow zergs I have a question.
Do you have any valid reason/excuse to not get your hive tech morphing when your infestation pit finishes? 150 gas = 1 more infestor. When Terran's knocking at your front door (with a pretty all-in push, if it's hitting right when infestors pop), you want that extra fungal. While I see your point, and believe it, typically once your infestation pit finishes you want to bank as much gas as possible to get a big swell of infestors. I like to go up to 6-8, start my hive, then add more if he's being aggressive (and is a Terran ever not aggressive?) It's really not a big deal. Getting a really fast hive will hurt your eco if you try to support it, getting a really fast hive without setting up a transition is even worse. Just my thoughts! Well you can simply get your hive to get your +3's and Adrenal glands and your tier 3 tech structure( Ultra cavern or Greater spire (this is 3 base eco mind you) and still be able to make units. Once your on 4 or more bases( plenty of gas income) THEN you start getting your tier 3 units since you will have the gas income for it. (Remember back in BW zergs teched due to the gas income and number of bases?) but yeah All I am saying is.... if you have the chance to get your hive... then get it. No excuses not to morph it. Hive tech without a good infestor count is trash. You can't win in the endgame without infestors, and you may not make it through the midgame without them, that's why it's standard, and also why it's strong, because unlike muta or hydra, infestors last and last. Often the difference between a win and a loss in any matchup is retaining infestors, energy often wins every fight after the first (assuming you reinforce and remax well). Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 14:08 Zergrusher wrote:
well Think about getting your hive like how terran gets the armory and protoss get the Twilight counsel.
There's nearly an order of magnitude difference. Armory + next upgrades for bio and twilight + blink AND charge is what, 600/600? And Hive + GS/ultra cavern + 4ultra / 6 BL is more than 1k/1k, and relatively useless compared to the upgrades (low infestor count vs benefit to units already on field). I get it, Hive tech wins games, why not get it faster. The problem is that it's something your opponent is watching for, and when he sees the Hive he's just going to smash you because that timing window, where you normally have spines and infestors to delay, is now a giant archway. It's like fast teching to DTs, not just twilight council. You better make something happen with those quick BLs, but wait--DTs before detection rock by themselves, BLs before vikings/mothership are fragile enough to die to marines and stalkers. Which, conveniently, are often rather abundant. Seriously, zergs already get hive ASAP. But right after the infestation pit pops is just cripplingly early, in my mind. I need STUFF at that point, not hive tech units ~4 minutes from now (100s hive, 100s GS, 34s BL morph from ready-built corruptors = 234s; 100s hive, 65s ultra cavern, 55s ultras = 280s). I already invest into infestation pit and pathogen glands, I feel like I really need a quick midgame tech swell (i.e. batch of infestors) or I get run over, even with roach-ling or 1-1 lings. EDIT: minor parenthetical added.
What does the armory/twilight counsel/hive do?
1) unlocks higher tech/units
2) next level of upgrades
3)unlocks unit specific upgrades
4) new structures
also might i remind you how much money and gas you can save/put into units and tech if you didn't go infestors/mutas..
actually it seems like zerg tier 3 units don't even do anything its mostly the infestor that is the tier 3 unit because it kills all the things with fungul.
Also what I am saying is that the view point on hive must change.
You can always get your hive, and you can USE IT to get your level 3's and adrenal glands and your tier 3 structure.
then get your tier 3 units once you have a better gas/base count/income.
Or because you didn't invest in mutas or infestors your tier 3 units would be out sooner because of your saved gas.
Maybe because sc2 is young and people haven't really figured things out.. and most players are trapped in the "mold" of the metagames, people haven't thought of things
and i want you to notice what you just said(in your reply)...... all that money is going into infestors.... not tier 3 units OR a bigger and more upgraded army.
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On August 22 2012 02:03 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 16:08 6xFPCs wrote:On August 21 2012 13:45 Zergrusher wrote:On August 21 2012 13:37 Mavvie wrote:On August 21 2012 11:52 Zergrusher wrote:
so it seems like i cannot start a strategy thread,
but anyways to my fellow zergs I have a question.
Do you have any valid reason/excuse to not get your hive tech morphing when your infestation pit finishes? 150 gas = 1 more infestor. When Terran's knocking at your front door (with a pretty all-in push, if it's hitting right when infestors pop), you want that extra fungal. While I see your point, and believe it, typically once your infestation pit finishes you want to bank as much gas as possible to get a big swell of infestors. I like to go up to 6-8, start my hive, then add more if he's being aggressive (and is a Terran ever not aggressive?) It's really not a big deal. Getting a really fast hive will hurt your eco if you try to support it, getting a really fast hive without setting up a transition is even worse. Just my thoughts! Well you can simply get your hive to get your +3's and Adrenal glands and your tier 3 tech structure( Ultra cavern or Greater spire (this is 3 base eco mind you) and still be able to make units. Once your on 4 or more bases( plenty of gas income) THEN you start getting your tier 3 units since you will have the gas income for it. (Remember back in BW zergs teched due to the gas income and number of bases?) but yeah All I am saying is.... if you have the chance to get your hive... then get it. No excuses not to morph it. Hive tech without a good infestor count is trash. You can't win in the endgame without infestors, and you may not make it through the midgame without them, that's why it's standard, and also why it's strong, because unlike muta or hydra, infestors last and last. Often the difference between a win and a loss in any matchup is retaining infestors, energy often wins every fight after the first (assuming you reinforce and remax well). On August 21 2012 14:08 Zergrusher wrote:
well Think about getting your hive like how terran gets the armory and protoss get the Twilight counsel.
There's nearly an order of magnitude difference. Armory + next upgrades for bio and twilight + blink AND charge is what, 600/600? And Hive + GS/ultra cavern + 4ultra / 6 BL is more than 1k/1k, and relatively useless compared to the upgrades (low infestor count vs benefit to units already on field). I get it, Hive tech wins games, why not get it faster. The problem is that it's something your opponent is watching for, and when he sees the Hive he's just going to smash you because that timing window, where you normally have spines and infestors to delay, is now a giant archway. It's like fast teching to DTs, not just twilight council. You better make something happen with those quick BLs, but wait--DTs before detection rock by themselves, BLs before vikings/mothership are fragile enough to die to marines and stalkers. Which, conveniently, are often rather abundant. Seriously, zergs already get hive ASAP. But right after the infestation pit pops is just cripplingly early, in my mind. I need STUFF at that point, not hive tech units ~4 minutes from now (100s hive, 100s GS, 34s BL morph from ready-built corruptors = 234s; 100s hive, 65s ultra cavern, 55s ultras = 280s). I already invest into infestation pit and pathogen glands, I feel like I really need a quick midgame tech swell (i.e. batch of infestors) or I get run over, even with roach-ling or 1-1 lings. EDIT: minor parenthetical added. What does the armory/twilight counsel/hive do? 1) unlocks higher tech/units 2) next level of upgrades 3)unlocks unit specific upgrades 4) new structures also might i remind you how much money and gas you can save/put into units and tech if you didn't go infestors/mutas.. actually it seems like zerg tier 3 units don't even do anything its mostly the infestor that is the tier 3 unit because it kills all the things with fungul. Also what I am saying is that the view point on hive must change. You can always get your hive, and you can USE IT to get your level 3's and adrenal glands and your tier 3 structure. then get your tier 3 units once you have a better gas/base count/income. Or because you didn't invest in mutas or infestors your tier 3 units would be out sooner because of your saved gas. Maybe because sc2 is young and people haven't really figured things out.. and most players are trapped in the "mold" of the metagames, people haven't thought of things and i want you to notice what you just said(in your reply)...... all that money is going into infestors.... not tier 3 units OR a bigger and more upgraded army.
....so you're saying to skip infestors to get a faster 3/3 hatch tech army? 3/3 hatch tech loses to inferiorly-upgraded higher tech armies of the other races. Do immortals care if your roaches have +3 armor? Do colossi care if your units have +3 ranged instead of +2? Not really. I'm sure that everyone agrees that infestors/mutas are scarier than slightly better-upgraded hatch tech. I understand your point, but I disagree with skipping infestors. +3 is no big deal compared to having a bunch of infestors/mutas, it's not because we're "trapped in the metagame", it's because it's better than doing like a hive rush/all-in 
Broodlords die to stalkers/marines if there's no infestor/spine, 3/3 roaches die to stimmed MMM, 3/3 banes still die to tanks in one shot.....
Infestors are necessary
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On August 22 2012 02:21 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 02:03 Zergrusher wrote:On August 21 2012 16:08 6xFPCs wrote:On August 21 2012 13:45 Zergrusher wrote:On August 21 2012 13:37 Mavvie wrote:On August 21 2012 11:52 Zergrusher wrote:
so it seems like i cannot start a strategy thread,
but anyways to my fellow zergs I have a question.
Do you have any valid reason/excuse to not get your hive tech morphing when your infestation pit finishes? 150 gas = 1 more infestor. When Terran's knocking at your front door (with a pretty all-in push, if it's hitting right when infestors pop), you want that extra fungal. While I see your point, and believe it, typically once your infestation pit finishes you want to bank as much gas as possible to get a big swell of infestors. I like to go up to 6-8, start my hive, then add more if he's being aggressive (and is a Terran ever not aggressive?) It's really not a big deal. Getting a really fast hive will hurt your eco if you try to support it, getting a really fast hive without setting up a transition is even worse. Just my thoughts! Well you can simply get your hive to get your +3's and Adrenal glands and your tier 3 tech structure( Ultra cavern or Greater spire (this is 3 base eco mind you) and still be able to make units. Once your on 4 or more bases( plenty of gas income) THEN you start getting your tier 3 units since you will have the gas income for it. (Remember back in BW zergs teched due to the gas income and number of bases?) but yeah All I am saying is.... if you have the chance to get your hive... then get it. No excuses not to morph it. Hive tech without a good infestor count is trash. You can't win in the endgame without infestors, and you may not make it through the midgame without them, that's why it's standard, and also why it's strong, because unlike muta or hydra, infestors last and last. Often the difference between a win and a loss in any matchup is retaining infestors, energy often wins every fight after the first (assuming you reinforce and remax well). On August 21 2012 14:08 Zergrusher wrote:
well Think about getting your hive like how terran gets the armory and protoss get the Twilight counsel.
There's nearly an order of magnitude difference. Armory + next upgrades for bio and twilight + blink AND charge is what, 600/600? And Hive + GS/ultra cavern + 4ultra / 6 BL is more than 1k/1k, and relatively useless compared to the upgrades (low infestor count vs benefit to units already on field). I get it, Hive tech wins games, why not get it faster. The problem is that it's something your opponent is watching for, and when he sees the Hive he's just going to smash you because that timing window, where you normally have spines and infestors to delay, is now a giant archway. It's like fast teching to DTs, not just twilight council. You better make something happen with those quick BLs, but wait--DTs before detection rock by themselves, BLs before vikings/mothership are fragile enough to die to marines and stalkers. Which, conveniently, are often rather abundant. Seriously, zergs already get hive ASAP. But right after the infestation pit pops is just cripplingly early, in my mind. I need STUFF at that point, not hive tech units ~4 minutes from now (100s hive, 100s GS, 34s BL morph from ready-built corruptors = 234s; 100s hive, 65s ultra cavern, 55s ultras = 280s). I already invest into infestation pit and pathogen glands, I feel like I really need a quick midgame tech swell (i.e. batch of infestors) or I get run over, even with roach-ling or 1-1 lings. EDIT: minor parenthetical added. What does the armory/twilight counsel/hive do? 1) unlocks higher tech/units 2) next level of upgrades 3)unlocks unit specific upgrades 4) new structures also might i remind you how much money and gas you can save/put into units and tech if you didn't go infestors/mutas.. actually it seems like zerg tier 3 units don't even do anything its mostly the infestor that is the tier 3 unit because it kills all the things with fungul. Also what I am saying is that the view point on hive must change. You can always get your hive, and you can USE IT to get your level 3's and adrenal glands and your tier 3 structure. then get your tier 3 units once you have a better gas/base count/income. Or because you didn't invest in mutas or infestors your tier 3 units would be out sooner because of your saved gas. Maybe because sc2 is young and people haven't really figured things out.. and most players are trapped in the "mold" of the metagames, people haven't thought of things and i want you to notice what you just said(in your reply)...... all that money is going into infestors.... not tier 3 units OR a bigger and more upgraded army. ....so you're saying to skip infestors to get a faster 3/3 hatch tech army? 3/3 hatch tech loses to inferiorly-upgraded higher tech armies of the other races. Do immortals care if your roaches have +3 armor? Do colossi care if your units have +3 ranged instead of +2? Not really. I'm sure that everyone agrees that infestors/mutas are scarier than slightly better-upgraded hatch tech. I understand your point, but I disagree with skipping infestors. +3 is no big deal compared to having a bunch of infestors/mutas, it's not because we're "trapped in the metagame", it's because it's better than doing like a hive rush/all-in Broodlords die to stalkers/marines if there's no infestor/spine, 3/3 roaches die to stimmed MMM, 3/3 banes still die to tanks in one shot..... Infestors are necessary
You get your hive to not only keep up on upgrades but also to get your tier 3 units up.
Secondly I am not saying OMG RUSH TO HIVE AND GET YOUR TIER 3 UNITS AS FAST AS POSSIBLE
I am saying is that Getting your hive shouldn't be a unusual task.
Also do me a favor. in your next ZVT or ZVP.... tally up all that money you spend on infestors.
Then imagine that all into upgrades/units.
BTW Broodlords are seige units, Try to use them more like that, but you already know that right?
while ultra/bane/ling/hydra ( with a few infestors if needed) should be your heavy hitting ground combo
anyways what i am trying to say is that shure infestors are good... but wouldn't you rather destroy his deathball instead of hide behind spines all day?
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aybe because sc2 is young and people haven't really figured things out.. and most players are trapped in the "mold" of the metagames, people haven't thought of things
You make it sound like the pros don't think about this stuff, talk about this stuff, live and breath this stuff, all day long for 24/7/365, yet you know something they don't.
I hate when people talk about the metagame or how the game is currently played as standard as 'trapped' or 'stuck' or something. There is a ton of innovation that went into what the metagame is currently, by thousands of pro gamers who have done nothing but try to find roundabout ways to play the game.
You might be smarter than MVP, hell, you might, just maybe, be smarter than Nestea. And okay, I'll give it to you that you are smarter than Stephano. But you aren't smarter than all of these guys combined, who've been playing this game for money for years now. You don't think Losira hasn't thought "hm, if I get hive quicker, off 3 base, maybe I can just win then and there!".
There's a reason people mass spines in ZvP - you simply need them. Adrenal and 3/3 isn't as crucial in ZvP as it is in ZvT, it's more like broodlords are the real lynchpin. You either get them, or you don't. (i mean you dont mass spines in zvt).
Both ultras and broods need a ton of support to use. It's perfectly viable to rush hive by only making 4 infestors and starting hive as soon as infestation pit is done. But there's more than 1 way to play zvt (well, just 2, really). If you morph a quick infestation pit, hive, after making 15+ mutas, it wouldn't make much sense, seeing as you can't afford a broodlord army yet, and you couldn't get any sort of upgrade or ultras out in time anyways.
I don't really know what you are trying to suggest anyways. Yea, if the 5 infestors you got were instead ultras, you'd have like 3 ultras with zero infestor support? If you aren't saying rush your hive asap, than what are you saying? People already tend to get hive pretty quickly, especially with certain styles more than others.
and lol ultra/bane/ling/hydra. you make 2 hydras, I'll stick with 1 infestor instead.
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On August 22 2012 02:42 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +aybe because sc2 is young and people haven't really figured things out.. and most players are trapped in the "mold" of the metagames, people haven't thought of things You make it sound like the pros don't think about this stuff, talk about this stuff, live and breath this stuff, all day long for 24/7/365, yet you know something they don't. I hate when people talk about the metagame or how the game is currently played as standard as 'trapped' or 'stuck' or something. There is a ton of innovation that went into what the metagame is currently, by thousands of pro gamers who have done nothing but try to find roundabout ways to play the game. You might be smarter than MVP, hell, you might, just maybe, be smarter than Nestea. And okay, I'll give it to you that you are smarter than Stephano. But you aren't smarter than all of these guys combined, who've been playing this game for money for years now. You don't think Losira hasn't thought "hm, if I get hive quicker, off 3 base, maybe I can just win then and there!". There's a reason people mass spines in ZvP - you simply need them. Adrenal and 3/3 isn't as crucial in ZvP as it is in ZvT, it's more like broodlords are the real lynchpin. You either get them, or you don't. (i mean you dont mass spines in zvt). Both ultras and broods need a ton of support to use. It's perfectly viable to rush hive by only making 4 infestors and starting hive as soon as infestation pit is done. But there's more than 1 way to play zvt (well, just 2, really). If you morph a quick infestation pit, hive, after making 15+ mutas, it wouldn't make much sense, seeing as you can't afford a broodlord army yet, and you couldn't get any sort of upgrade or ultras out in time anyways. I don't really know what you are trying to suggest anyways. Yea, if the 5 infestors you got were instead ultras, you'd have like 3 ultras with zero infestor support? If you aren't saying rush your hive asap, than what are you saying? People already tend to get hive pretty quickly, especially with certain styles more than others. and lol ultra/bane/ling/hydra. you make 2 hydras, I'll stick with 1 infestor instead.
well it IS possible to do a infestorless style in ZVT and ZVP
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On August 22 2012 02:59 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 02:42 Belial88 wrote:aybe because sc2 is young and people haven't really figured things out.. and most players are trapped in the "mold" of the metagames, people haven't thought of things You make it sound like the pros don't think about this stuff, talk about this stuff, live and breath this stuff, all day long for 24/7/365, yet you know something they don't. I hate when people talk about the metagame or how the game is currently played as standard as 'trapped' or 'stuck' or something. There is a ton of innovation that went into what the metagame is currently, by thousands of pro gamers who have done nothing but try to find roundabout ways to play the game. You might be smarter than MVP, hell, you might, just maybe, be smarter than Nestea. And okay, I'll give it to you that you are smarter than Stephano. But you aren't smarter than all of these guys combined, who've been playing this game for money for years now. You don't think Losira hasn't thought "hm, if I get hive quicker, off 3 base, maybe I can just win then and there!". There's a reason people mass spines in ZvP - you simply need them. Adrenal and 3/3 isn't as crucial in ZvP as it is in ZvT, it's more like broodlords are the real lynchpin. You either get them, or you don't. (i mean you dont mass spines in zvt). Both ultras and broods need a ton of support to use. It's perfectly viable to rush hive by only making 4 infestors and starting hive as soon as infestation pit is done. But there's more than 1 way to play zvt (well, just 2, really). If you morph a quick infestation pit, hive, after making 15+ mutas, it wouldn't make much sense, seeing as you can't afford a broodlord army yet, and you couldn't get any sort of upgrade or ultras out in time anyways. I don't really know what you are trying to suggest anyways. Yea, if the 5 infestors you got were instead ultras, you'd have like 3 ultras with zero infestor support? If you aren't saying rush your hive asap, than what are you saying? People already tend to get hive pretty quickly, especially with certain styles more than others. and lol ultra/bane/ling/hydra. you make 2 hydras, I'll stick with 1 infestor instead. well it IS possible to do a infestorless style in ZVT and ZVP
Its possible, but why wouldn't you want to make zergs best unit(by far)?
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On August 22 2012 03:07 Moosegills wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 02:59 Zergrusher wrote:On August 22 2012 02:42 Belial88 wrote:aybe because sc2 is young and people haven't really figured things out.. and most players are trapped in the "mold" of the metagames, people haven't thought of things You make it sound like the pros don't think about this stuff, talk about this stuff, live and breath this stuff, all day long for 24/7/365, yet you know something they don't. I hate when people talk about the metagame or how the game is currently played as standard as 'trapped' or 'stuck' or something. There is a ton of innovation that went into what the metagame is currently, by thousands of pro gamers who have done nothing but try to find roundabout ways to play the game. You might be smarter than MVP, hell, you might, just maybe, be smarter than Nestea. And okay, I'll give it to you that you are smarter than Stephano. But you aren't smarter than all of these guys combined, who've been playing this game for money for years now. You don't think Losira hasn't thought "hm, if I get hive quicker, off 3 base, maybe I can just win then and there!". There's a reason people mass spines in ZvP - you simply need them. Adrenal and 3/3 isn't as crucial in ZvP as it is in ZvT, it's more like broodlords are the real lynchpin. You either get them, or you don't. (i mean you dont mass spines in zvt). Both ultras and broods need a ton of support to use. It's perfectly viable to rush hive by only making 4 infestors and starting hive as soon as infestation pit is done. But there's more than 1 way to play zvt (well, just 2, really). If you morph a quick infestation pit, hive, after making 15+ mutas, it wouldn't make much sense, seeing as you can't afford a broodlord army yet, and you couldn't get any sort of upgrade or ultras out in time anyways. I don't really know what you are trying to suggest anyways. Yea, if the 5 infestors you got were instead ultras, you'd have like 3 ultras with zero infestor support? If you aren't saying rush your hive asap, than what are you saying? People already tend to get hive pretty quickly, especially with certain styles more than others. and lol ultra/bane/ling/hydra. you make 2 hydras, I'll stick with 1 infestor instead. well it IS possible to do a infestorless style in ZVT and ZVP Its possible, but why wouldn't you want to make zergs best unit(by far)?
Because its a true test of skill
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On August 22 2012 02:59 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 02:42 Belial88 wrote:aybe because sc2 is young and people haven't really figured things out.. and most players are trapped in the "mold" of the metagames, people haven't thought of things You make it sound like the pros don't think about this stuff, talk about this stuff, live and breath this stuff, all day long for 24/7/365, yet you know something they don't. I hate when people talk about the metagame or how the game is currently played as standard as 'trapped' or 'stuck' or something. There is a ton of innovation that went into what the metagame is currently, by thousands of pro gamers who have done nothing but try to find roundabout ways to play the game. You might be smarter than MVP, hell, you might, just maybe, be smarter than Nestea. And okay, I'll give it to you that you are smarter than Stephano. But you aren't smarter than all of these guys combined, who've been playing this game for money for years now. You don't think Losira hasn't thought "hm, if I get hive quicker, off 3 base, maybe I can just win then and there!". There's a reason people mass spines in ZvP - you simply need them. Adrenal and 3/3 isn't as crucial in ZvP as it is in ZvT, it's more like broodlords are the real lynchpin. You either get them, or you don't. (i mean you dont mass spines in zvt). Both ultras and broods need a ton of support to use. It's perfectly viable to rush hive by only making 4 infestors and starting hive as soon as infestation pit is done. But there's more than 1 way to play zvt (well, just 2, really). If you morph a quick infestation pit, hive, after making 15+ mutas, it wouldn't make much sense, seeing as you can't afford a broodlord army yet, and you couldn't get any sort of upgrade or ultras out in time anyways. I don't really know what you are trying to suggest anyways. Yea, if the 5 infestors you got were instead ultras, you'd have like 3 ultras with zero infestor support? If you aren't saying rush your hive asap, than what are you saying? People already tend to get hive pretty quickly, especially with certain styles more than others. and lol ultra/bane/ling/hydra. you make 2 hydras, I'll stick with 1 infestor instead. well it IS possible to do a infestorless style in ZVT and ZVP
It is, and I do it a lot in my games. Instead relying on large groups of banelings with zergling and ultralisk support. But even I don't go for a really quick hive. You're much better off keeping your lair for a little longer while you saturate your bases.
Since you'll be relying more on defense if you want to go for an Ultra/baneling style, you won't need to rush for your hive the instant your infestation pit goes down unless you delayed your infestation pit already. You'll still have to wait for your upgrades to finish until you can get +3's and adrenal glands, while good, isn't essential in a ling-bling-infestor army.
If you're going ultralisks, you need the chitinous plating much more than you need +3. So there really is no need to get that quick hive up unless you want to get the units out that are unlocked from it immediately. This either results in people delaying their infestation pit and going insta hive, or getting an infestation pit up sooner and going hive later because you still need that economy to back up the hive tech. 3 base of full saturation if you want to go for an Ultra-bane timing attack and atleast 4 base with all gasses taken if you want to support a mass broodlord-infestor-corruptor army.
I agree with you that you can play an infestorless style.. up until a certain point in the game. But rushing hive just doesn't make sense even for a heavy ultralisk user like me.
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On August 22 2012 03:09 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 03:07 Moosegills wrote:On August 22 2012 02:59 Zergrusher wrote:On August 22 2012 02:42 Belial88 wrote:aybe because sc2 is young and people haven't really figured things out.. and most players are trapped in the "mold" of the metagames, people haven't thought of things You make it sound like the pros don't think about this stuff, talk about this stuff, live and breath this stuff, all day long for 24/7/365, yet you know something they don't. I hate when people talk about the metagame or how the game is currently played as standard as 'trapped' or 'stuck' or something. There is a ton of innovation that went into what the metagame is currently, by thousands of pro gamers who have done nothing but try to find roundabout ways to play the game. You might be smarter than MVP, hell, you might, just maybe, be smarter than Nestea. And okay, I'll give it to you that you are smarter than Stephano. But you aren't smarter than all of these guys combined, who've been playing this game for money for years now. You don't think Losira hasn't thought "hm, if I get hive quicker, off 3 base, maybe I can just win then and there!". There's a reason people mass spines in ZvP - you simply need them. Adrenal and 3/3 isn't as crucial in ZvP as it is in ZvT, it's more like broodlords are the real lynchpin. You either get them, or you don't. (i mean you dont mass spines in zvt). Both ultras and broods need a ton of support to use. It's perfectly viable to rush hive by only making 4 infestors and starting hive as soon as infestation pit is done. But there's more than 1 way to play zvt (well, just 2, really). If you morph a quick infestation pit, hive, after making 15+ mutas, it wouldn't make much sense, seeing as you can't afford a broodlord army yet, and you couldn't get any sort of upgrade or ultras out in time anyways. I don't really know what you are trying to suggest anyways. Yea, if the 5 infestors you got were instead ultras, you'd have like 3 ultras with zero infestor support? If you aren't saying rush your hive asap, than what are you saying? People already tend to get hive pretty quickly, especially with certain styles more than others. and lol ultra/bane/ling/hydra. you make 2 hydras, I'll stick with 1 infestor instead. well it IS possible to do a infestorless style in ZVT and ZVP Its possible, but why wouldn't you want to make zergs best unit(by far)? Because its a true test of skill
That doesn't even make sense. It's like saying you play with 1 hand because its a true test of skill. You either win or you lose. lol
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On August 22 2012 03:13 Moosegills wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 03:09 Zergrusher wrote:On August 22 2012 03:07 Moosegills wrote:On August 22 2012 02:59 Zergrusher wrote:On August 22 2012 02:42 Belial88 wrote:aybe because sc2 is young and people haven't really figured things out.. and most players are trapped in the "mold" of the metagames, people haven't thought of things You make it sound like the pros don't think about this stuff, talk about this stuff, live and breath this stuff, all day long for 24/7/365, yet you know something they don't. I hate when people talk about the metagame or how the game is currently played as standard as 'trapped' or 'stuck' or something. There is a ton of innovation that went into what the metagame is currently, by thousands of pro gamers who have done nothing but try to find roundabout ways to play the game. You might be smarter than MVP, hell, you might, just maybe, be smarter than Nestea. And okay, I'll give it to you that you are smarter than Stephano. But you aren't smarter than all of these guys combined, who've been playing this game for money for years now. You don't think Losira hasn't thought "hm, if I get hive quicker, off 3 base, maybe I can just win then and there!". There's a reason people mass spines in ZvP - you simply need them. Adrenal and 3/3 isn't as crucial in ZvP as it is in ZvT, it's more like broodlords are the real lynchpin. You either get them, or you don't. (i mean you dont mass spines in zvt). Both ultras and broods need a ton of support to use. It's perfectly viable to rush hive by only making 4 infestors and starting hive as soon as infestation pit is done. But there's more than 1 way to play zvt (well, just 2, really). If you morph a quick infestation pit, hive, after making 15+ mutas, it wouldn't make much sense, seeing as you can't afford a broodlord army yet, and you couldn't get any sort of upgrade or ultras out in time anyways. I don't really know what you are trying to suggest anyways. Yea, if the 5 infestors you got were instead ultras, you'd have like 3 ultras with zero infestor support? If you aren't saying rush your hive asap, than what are you saying? People already tend to get hive pretty quickly, especially with certain styles more than others. and lol ultra/bane/ling/hydra. you make 2 hydras, I'll stick with 1 infestor instead. well it IS possible to do a infestorless style in ZVT and ZVP Its possible, but why wouldn't you want to make zergs best unit(by far)? Because its a true test of skill That doesn't even make sense. It's like saying you play with 1 hand because its a true test of skill. You either win or you lose. lol
Think about what i Just said.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 22 2012 03:09 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 03:07 Moosegills wrote:On August 22 2012 02:59 Zergrusher wrote:On August 22 2012 02:42 Belial88 wrote:aybe because sc2 is young and people haven't really figured things out.. and most players are trapped in the "mold" of the metagames, people haven't thought of things You make it sound like the pros don't think about this stuff, talk about this stuff, live and breath this stuff, all day long for 24/7/365, yet you know something they don't. I hate when people talk about the metagame or how the game is currently played as standard as 'trapped' or 'stuck' or something. There is a ton of innovation that went into what the metagame is currently, by thousands of pro gamers who have done nothing but try to find roundabout ways to play the game. You might be smarter than MVP, hell, you might, just maybe, be smarter than Nestea. And okay, I'll give it to you that you are smarter than Stephano. But you aren't smarter than all of these guys combined, who've been playing this game for money for years now. You don't think Losira hasn't thought "hm, if I get hive quicker, off 3 base, maybe I can just win then and there!". There's a reason people mass spines in ZvP - you simply need them. Adrenal and 3/3 isn't as crucial in ZvP as it is in ZvT, it's more like broodlords are the real lynchpin. You either get them, or you don't. (i mean you dont mass spines in zvt). Both ultras and broods need a ton of support to use. It's perfectly viable to rush hive by only making 4 infestors and starting hive as soon as infestation pit is done. But there's more than 1 way to play zvt (well, just 2, really). If you morph a quick infestation pit, hive, after making 15+ mutas, it wouldn't make much sense, seeing as you can't afford a broodlord army yet, and you couldn't get any sort of upgrade or ultras out in time anyways. I don't really know what you are trying to suggest anyways. Yea, if the 5 infestors you got were instead ultras, you'd have like 3 ultras with zero infestor support? If you aren't saying rush your hive asap, than what are you saying? People already tend to get hive pretty quickly, especially with certain styles more than others. and lol ultra/bane/ling/hydra. you make 2 hydras, I'll stick with 1 infestor instead. well it IS possible to do a infestorless style in ZVT and ZVP Its possible, but why wouldn't you want to make zergs best unit(by far)? Because its a true test of skill
You almost had a legitimate point, but now you're just trolling.
Hey guys, why not just worker rush every game? It's the true test of who has the best micro! It takes so much skill, it's amazing! You know, we should skip infestors and spawning pool to get a faster rush!
Yeah.
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On August 22 2012 03:26 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 03:09 Zergrusher wrote:On August 22 2012 03:07 Moosegills wrote:On August 22 2012 02:59 Zergrusher wrote:On August 22 2012 02:42 Belial88 wrote:aybe because sc2 is young and people haven't really figured things out.. and most players are trapped in the "mold" of the metagames, people haven't thought of things You make it sound like the pros don't think about this stuff, talk about this stuff, live and breath this stuff, all day long for 24/7/365, yet you know something they don't. I hate when people talk about the metagame or how the game is currently played as standard as 'trapped' or 'stuck' or something. There is a ton of innovation that went into what the metagame is currently, by thousands of pro gamers who have done nothing but try to find roundabout ways to play the game. You might be smarter than MVP, hell, you might, just maybe, be smarter than Nestea. And okay, I'll give it to you that you are smarter than Stephano. But you aren't smarter than all of these guys combined, who've been playing this game for money for years now. You don't think Losira hasn't thought "hm, if I get hive quicker, off 3 base, maybe I can just win then and there!". There's a reason people mass spines in ZvP - you simply need them. Adrenal and 3/3 isn't as crucial in ZvP as it is in ZvT, it's more like broodlords are the real lynchpin. You either get them, or you don't. (i mean you dont mass spines in zvt). Both ultras and broods need a ton of support to use. It's perfectly viable to rush hive by only making 4 infestors and starting hive as soon as infestation pit is done. But there's more than 1 way to play zvt (well, just 2, really). If you morph a quick infestation pit, hive, after making 15+ mutas, it wouldn't make much sense, seeing as you can't afford a broodlord army yet, and you couldn't get any sort of upgrade or ultras out in time anyways. I don't really know what you are trying to suggest anyways. Yea, if the 5 infestors you got were instead ultras, you'd have like 3 ultras with zero infestor support? If you aren't saying rush your hive asap, than what are you saying? People already tend to get hive pretty quickly, especially with certain styles more than others. and lol ultra/bane/ling/hydra. you make 2 hydras, I'll stick with 1 infestor instead. well it IS possible to do a infestorless style in ZVT and ZVP Its possible, but why wouldn't you want to make zergs best unit(by far)? Because its a true test of skill You almost had a legitimate point, but now you're just trolling. Hey guys, why not just worker rush every game? It's the true test of who has the best micro! It takes so much skill, it's amazing! You know, we should skip infestors and spawning pool to get a faster rush! Yeah.
but I am not trolling 0_o
playing without infestors is more exciting and allows you to do much more then what is expected.
course you need infestors in ZVZ but in ZVT and ZVP you can go without them if your really good with your army engagements/comps/postioning.
and it allows unit comps to shine and tier 3 units to be used abit better.... instead of just being the infestors lacky
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On August 22 2012 03:30 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 03:26 Mavvie wrote:On August 22 2012 03:09 Zergrusher wrote:On August 22 2012 03:07 Moosegills wrote:On August 22 2012 02:59 Zergrusher wrote:On August 22 2012 02:42 Belial88 wrote:aybe because sc2 is young and people haven't really figured things out.. and most players are trapped in the "mold" of the metagames, people haven't thought of things You make it sound like the pros don't think about this stuff, talk about this stuff, live and breath this stuff, all day long for 24/7/365, yet you know something they don't. I hate when people talk about the metagame or how the game is currently played as standard as 'trapped' or 'stuck' or something. There is a ton of innovation that went into what the metagame is currently, by thousands of pro gamers who have done nothing but try to find roundabout ways to play the game. You might be smarter than MVP, hell, you might, just maybe, be smarter than Nestea. And okay, I'll give it to you that you are smarter than Stephano. But you aren't smarter than all of these guys combined, who've been playing this game for money for years now. You don't think Losira hasn't thought "hm, if I get hive quicker, off 3 base, maybe I can just win then and there!". There's a reason people mass spines in ZvP - you simply need them. Adrenal and 3/3 isn't as crucial in ZvP as it is in ZvT, it's more like broodlords are the real lynchpin. You either get them, or you don't. (i mean you dont mass spines in zvt). Both ultras and broods need a ton of support to use. It's perfectly viable to rush hive by only making 4 infestors and starting hive as soon as infestation pit is done. But there's more than 1 way to play zvt (well, just 2, really). If you morph a quick infestation pit, hive, after making 15+ mutas, it wouldn't make much sense, seeing as you can't afford a broodlord army yet, and you couldn't get any sort of upgrade or ultras out in time anyways. I don't really know what you are trying to suggest anyways. Yea, if the 5 infestors you got were instead ultras, you'd have like 3 ultras with zero infestor support? If you aren't saying rush your hive asap, than what are you saying? People already tend to get hive pretty quickly, especially with certain styles more than others. and lol ultra/bane/ling/hydra. you make 2 hydras, I'll stick with 1 infestor instead. well it IS possible to do a infestorless style in ZVT and ZVP Its possible, but why wouldn't you want to make zergs best unit(by far)? Because its a true test of skill You almost had a legitimate point, but now you're just trolling. Hey guys, why not just worker rush every game? It's the true test of who has the best micro! It takes so much skill, it's amazing! You know, we should skip infestors and spawning pool to get a faster rush! Yeah. but I am not trolling 0_o playing without infestors is more exciting and allows you to do much more then what is expected. course you need infestors in ZVZ but in ZVT and ZVP you can go without them if your really good with your army engagements/comps/postioning. and it allows unit comps to shine and tier 3 units to be used abit better.... instead of just being the infestors lacky
May i ask what league you are in
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On August 22 2012 03:30 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 03:26 Mavvie wrote:On August 22 2012 03:09 Zergrusher wrote:On August 22 2012 03:07 Moosegills wrote:On August 22 2012 02:59 Zergrusher wrote:On August 22 2012 02:42 Belial88 wrote:aybe because sc2 is young and people haven't really figured things out.. and most players are trapped in the "mold" of the metagames, people haven't thought of things You make it sound like the pros don't think about this stuff, talk about this stuff, live and breath this stuff, all day long for 24/7/365, yet you know something they don't. I hate when people talk about the metagame or how the game is currently played as standard as 'trapped' or 'stuck' or something. There is a ton of innovation that went into what the metagame is currently, by thousands of pro gamers who have done nothing but try to find roundabout ways to play the game. You might be smarter than MVP, hell, you might, just maybe, be smarter than Nestea. And okay, I'll give it to you that you are smarter than Stephano. But you aren't smarter than all of these guys combined, who've been playing this game for money for years now. You don't think Losira hasn't thought "hm, if I get hive quicker, off 3 base, maybe I can just win then and there!". There's a reason people mass spines in ZvP - you simply need them. Adrenal and 3/3 isn't as crucial in ZvP as it is in ZvT, it's more like broodlords are the real lynchpin. You either get them, or you don't. (i mean you dont mass spines in zvt). Both ultras and broods need a ton of support to use. It's perfectly viable to rush hive by only making 4 infestors and starting hive as soon as infestation pit is done. But there's more than 1 way to play zvt (well, just 2, really). If you morph a quick infestation pit, hive, after making 15+ mutas, it wouldn't make much sense, seeing as you can't afford a broodlord army yet, and you couldn't get any sort of upgrade or ultras out in time anyways. I don't really know what you are trying to suggest anyways. Yea, if the 5 infestors you got were instead ultras, you'd have like 3 ultras with zero infestor support? If you aren't saying rush your hive asap, than what are you saying? People already tend to get hive pretty quickly, especially with certain styles more than others. and lol ultra/bane/ling/hydra. you make 2 hydras, I'll stick with 1 infestor instead. well it IS possible to do a infestorless style in ZVT and ZVP Its possible, but why wouldn't you want to make zergs best unit(by far)? Because its a true test of skill You almost had a legitimate point, but now you're just trolling. Hey guys, why not just worker rush every game? It's the true test of who has the best micro! It takes so much skill, it's amazing! You know, we should skip infestors and spawning pool to get a faster rush! Yeah. but I am not trolling 0_o playing without infestors is more exciting and allows you to do much more then what is expected. course you need infestors in ZVZ but in ZVT and ZVP you can go without them if your really good with your army engagements/comps/postioning. and it allows unit comps to shine and tier 3 units to be used abit better.... instead of just being the infestors lacky
If you don't plan on making infestors, then why not just morph a hive ASAP? You're right, but playing w/o infestors is stupid. He can just blink under your broods and kill them, or he can make immortal/zealot/archon and kill your ling/ultra/bane army really cost-effectively.
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On August 22 2012 03:52 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 03:30 Zergrusher wrote:On August 22 2012 03:26 Mavvie wrote:On August 22 2012 03:09 Zergrusher wrote:On August 22 2012 03:07 Moosegills wrote:On August 22 2012 02:59 Zergrusher wrote:On August 22 2012 02:42 Belial88 wrote:aybe because sc2 is young and people haven't really figured things out.. and most players are trapped in the "mold" of the metagames, people haven't thought of things You make it sound like the pros don't think about this stuff, talk about this stuff, live and breath this stuff, all day long for 24/7/365, yet you know something they don't. I hate when people talk about the metagame or how the game is currently played as standard as 'trapped' or 'stuck' or something. There is a ton of innovation that went into what the metagame is currently, by thousands of pro gamers who have done nothing but try to find roundabout ways to play the game. You might be smarter than MVP, hell, you might, just maybe, be smarter than Nestea. And okay, I'll give it to you that you are smarter than Stephano. But you aren't smarter than all of these guys combined, who've been playing this game for money for years now. You don't think Losira hasn't thought "hm, if I get hive quicker, off 3 base, maybe I can just win then and there!". There's a reason people mass spines in ZvP - you simply need them. Adrenal and 3/3 isn't as crucial in ZvP as it is in ZvT, it's more like broodlords are the real lynchpin. You either get them, or you don't. (i mean you dont mass spines in zvt). Both ultras and broods need a ton of support to use. It's perfectly viable to rush hive by only making 4 infestors and starting hive as soon as infestation pit is done. But there's more than 1 way to play zvt (well, just 2, really). If you morph a quick infestation pit, hive, after making 15+ mutas, it wouldn't make much sense, seeing as you can't afford a broodlord army yet, and you couldn't get any sort of upgrade or ultras out in time anyways. I don't really know what you are trying to suggest anyways. Yea, if the 5 infestors you got were instead ultras, you'd have like 3 ultras with zero infestor support? If you aren't saying rush your hive asap, than what are you saying? People already tend to get hive pretty quickly, especially with certain styles more than others. and lol ultra/bane/ling/hydra. you make 2 hydras, I'll stick with 1 infestor instead. well it IS possible to do a infestorless style in ZVT and ZVP Its possible, but why wouldn't you want to make zergs best unit(by far)? Because its a true test of skill You almost had a legitimate point, but now you're just trolling. Hey guys, why not just worker rush every game? It's the true test of who has the best micro! It takes so much skill, it's amazing! You know, we should skip infestors and spawning pool to get a faster rush! Yeah. but I am not trolling 0_o playing without infestors is more exciting and allows you to do much more then what is expected. course you need infestors in ZVZ but in ZVT and ZVP you can go without them if your really good with your army engagements/comps/postioning. and it allows unit comps to shine and tier 3 units to be used abit better.... instead of just being the infestors lacky If you don't plan on making infestors, then why not just morph a hive ASAP? You're right, but playing w/o infestors is stupid. He can just blink under your broods and kill them, or he can make immortal/zealot/archon and kill your ling/ultra/bane army really cost-effectively.
Well actaully if you have all tech routes/units at your disposal anyways his tech switches usually can be dealt with.
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EPT
