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On August 20 2012 08:48 quarkral wrote:
On Cloud Kingdom, for ZvP, why do people not take their thirds at the 3 or 9 o'clock position? The usual third base is so awkward to defend against 2 base pushes.
Have you tried it? It's terrible. There're even more spots to check for pylons, plus there's a critical ramp between it and your natural that's easily FF'd (two FF), preventing you from having any chance of saving your third should your army not already be at your third. Likewise, if they go up the ramp and FF you out, good luck saving your natural. You may even lose your main after that, as he can kill your natural, run up into the main, and repeat using that ramp.
Plus, nail in the coffin, that third is even more exposed than the usual third, in terms of setting up a spine defense.
There's a good reason that it's left as the sixth base in most matchups, it's almost always the worst base on your side of the map.
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I tried it once, but the game didn't really mean much. P tried to do a usual push against the usual third (which I took as a macro hatch) by going through the bottom path. Meanwhile my army was in the middle of the map and was out of position to engage something going through the bottom path, so it just turned into a base trade which I won fairly easily since my actual third was completely safe from his push.
I just feel like if P pushes along the bottommost (or respectively the topmost) path, there's no good place to engage that push, and the only option is just to go across the middle of the map and base trade.
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^ Dont engage him at the third then, engage in the open areas right before (like the middle of the map). Or, use a few spines, which work good in chokes. You can also still flank on that map, and certain pushes like immortal/sentry can't be beat without flanking.
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Guys, i would love it if someone would show me a guide about picking the next map to play on in a tournament. (usually loser picks).
I tried looking for one, they are all outdated.
So basically like which maps should a zerg pick for their next match against all match ups? ZvT, ZvP, as well as zvz certain play styles favour which maps.. thank you! It would also be awesome if you can answer this yourself!
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On August 21 2012 07:01 pyrostat wrote:
Guys, i would love it if someone would show me a guide about picking the next map to play on in a tournament. (usually loser picks).
I tried looking for one, they are all outdated.
So basically like which maps should a zerg pick for their next match against all match ups? ZvT, ZvP, as well as zvz certain play styles favour which maps.. thank you! It would also be awesome if you can answer this yourself!
It should be personal preference.
I'd probably pick condemned or daybreak, and try my best to avoid shakuras, antiga, or entombed.
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so it seems like i cannot start a strategy thread,
but anyways to my fellow zergs I have a question.
Do you have any valid reason/excuse to not get your hive tech morphing when your infestation pit finishes?
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On August 21 2012 11:52 Zergrusher wrote:
so it seems like i cannot start a strategy thread,
but anyways to my fellow zergs I have a question.
Do you have any valid reason/excuse to not get your hive tech morphing when your infestation pit finishes?
150 gas = 1 more infestor. When Terran's knocking at your front door (with a pretty all-in push, if it's hitting right when infestors pop), you want that extra fungal. While I see your point, and believe it, typically once your infestation pit finishes you want to bank as much gas as possible to get a big swell of infestors. I like to go up to 6-8, start my hive, then add more if he's being aggressive (and is a Terran ever not aggressive?)
It's really not a big deal. Getting a really fast hive will hurt your eco if you try to support it, getting a really fast hive without setting up a transition is even worse. Just my thoughts!
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On August 21 2012 13:37 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 11:52 Zergrusher wrote:
so it seems like i cannot start a strategy thread,
but anyways to my fellow zergs I have a question.
Do you have any valid reason/excuse to not get your hive tech morphing when your infestation pit finishes? 150 gas = 1 more infestor. When Terran's knocking at your front door (with a pretty all-in push, if it's hitting right when infestors pop), you want that extra fungal. While I see your point, and believe it, typically once your infestation pit finishes you want to bank as much gas as possible to get a big swell of infestors. I like to go up to 6-8, start my hive, then add more if he's being aggressive (and is a Terran ever not aggressive?) It's really not a big deal. Getting a really fast hive will hurt your eco if you try to support it, getting a really fast hive without setting up a transition is even worse. Just my thoughts!
Well you can simply get your hive to get your +3's and Adrenal glands and your tier 3 tech structure( Ultra cavern or Greater spire (this is 3 base eco mind you) and still be able to make units.
Once your on 4 or more bases( plenty of gas income) THEN you start getting your tier 3 units since you will have the gas income for it.
(Remember back in BW zergs teched due to the gas income and number of bases?)
but yeah All I am saying is.... if you have the chance to get your hive... then get it. No excuses not to morph it.
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Guys, i would love it if someone would show me a guide about picking the next map to play on in a tournament. (usually loser picks).
I tried looking for one, they are all outdated.
So basically like which maps should a zerg pick for their next match against all match ups? ZvT, ZvP, as well as zvz certain play styles favour which maps.. thank you! It would also be awesome if you can answer this yourself!
sorry i am reposting this because i want more answers. !
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On August 21 2012 13:45 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 13:37 Mavvie wrote:On August 21 2012 11:52 Zergrusher wrote:
so it seems like i cannot start a strategy thread,
but anyways to my fellow zergs I have a question.
Do you have any valid reason/excuse to not get your hive tech morphing when your infestation pit finishes? 150 gas = 1 more infestor. When Terran's knocking at your front door (with a pretty all-in push, if it's hitting right when infestors pop), you want that extra fungal. While I see your point, and believe it, typically once your infestation pit finishes you want to bank as much gas as possible to get a big swell of infestors. I like to go up to 6-8, start my hive, then add more if he's being aggressive (and is a Terran ever not aggressive?) It's really not a big deal. Getting a really fast hive will hurt your eco if you try to support it, getting a really fast hive without setting up a transition is even worse. Just my thoughts! Well you can simply get your hive to get your +3's and Adrenal glands and your tier 3 tech structure( Ultra cavern or Greater spire (this is 3 base eco mind you) and still be able to make units. Once your on 4 or more bases( plenty of gas income) THEN you start getting your tier 3 units since you will have the gas income for it. (Remember back in BW zergs teched due to the gas income and number of bases?) but yeah All I am saying is.... if you have the chance to get your hive... then get it. No excuses not to morph it.
This is actually how I like to play. I was like, "why not ever get all your tech?"
Upon lair completion I'd throw down infestation pit /and/ spire, make 10-15 mutas while starting hive, then (in theory) make some infestors before transitioning to broodlrods.
The problem was that in the timeframe of hive completion, you can't afford 15 mutas, 10 infestors, greater spire, +3/+3, crackling, and any roaches or banes. What's your hive doing for you? Almost nothing. You don't need a hive that fast usually -- you can get more aggerssive if you spend the gas on units instead of tech. I mean I see your point, and it's true that all Zergs (even pros) mess up their hive timing hugely -- getting a faster hive and not using it isn't that big a deal, but generally you shouldn't get things until you need them. You don't start a double evo off 1 gas when you only have 50 gas based on the logic of "but I'm going to get the evos anyway!"; it's still not worth investing in tech early if it's going to be idle/wasted.
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On August 21 2012 13:59 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 13:45 Zergrusher wrote:On August 21 2012 13:37 Mavvie wrote:On August 21 2012 11:52 Zergrusher wrote:
so it seems like i cannot start a strategy thread,
but anyways to my fellow zergs I have a question.
Do you have any valid reason/excuse to not get your hive tech morphing when your infestation pit finishes? 150 gas = 1 more infestor. When Terran's knocking at your front door (with a pretty all-in push, if it's hitting right when infestors pop), you want that extra fungal. While I see your point, and believe it, typically once your infestation pit finishes you want to bank as much gas as possible to get a big swell of infestors. I like to go up to 6-8, start my hive, then add more if he's being aggressive (and is a Terran ever not aggressive?) It's really not a big deal. Getting a really fast hive will hurt your eco if you try to support it, getting a really fast hive without setting up a transition is even worse. Just my thoughts! Well you can simply get your hive to get your +3's and Adrenal glands and your tier 3 tech structure( Ultra cavern or Greater spire (this is 3 base eco mind you) and still be able to make units. Once your on 4 or more bases( plenty of gas income) THEN you start getting your tier 3 units since you will have the gas income for it. (Remember back in BW zergs teched due to the gas income and number of bases?) but yeah All I am saying is.... if you have the chance to get your hive... then get it. No excuses not to morph it. This is actually how I like to play. I was like, "why not ever get all your tech?" Upon lair completion I'd throw down infestation pit /and/ spire, make 10-15 mutas while starting hive, then (in theory) make some infestors before transitioning to broodlrods. The problem was that in the timeframe of hive completion, you can't afford 15 mutas, 10 infestors, greater spire, +3/+3, crackling, and any roaches or banes. What's your hive doing for you? Almost nothing. You don't need a hive that fast usually -- you can get more aggerssive if you spend the gas on units instead of tech. I mean I see your point, and it's true that all Zergs (even pros) mess up their hive timing hugely -- getting a faster hive and not using it isn't that big a deal, but generally you shouldn't get things until you need them. You don't start a double evo off 1 gas when you only have 50 gas based on the logic of "but I'm going to get the evos anyway!"; it's still not worth investing in tech early if it's going to be idle/wasted.
well it depends on what you spend your gas on correct?
more infestors and mutas means less gas for units/tech and upgrades and delayed hive.
and you get your hive in the same logical sense why T gets the armory and P gets the twilight counsel.
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should i morph hive as soon as infestation pit is done?
If you can't afford hive tech because you made your hive too early, then there's no point in making a hive that early, and all that happens is your mid-game is weaker because you spent that gas early on, and the hive isn't useful because you can't afford hive tech.
it really depends on what you are trying to do. If you go 20+ mutas, you should definitely delay hive as you aren't going to get hivetech in time for a 3 base rine/tnak push, so you might as well hold off for a bit and bank infestors, gas, and then for broodlords. If you want to make ultras to hold a push, then you might morph hive when infestation pit finishes.
It really depends on what you are trying to do, if you go mutas or infestors, and if you plan to go broodlords or ultras when hive is done. The more mutas/infestors you make, the more you might want to delay hive, the less mutas/infestors you get or the more you want to rely on ultras vs infestors/mutas, you want to get it quicker. Not really a tell-all answer to this question. Totally depends on the circumstances of the game and what you are doing, and what you are trying to do.
I find broodlords really requires 5 base gas, so I generally start hive later, as I like to go mutas, and I tend to skip ultras in favor of broodlords 20 seconds later, as I also make lots of infestors too (i like to build up energy, use them to hold pushes while hive is morphing, and have a healthy core for my broodlords when they pop).
All I'm saying is - is if you rely on lots of mutas, go hive. If you like to go infestors, you may want it quicker. If you want to go ultras, get a quick hive, if you like broodlords, you might want to delay it. It entirely depends on your playstle, but it depends what you do at lair and what you plan to do with hive (mutas, broodlords, later hive, infestors, ultras, quicker hive). Don't get hive if you can't afford what you would get with it or whatever tech you want isn't going to be done in time for that timing push anyways, or to sacrifice a larger mid-game army you may want/need for defense/offense
Guys, i would love it if someone would show me a guide about picking the next map to play on in a tournament. (usually loser picks).
I tried looking for one, they are all outdated.
So basically like which maps should a zerg pick for their next match against all match ups? ZvT, ZvP, as well as zvz certain play styles favour which maps.. thank you! It would also be awesome if you can answer this yourself!
sorry i am reposting this because i want more answers. !
I don't think this is hard to figure out yourself. What maps do YOU like/dislike to play on? That's all. There is no right or wrong answer - if you like TDA ling/bane wars, pick TDA. If you don't, don't pick it. If you like macro games with mutas, go for daybreak. If you like to all-in or go infestors, you would probably rather pick something like entombed or something. Check out the "Zerg season whatever-season-we're-on map vetos" thread...
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On August 21 2012 14:04 Belial88 wrote:If you can't afford hive tech because you made your hive too early, then there's no point in making a hive that early, and all that happens is your mid-game is weaker because you spent that gas early on, and the hive isn't useful because you can't afford hive tech. it really depends on what you are trying to do. If you go 20+ mutas, you should definitely delay hive as you aren't going to get hivetech in time for a 3 base rine/tnak push, so you might as well hold off for a bit and bank infestors, gas, and then for broodlords. If you want to make ultras to hold a push, then you might morph hive when infestation pit finishes. It really depends on what you are trying to do, if you go mutas or infestors, and if you plan to go broodlords or ultras when hive is done. The more mutas/infestors you make, the more you might want to delay hive, the less mutas/infestors you get or the more you want to rely on ultras vs infestors/mutas, you want to get it quicker. Not really a tell-all answer to this question. Totally depends on the circumstances of the game and what you are doing, and what you are trying to do. I find broodlords really requires 5 base gas, so I generally start hive later, as I like to go mutas, and I tend to skip ultras in favor of broodlords 20 seconds later, as I also make lots of infestors too (i like to build up energy, use them to hold pushes while hive is morphing, and have a healthy core for my broodlords when they pop). All I'm saying is - is if you rely on lots of mutas, go hive. If you like to go infestors, you may want it quicker. If you want to go ultras, get a quick hive, if you like broodlords, you might want to delay it. It entirely depends on your playstle, but it depends what you do at lair and what you plan to do with hive (mutas, broodlords, later hive, infestors, ultras, quicker hive). Don't get hive if you can't afford what you would get with it or whatever tech you want isn't going to be done in time for that timing push anyways, or to sacrifice a larger mid-game army you may want/need for defense/offenseShow nested quote +Guys, i would love it if someone would show me a guide about picking the next map to play on in a tournament. (usually loser picks).
I tried looking for one, they are all outdated.
So basically like which maps should a zerg pick for their next match against all match ups? ZvT, ZvP, as well as zvz certain play styles favour which maps.. thank you! It would also be awesome if you can answer this yourself!
sorry i am reposting this because i want more answers. ! I don't think this is hard to figure out yourself. What maps do YOU like/dislike to play on? That's all. There is no right or wrong answer - if you like TDA ling/bane wars, pick TDA. If you don't, don't pick it. If you like macro games with mutas, go for daybreak. If you like to all-in or go infestors, you would probably rather pick something like entombed or something. Check out the "Zerg season whatever-season-we're-on map vetos" thread...
hmmm
well Think about getting your hive like how terran gets the armory and protoss get the Twilight counsel.
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^ No... i wouldn't really put it that way.
More like:
When Toss goes for Third, you either start going towards infestors, hive, or mutas (in which case you get hive once HT tech starts going, or when toss stabilzes basically).
In ZvT... really just depends on what you are doing. the less mutas you make, the quicker the hive, if you go ultras you want to really rush hive, if you go broods you want to delay hive since you can't afford them anyways if you rush it and going to need to buy time using ling/bane/infestors.
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On August 21 2012 14:15 Belial88 wrote:
^ No... i wouldn't really put it that way.
More like:
When Toss goes for Third, you either start going towards infestors, hive, or mutas (in which case you get hive once HT tech starts going, or when toss stabilzes basically).
In ZvT... really just depends on what you are doing. the less mutas you make, the quicker the hive, if you go ultras you want to really rush hive, if you go broods you want to delay hive since you can't afford them anyways if you rush it and going to need to buy time using ling/bane/infestors.
Well if you look at all the factors gas usage is the biggest(because of infestors or mutas),
and I actaully like this discussion we are having because maybe Hives will be made at a sooner time once people figure it out.
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yea, it just depends on your gas usage and what you plan to do. what exactly do you mean though? i mean i dont think any zergs are confused on hive timings, and most zergs these days seem to get them pretty quickly.
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Does anyone know this build TSL Revival does in z v z. Its a 1-1 timing attack with infestors , taking a third safely behind, if it doesn't outright win the game.
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On August 21 2012 14:29 Belial88 wrote:
yea, it just depends on your gas usage and what you plan to do. what exactly do you mean though? i mean i dont think any zergs are confused on hive timings, and most zergs these days seem to get them pretty quickly.
well like my original post was..
if your pit is done. morph your hive.
its like days 9 when behind, darkshrine
but less catchy sounding.
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On August 21 2012 13:45 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 13:37 Mavvie wrote:On August 21 2012 11:52 Zergrusher wrote:
so it seems like i cannot start a strategy thread,
but anyways to my fellow zergs I have a question.
Do you have any valid reason/excuse to not get your hive tech morphing when your infestation pit finishes? 150 gas = 1 more infestor. When Terran's knocking at your front door (with a pretty all-in push, if it's hitting right when infestors pop), you want that extra fungal. While I see your point, and believe it, typically once your infestation pit finishes you want to bank as much gas as possible to get a big swell of infestors. I like to go up to 6-8, start my hive, then add more if he's being aggressive (and is a Terran ever not aggressive?) It's really not a big deal. Getting a really fast hive will hurt your eco if you try to support it, getting a really fast hive without setting up a transition is even worse. Just my thoughts! Well you can simply get your hive to get your +3's and Adrenal glands and your tier 3 tech structure( Ultra cavern or Greater spire (this is 3 base eco mind you) and still be able to make units. Once your on 4 or more bases( plenty of gas income) THEN you start getting your tier 3 units since you will have the gas income for it. (Remember back in BW zergs teched due to the gas income and number of bases?) but yeah All I am saying is.... if you have the chance to get your hive... then get it. No excuses not to morph it.
Hive tech without a good infestor count is trash. You can't win in the endgame without infestors, and you may not make it through the midgame without them, that's why it's standard, and also why it's strong, because unlike muta or hydra, infestors last and last. Often the difference between a win and a loss in any matchup is retaining infestors, energy often wins every fight after the first (assuming you reinforce and remax well).
On August 21 2012 14:08 Zergrusher wrote:
well Think about getting your hive like how terran gets the armory and protoss get the Twilight counsel.
There's nearly an order of magnitude difference. Armory + next upgrades for bio and twilight + blink AND charge is what, 600/600? And Hive + GS/ultra cavern + 4ultra / 6 BL is more than 1k/1k, and relatively useless compared to the upgrades (low infestor count vs benefit to units already on field).
I get it, Hive tech wins games, why not get it faster. The problem is that it's something your opponent is watching for, and when he sees the Hive he's just going to smash you because that timing window, where you normally have spines and infestors to delay, is now a giant archway. It's like fast teching to DTs, not just twilight council. You better make something happen with those quick BLs, but wait--DTs before detection rock by themselves, BLs before vikings/mothership are fragile enough to die to marines and stalkers. Which, conveniently, are often rather abundant.
Seriously, zergs already get hive ASAP. But right after the infestation pit pops is just cripplingly early, in my mind. I need STUFF at that point, not hive tech units ~4 minutes from now (100s hive, 100s GS, 34s BL morph from ready-built corruptors = 234s; 100s hive, 65s ultra cavern, 55s ultras = 280s). I already invest into infestation pit and pathogen glands, I feel like I really need a quick midgame tech swell (i.e. batch of infestors) or I get run over, even with roach-ling or 1-1 lings.
EDIT: minor parenthetical added.
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On August 21 2012 03:23 Belial88 wrote:
^ Dont engage him at the third then, engage in the open areas right before (like the middle of the map). Or, use a few spines, which work good in chokes. You can also still flank on that map, and certain pushes like immortal/sentry can't be beat without flanking.
If he pushes through the middle of the map, then yeah, I can engage him there. Or if I have enough units across the map, I can engage him at his watchtower (which isn't likely in the early midgame).
But if my army is in the middle of the map and P pushes through the bottom or top most lane, I can't really engage him before he reaches my third. In this case, I feel like the only option I have is to base trade. Granted, that does seem like a pretty good option since he's so out of position.
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EPT
