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On August 19 2012 01:17 Mavvie wrote:
Ok this is a nooby question but I don't even :/
So I played around 10 ZvZ's in a row yesterday, with a 50% winrate
I switched around between 14/14/21 and 15p/16h/17g, going for a 10 mutalisk midgame to deny his third while securing mine (super effective), transitioning into double evo roach/hydra, adding on infestors.
If I got mutalisks out, I won, otherwise, I lost.
However, I kept losing to 2 base (20 drones at most) ling/bane all-ins, and I found it fucking stupid. Queens have enough range to deny consistent overlord scouting his drone count, and his banes beat my banes.
Honestly, I'll have 5-10 more drones, hold off with 0 losses, but he just keeps making lings and I eventually mismicro my ling/bane and lose. I literally lose to every early 2 base all in, and can't find any guide that discusses how to beat them.
So basically, how to defend 1-2 base ling bane all ins? I have a spine and defensive banes, but eventually just get overrun.
Get additional spine and defend with ling/bane. I know its easier said than done but with queen, spine and a better economy you got a huge advantage so unless he outmicroes you hard you should hold.
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On August 19 2012 01:59 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 01:24 pyrostat wrote:On August 18 2012 11:53 Belial88 wrote:On August 18 2012 10:18 pyrostat wrote:if i may ask, can you please read my previous post? how do you beat terran air as zerg consisting of ravens, vikings, bio force, as well as a couple thors/tanks to deny infestors? http://day9.tv/d/Day9/nestea-z-vs-kas-t-iem-gamescom-day-2-group-b/this game what could have nestea done? even if he tech switched into ultras, that would be a stupid choice considering he had all the tools he needed such as maraders and thors to counter. how can zerg counter this, especially after patch soon to come which buffs ravens and nerfs zerg creep spread to make things worse? Artosis even states in the cast that nestea should have stopped making broodlords, and gone ultras. I believe it's something like it just takes 3 ultras to beat a PF, even if it's being fully repaired by 20+ SCVs. I see, at 25:59 youtube video time, 16 odd marauders, 2 thors, and some marines. 8 Ultras with the 10 infestors he had supporting to throw down FG+IT, would have rolled this army. I keep telling you the answer, but it seems like you are insistent on this idea that ultras are bad. They aren't. We've been seeing a lot recently that a pure broodlord army of any kind will just get demolished by a raven fleet, as well as simply 20+ vikings. When Terran has that much in air, ultra/infestor will be extremely strong. At 32:00 youtube time, nestea attacks into a huge choke with only 1 ultra, that seemed destined to fail. You shouldn't have any corruptors, infestors are all the AA you'll need to make sure terran doesn't do something like kill every single overlord. He dedicated so much into his broodlords though, a little too late. The game was already lost. I'm not saying it's easy, but you seem to underestimate the power of ultras. You really can't handle a maxed ultra army, even with PFs, if you have 20+ vikings and a lot of supply tied up in ravens. I'm not even saying that ultras would win the game, ravens are pretty hard to deal with. But I can promise you that ravens just destroy any sort of broodlord based army, and that ravens + 20 vikings really aren't that strong against ultras. If you max out on broodlord/infestor in the face of a terran going ravens, you are going to be a tough spot, you can't exactly tech switch into pure ultra with even 6 bases. But if you identify what terran is doing, and go towards ultras instead of more broodlord/infestor, you can do pretty good damage. There's also a lot of zergs who prefer ultra/NP vs pure mech armies instead of broodlords. Ultras are pretty good, and any terran will tell you how much it sucks dealing with the tech switch from zerg. In a case like a map like Metropolis, you just use the ultra army to deny terran from taking any extra bases, while you take more yourself. You can use drops to go around PFs, or quite frankly you can use a pure ultra army to storm through, they really aren't going to care much about a PF. A zerg a while back wrote a guide on how awesome ultras are even against a pure BC army. To be honest though, did you forget that ravens in that numbers can still kill ground units just as fast? especially if they are clumped. you can't just split up your ultras when attacking because they are meelee. They clump up as they attack. Especially zerglings, they will die so fast. With PFS, siege tanks, and maruaders, plus ravens to add to that, no way ultras are going to even touch a terran army. Meh, it takes 5 HSM to kill an ultra. And then just the ultra dies. Speedbane/ultra is also fast and can outrun your raven deathball. This will just force zergs to favour counterattacks/basetrades over direct engagements, unless you can get some clutch fungals (slivko nailed 10 ravens with chain fungals at IEM on daybreak, forget which Terran it was.
then i guess you are saying zerg has to rely on the opponent messin up bad. Which means no pfs, defensive siege tanks, simple depot walls, etc... yeah I think ill switch races untill HOTS comes out
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So um, what is the correct response to a gasless 2 gate chronoing zealots?
I tried going roaches off 1 base to take my nat. Well it was just way too slow. I made 4 roaches and couldn't really do any damage to him, so it just felt like a waste as well.
I actually managed to pull his zealots away by running 4 lings into his main, but idk why he moved away since he had more zealots at home, there wasn't a need to... so I can't really rely on that to take my nat.
Due to his delayed tech and lack of cannons, is it possible to just 1base roach/ling and kill him from here instead of trying to expand?
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United States248 Posts
14/14 into speedling/spine is the correct way to hold that.
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Your OL doesn't get to P's nat to scout this until like 16-17 supply.
The natural takes like 2 minutes to finish after your first lings pop, so you can't move spines over until then. You also don't really get speed until then if you take gas at 16-17. How do you hold 5 zealots with slowlings and queens off creep?...
I mean each zealot does like 11 dps to a hatchery, in the 100s it's morphing 2 of them will kill it easily. You can't wait that long.
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What's the proper response when a protoss opens double gate at the ramp, beginning a wall at his natural, and then steams zealots while he takes his natural behind his wall? I can't take 3 bases against that - and the zealots hit before my natural is even up.
(I'm high diamond)
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On August 19 2012 01:17 Mavvie wrote:
Ok this is a nooby question but I don't even :/
So I played around 10 ZvZ's in a row yesterday, with a 50% winrate
I switched around between 14/14/21 and 15p/16h/17g, going for a 10 mutalisk midgame to deny his third while securing mine (super effective), transitioning into double evo roach/hydra, adding on infestors.
If I got mutalisks out, I won, otherwise, I lost.
However, I kept losing to 2 base (20 drones at most) ling/bane all-ins, and I found it fucking stupid. Queens have enough range to deny consistent overlord scouting his drone count, and his banes beat my banes.
Honestly, I'll have 5-10 more drones, hold off with 0 losses, but he just keeps making lings and I eventually mismicro my ling/bane and lose. I literally lose to every early 2 base all in, and can't find any guide that discusses how to beat them.
So basically, how to defend 1-2 base ling bane all ins? I have a spine and defensive banes, but eventually just get overrun.
Sounds like your overlords are appoaching from the front of his natural or something. Leave them behind the mineral line, queens can't deny the scoit there, not even on metropolis.
Keep morphing a few banes as you engage each wave. Pool energy on queens and, if it looks like he's still pumping lings, add one spine at the top of the ramp (safe from errant banes). It plays a lot like a zvt in the sense that you always need a few banes on the field, and the best way to do that is to morph some before each fight. Hell, if I know he's all-in and I'm solidly ahead on drones, I go to three drones on gas and morph a new pair of banes every time the previous batch is done. Just make sure you're keeping yours in pairs, split apart, and within range of your spine.
I also recommend keeping your third overlord just outside your natural creep, so that if he is silly and sends 4-5 banes forward to bust your spine, you can preemptively prepare a bane pair to take them all down.
By the way, this is all about hatch first. If you 14/14/21, you may be at greater risk of just losing to 2hatch+2 queens worth of lings. I don't enough to say for sure there, but a faster second spine may be the key to making up that larvae difference.
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On August 19 2012 05:56 AndySCWilson wrote:
What's the proper response when a protoss opens double gate at the ramp, beginning a wall at his natural, and then steams zealots while he takes his natural behind his wall? I can't take 3 bases against that - and the zealots hit before my natural is even up.
(I'm high diamond)
yea I just asked that same question above you.
it allows P to take a natural pretty much the same time as a forge FE, but he gets a scary army up much faster and you have much less econ.
honestly I think the only viable response is a roach/ling allin from 1 base.
I mean he sacrifices tech and has no cannons for defense, you can't just let him get away with that.....
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What's the proper response when a protoss opens double gate at the ramp, beginning a wall at his natural, and then steams zealots while he takes his natural behind his wall? I can't take 3 bases against that - and the zealots hit before my natural is even up.
(I'm high diamond)
So um, what is the correct response to a gasless 2 gate chronoing zealots?
Don't be thrown off by where Toss makes his buildings. That's a 2 gate, the same as if Toss proxied them inside your base at 10/10. Get gas, speed, asap, and 2 spines really (obviously, seeing him make the gates at home, and seeing his zealots with your overlord since he won't have AA for a long time until well after core is done, means you can get away with just a single spine, etc, but you still basically need to pump lings after your queen, injects start going, and use spine/queen/couple lings to hold initial pressure).
Don't go for roaches against 2 gate, if Toss goes for a 4 gate transition, which he can very easily do, you lose because your expo/economy is late, and roaches will get kited all day by stalkers. It allows you no way to counter the 2 gate.
You want speedlings against 2 gate because speedlings just crush unupgraded zealots, and so you can send a good 5-10 lings into his base as a counterattack and just win the game then and there. If you go roaches, Toss will have total map control, your expansion will be late, and you won't be able to take your third anytime soon either if Toss expands. Speedlings allow you to end the game and punish a 2 gate by letting you just run into his base and kill all his probes.
Even against a 10/10 proxied gate, I'll go 14p/16h, keep the hatch, and grab a gas and 2 spines in my main as soon as I see it's a 2 gate (no forge/nexus in nat by time pool finishes, or you actually see the 2 gates). 10/10 proxy gate is so all-in that if he focuses the nat, which you can cancel, your 2 spines will be done, and then you get mass speedlings and just win the game, and if he doesn't focus it, it doesn't matter, you have the money for 2 spines anyways and a bit of micro ensures at least one of the spines goes up and you are completely safe.
If you are talking about forge-nexus-gate-gate, then simply get a 6:30 roach warren. it really doesn't matter what toss makes at his wall, to an extent, as you should see no gas at his natural and then respond by making that 6:30 warren. He won't have +1 before 8:00, so slowlings pumped in reaction to zealots send across the map that you see with your lings at the towers and in front of his base and the overlord in front of his base or natural, will be enough until your 6:30 roach warren pops, at which point you can get a couple roaches to end the pressure easily.
That's why no one does that kiwikaki style FFE-2gate - because 4 gate+1 is just infinitely better, and hits with more units at the same timing.
Mavvie, upload a replay of you losing to ling/bane, maybe I can help out. It really shouldn't be hard to hold, that's why no one really does ling/bane wars anymore.
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He's talking about 2 gate at the natural, followed by a nexus. Not proxied, not after forge FE. The 2 gates + zealots are used to wall the toss natural against lings, along with another cybercore/gate/etc. You can't break in with lings unless toss screws up by not having his zealot on hold position or something. It's basically a slower FE but toss can pressure your natural while you can't do jack shit about his with just lings.
Toss is not going for stalkers anytime soon cause he's not mining gas until after plopping down a nexus.
If he sends 5 zealots over, you would need to make a ton of slowlings to fight that off 1 hatchery. It just doesn't seem worth it, since those lings are immediately useless afterwards against a wall.
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On August 19 2012 07:08 quarkral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 05:56 AndySCWilson wrote:
What's the proper response when a protoss opens double gate at the ramp, beginning a wall at his natural, and then steams zealots while he takes his natural behind his wall? I can't take 3 bases against that - and the zealots hit before my natural is even up.
(I'm high diamond) yea I just asked that same question above you. it allows P to take a natural pretty much the same time as a forge FE, but he gets a scary army up much faster and you have much less econ. honestly I think the only viable response is a roach/ling allin from 1 base. I mean he sacrifices tech and has no cannons for defense, you can't just let him get away with that.....
Cant tell you if its the best response but I'd immediately make a spine in main and take gas, make few lings to deal with the initial zealots, move spine to natural and try to go for 2 base muta.
Once you get the mutas out you can secure as many bases as you want and toss will have a very hard time to leave his 2 base because of the delayed tech and lack of anti air units.
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On August 19 2012 08:43 quarkral wrote:
He's talking about 2 gate at the natural, followed by a nexus. Not proxied, not after forge FE. The 2 gates + zealots are used to wall the toss natural against lings, along with another cybercore/gate/etc. You can't break in with lings unless toss screws up by not having his zealot on hold position or something. It's basically a slower FE but toss can pressure your natural while you can't do jack shit about his with just lings.
Toss is not going for stalkers anytime soon cause he's not mining gas until after plopping down a nexus.
If he sends 5 zealots over, you would need to make a ton of slowlings to fight that off 1 hatchery. It just doesn't seem worth it, since those lings are immediately useless afterwards against a wall.
Right, and it doesn't really make much difference where he planted it - you need to respond as if it was proxied, by getting speed and a spine, and Toss is just as delayed in his tech and economy (hence why no one does it at the higher levels of play).
If he pumps zealots, then he won't have a reinforced wall with sentries, core, or forge/cannons, so you can just use speedlings to do some serious hurt. If he doesn't do any pressure, then he just wasted a ton of money and tech time and economy by making a useless 2nd gateway.
If you see it at his wall-in, you likely don't need to make 2 spines (the point of 2 spines is because when proxied, he will likely be able to kill one of them down, even with drone micro, so seeing that it isn't proxied, obviously means you can probably get away with not having to make that 2nd one because you know the first one will get up).
You CAN break through, he may have zealots on hold position, but he won't have sentries for a LONG time, meaning you can just focus down the wall. The only way he'll have something like a cannon or sentries, is if he doesn't use his gateways to continuously produce zealots - hence why it's not really a viable opening. There's the kiwikaki style FFE, 2 gate, no core build, but this is held just the same as if Toss was going a 4 gate +1 (except a much weaker version without warpgates and stalkers/sentries, or, he sends out zealots at the start without +1 which slowlings can handle).
If he sends 5 zealots over, you should have a queen at the third you made. You can easily handle the 5 zealots with 20 lings and a queen, or hell, 10 lings and a spine and a queen. As long as you respond to what you scout - Toss having no gas at his nat, you should be fine, and get roaches with a 6:30 warren in time to stop the +1 pressure, or, if he moves out before that 6:30 warren is done, he won't have +1, and a queen + lings when you see him move out should be enough (even easier if you add a spine).
A 2 gate is a 2 gate. Just because he makes it at the natural, makes it much easier to deal with than if he proxies it, that's all. Get speed just like you would against any 2 gate, hold easily, have a huge advantage. Any sort of forge/nexus/2gate should be treated like a gasless toss as he is, with a 6:30 warren, and reactive slowlings to any sort of gateway move-out just like you would against any normal FFE 1 gate pressure.
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hey zerg friends I was wondering if in zvt 15 pool i15 hatch is viable? I started using it on ladder and got surprising one sided wins against greedy terrans that go cc first or bunker rush. I would get my 15 pool and have scout to see what hes doing if its cc first I just make 6 lings and go win. If its normal 1 rax expansion or some 1 fast helions I just proceed to play normal game and dont feel too much behind. Put people sometimes call me "exploiter noob" is it really noobish to try and get easy wins if you see terran cutting corners hard or being cheesy? Can some one tell me if I play macro game and instead of hatch first I go pool first how much behind economically does it get? Is it stupid for me to go pool first or is it normal?
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On August 20 2012 06:51 M4nkind wrote:
hey zerg friends I was wondering if in zvt 15 pool i15 hatch is viable? I started using it on ladder and got surprising one sided wins against greedy terrans that go cc first or bunker rush. I would get my 15 pool and have scout to see what hes doing if its cc first I just make 6 lings and go win. If its normal 1 rax expansion or some 1 fast helions I just proceed to play normal game and dont feel too much behind. Put people sometimes call me "exploiter noob" is it really noobish to try and get easy wins if you see terran cutting corners hard or being cheesy? Can some one tell me if I play macro game and instead of hatch first I go pool first how much behind economically does it get? Is it stupid for me to go pool first or is it normal?
Pool first is a safe build but hatch first is way better economically. Sure with 15 pool you will never die to 2 rax but economically terran will be ahead of you if he does a 1 rax fe (which most terrans do). 15 pool is quiet a bit worse then hatch first in economy as your queens will be a bit later, instead of making 2 at a time you are making 1 for awhile so 4 queens will be awhile and if you are doing 6 queens even later.
In general though you should ignore whenever someone says your a noob or why you are. They normally just do it out of anger (I do it to) and it's not something to ever think about seriously.
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Can anyone explain exactly how melee and flying upgrades affect broodlords? Obviously the melee attack and ground carapace upgrades affect the broodlings once they are on the ground and flying carapace affects the broodlords armor. But where does flying attack come into play?
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On Cloud Kingdom, for ZvP, why do people not take their thirds at the 3 or 9 o'clock position? The usual third base is so awkward to defend against 2 base pushes.
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On August 20 2012 08:15 DarkBaneling wrote:
Can anyone explain exactly how melee and flying upgrades affect broodlords? Obviously the melee attack and ground carapace upgrades affect the broodlings once they are on the ground and flying carapace affects the broodlords armor. But where does flying attack come into play?
Flying attack upgrades for broodlords increases the damage they deal on their initial attack (when the broodlings fly from the broodlords and hit something).
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Woohoo replays of me losing ZvZs:
http://drop.sc/241113
http://drop.sc/241114
I just need general early-game defense in ZvZ. Here I'll summarize my questions (Belial has no comprehensive ZvZ guide yet  )
1) If I go pool->hatch->gas, do I need to go bane nest first? Khaldor said that in a cast, but I can't believe it's true
2) If I'm going fast lair, do I have to morph like a shitload of banes if he continues to be aggressive? I hold off a huge wave of ling/bane losing only my army, but he's so all-in he doesn't even try to transition, just floods more lings and wins because I'm like (nah I'm safe, I was too cost effective for him to continue
3) Should I make an extra queen if I scout a "late" expo? 14/14/21 or sometimes later? Then I can wall off natural without risking missing/delaying an inject at the main.
I feel like if I overreact (or really make any defences, like cutting drones to get a fast bling nest) will set me so far behind in the macro.
Sorry, but there really are no completely comprehensive guides on ZvZ yet; normally I'd just read a guide.
In my play I tried a few things:
Fast spine or two, fast bling nest, fast evos for wall-off, but I never combined fast spine + bling nest or anything...
I'm just lost. I know how to play the midgame (I opt for a baneling expand, using spine/ling to defend 2base roach/speedroach aggression, or I go 2base muta using as few banes as I can to defend).
Also, just as a sidenote, after playing bmzerg I played him again and did a 6pool drone all-in (terribad all in dont even try it xD)
Edit: In the game against Palmfrond, I was legitimately upset and didn't see the point of not just leaving the game at the beginning of all zvz's. I had been all-inned 5 times in a row, yay! No BM was intended towards the guy, I was just harmlessly mad C:
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From a pool first build, go baneling nest first if his expansion is later than yours (ie he took early gas). Even if it wasnt 14/14/21, it could have been one of those middle of the road builds that sets up for a 2 hatch ling all-in. If his hatch is later than yours, his speed should be significantly earlier. Otherwise go speed first.
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1) If I go pool->hatch->gas, do I need to go bane nest first? Khaldor said that in a cast, but I can't believe it's true
Khaldor has no clue about anything in ZvZ, as most casters are. Really bugs me when he says things like "he can micro against the 10 pool and possibly win" or "he has no chance of winning against the 6 pool! (although horror really, really, really fucked up his control and didnt make any drones).
If you go pool first, you can go speed first just fine, but as oboeman said, i'd recommend going baneling nest first against gaspool builds (as he said, if their expo is later/nonexistent). Basically you have 2 ways to survive a quick ling/bane 1 base all-in -
1. Don't inject at all, save energy for transfuse, single spine (if opponent expands just inject with 1 queen only)
2. Baneling nest first, the 2 queens block the ramp but banelings will be out before transfuse is needed.
it's all preference, personally I like going bane nest first if the opponent goes gaspool because the lack of speed, map control, etc doesnt really matter, you are ahead in drones and if the opponent went gaspool he isn't going to be droning up. I only recently started doing this though, speed first is just fine and just rely on transfuse to keep you alive (you may need to make more lings if you scout the opponent not making drones, just make 6).
2) If I'm going fast lair, do I have to morph like a shitload of banes if he continues to be aggressive? I hold off a huge wave of ling/bane losing only my army, but he's so all-in he doesn't even try to transition, just floods more lings and wins because I'm like (nah I'm safe, I was too cost effective for him to continue
Not particularly. I would recommend you always have like 2-4 lings hotkeyed at home after ~30+ supply so you can morph them into banes if the opponent floods out of his base with lings with the overlord you keep in front of his base. If the opponent is doing roach aggression, you'll want spines though.
At your level though, I'd recommend just making 2 blind banes, and have another 2 lings ready to morph into banes.
3) Should I make an extra queen if I scout a "late" expo? 14/14/21 or sometimes later? Then I can wall off natural without risking missing/delaying an inject at the main.
No, you are fine, don't worry about lost injects too much. If he expands on 21 that isn't late (ie before queens pop). If you go bane nest before speed against 14/14, you'll have banes out before he can have 6+ banes to 1-shot your spine in the natural (that you made in main and re-rooted to nat). If you went speed first just save up for transfuse with queens.
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EPT
