EPT
Would the strategy have worked vs. a barracks style, or was Shine taking a gamble here? (Possibly based on his analysis of Gumiho's style already, dunno)
The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 360
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
Would the strategy have worked vs. a barracks style, or was Shine taking a gamble here? (Possibly based on his analysis of Gumiho's style already, dunno) | ||
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reapsen
Germany559 Posts
so i have spent some time on thinking about Zerg buildings and building placements. It seems to me that there is alot unexplored potential, as most zergs just plant their buildings wherever they feel like. I like Oreks Guide to Spire Protection and it got me thinking on how to further drop-proof my bases. My idea i came up with is multiple Lairs / Hives. I think its not THAT revolutionary that it deserves its own thread, but i was wondering, why don't zergs morph more hatcheries to lairs or hives. The assets are obvious i think: - Alot of more hp (500hp more). - If one gets sniped, the rebuilding of your tech is not so immensly delayed. The drawbacks on the contrary: - The investment (sniping a lair is a net loss of 450/100, a hive is even 650/250) So, of course this idea only applies to the late late game, where you hover around beeing maxed and start banking resources. Especially vs Terran this is usually when you get dropped on multiple locations, so why not morphing at least you most precious expansions to lairs (maybe hives) to give them that extra 500hp and that redundancy in your tech level? | ||
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reapsen
Germany559 Posts
On August 22 2012 21:38 Salivanth wrote: So I watched this video. The game in question is less than 7 minutes long, and you only need to watch it from 2:45 to 4:15 for the part of the game I'm looking at. At 2:45 or so in the video, Gumiho throws down a third CC in his natural, where it can't be seen. He then goes into double engineering bay. As the casters are pointing out that Shine could go for a bust, he throws down a Roach Warren at 4:10-4:15 in the video. What I don't see is: How did he know he could do that? I didn't see him scout the CC or e-bay at all, and if Terran had a bunch of marines or a tech unit or two he wouldn't show them to scouting lings anyway. So, what tipped Shine off that Gumiho was being so greedy that he could bust him? Ehm, i am 99% sure that it wasn't a reactionary decision by Shine, but instead a pre-planned build order all along. He plays a small variant of the 2 Base Roach/Ling/Bling Bust, which is just a very strong bust. You can tell it's pre-planned from the double early gas Shine throws down. The only thing that really 'counters' it, is fast tech like a banshee or a tank. It can be hold with marines and bunkers only, but thats very hard to pull off for terrans. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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Catatafish
75 Posts
1) The toss blocks the natural and the third with pylons 2) The toss makes an early pylon at your natural and follows it up with a quick cannon 3) The toss chronoboosts 2 zealots and 1 stalker off an FFE 4) The toss, having blocked your natural, immediately goes to cannon the third on a map where zerglings have a hard time getting to the base (Say he commits with two pylons walling in a cannon). Hope my questions are clear enough, and thanks a lot! | ||
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ysnake
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On August 23 2012 07:40 Catatafish wrote: I'm a low masters zerg player, and I've been noticing I sometimes have some trouble reaching a sufficient level of drones at the well-known 8:00 bench mark. Usually, this problem happens when the toss messes me in one way or another. So I was wondering, if someone a lot better than me could give me the optimal response to the following situations. I'm using the basic Stephano style (not the maxout, but the gas and building timings) 1) The toss blocks the natural and the third with pylons 2) The toss makes an early pylon at your natural and follows it up with a quick cannon 3) The toss chronoboosts 2 zealots and 1 stalker off an FFE 4) The toss, having blocked your natural, immediately goes to cannon the third on a map where zerglings have a hard time getting to the base (Say he commits with two pylons walling in a cannon). Hope my questions are clear enough, and thanks a lot! 1) Block at the natural is something to be expected, with a completed Pylon, that's why you go 14 pool and you can deal with it with Zerglings only. Play as if 300 Minerals is 0 (have that mindset), just continue the production until the Lings come out to deal with the Pylon. 2) You should have your 9 Overlord over your natural, especially on ladder, in tournaments, they won't do such shenanigans, but you can expect this on the ladder. If you see him building a cannon, pull 4 Drones instantly and target the Cannon. 3) You should have your Overlord by his natural and the Gateway, unless it is Antiga Shipyard, and you should have a couple of Zerglings outside of his natural throughout the early game (unless he is doing some Gateway allin), you can build enough Zerglings to hold any kind of a push, even if your overproduce Zerglings, they will come in use later, use them for map control. 4) This depends on the map, on some maps, you can take another base, if not, you can either get really early Roaches (hurts your economy a bit, but with the third secured, it pays off), or go 2 base Muta and pin the Toss down, which will force him to turtle and delay his third for quite a bit (Muta play is difficult on Cloud Kingdom, but still effective). | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On August 23 2012 07:40 Catatafish wrote: I'm a low masters zerg player, and I've been noticing I sometimes have some trouble reaching a sufficient level of drones at the well-known 8:00 bench mark. Usually, this problem happens when the toss messes me in one way or another. So I was wondering, if someone a lot better than me could give me the optimal response to the following situations. I'm using the basic Stephano style (not the maxout, but the gas and building timings) 1) The toss blocks the natural and the third with pylons 2) The toss makes an early pylon at your natural and follows it up with a quick cannon 3) The toss chronoboosts 2 zealots and 1 stalker off an FFE 4) The toss, having blocked your natural, immediately goes to cannon the third on a map where zerglings have a hard time getting to the base (Say he commits with two pylons walling in a cannon). Hope my questions are clear enough, and thanks a lot! 1. Toss blocking your natural can delay your supply about 5, so you should still easily be able to hit 70. You might not be able to hit 83 with it, but you can hit at least 75. 2. If Toss goes for a cannon rush, hold it, and you are way ahead. I don't think you can hit 80 if a cannon rush goes down, but if you can hit 60+ you should be okay. Really depends on the dedication of the cannon rush and how well you hold it off, but if you hold a cannon rush off, you should be way ahead. 3. If Toss forces you to make units, you should still hit 80+, or at least 70+ just fine. This number is not 80+ drones, it's 80+ supply. You can hit 80+ just fine, if toss makes units to pressure, you are simply making lings/roaches instead of drones. At 7:00 you should be at 60+, so the extra 20 supply, even if it was drones, would not be paying off dividends yet, so it's not a big deal if those a lings instead of drones, in terms of what supply you should be hitting. 4. Again, if Toss does a cannon rush, you won't hit 80+, but if you hold you should be way ahead anyways. You should have had an overlord watching your third, so a cannon rush at your third shouldn't be going on. You should have your lings toward your third immediately, so no cannon should get up at your third if Toss attempts to cannon it, as long as you have an overlord there and send at least 2 lings there immediately. You should probably submit a replay, and not one of you getting cannon rushed, although a pylon block or two is fine, and we can analyze where you macro screwed up. I'd strongly recommend you check out my ZvP guide, and check out the overlord timings Also check out my Overlord guide, on where to send overlords, as it sounds like you have some problems with where you send overlords. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
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BatesC
United States175 Posts
I know Symbol was doing it in the most recent season of Code S with great effect. | ||
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Moosegills
United States558 Posts
On August 23 2012 23:41 BatesC wrote: Has anyone got timings for the Stephano-style roach build WITH drops? Seems like it would make ZvP a free win matchup but I can't find any solid replays. I know Symbol was doing it in the most recent season of Code S with great effect. Just play the same way you would as if you were going to do normal max out, but as Lair starts don't spend gas on any roaches if possible to get drop and then later overlord speed. Make sure you get drop as soon as possible because it is quite a slow upgrade. If you are doing this style and the protoss doesn't take a third base, its probably best to cancel your drop and overlord speed in order to get more roaches out to defend whatever 2 base timing is coming at you. A nice little tip for doing this style. Lightly pressure(between 10-12 min) with roach ling as if you are doing a normal roach max, while trying not to commit to anything or lose units. This will hopefully force more sentries from the protoss which will be quite useless when you drop your roach ling army on him. If you execution is very clean, you should still be able to max about by 12 min and you can chose to drop right on his army, or do some nice multi prong aggression with drops. | ||
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BatesC
United States175 Posts
On August 24 2012 00:23 Moosegills wrote: Just play the same way you would as if you were going to do normal max out, but as Lair starts don't spend gas on any roaches if possible to get drop and then later overlord speed. Make sure you get drop as soon as possible because it is quite a slow upgrade. If you are doing this style and the protoss doesn't take a third base, its probably best to cancel your drop and overlord speed in order to get more roaches out to defend whatever 2 base timing is coming at you. A nice little tip for doing this style. Lightly pressure(between 10-12 min) with roach ling as if you are doing a normal roach max, while trying not to commit to anything or lose units. This will hopefully force more sentries from the protoss which will be quite useless when you drop your roach ling army on him. If you execution is very clean, you should still be able to max about by 12 min and you can chose to drop right on his army, or do some nice multi prong aggression with drops. Damn thanks man. | ||
Jowj
United States248 Posts
http://drop.sc/242607 Issues I've found: -Behind supply early on -Took 3rd without sufficient ling/baneling -Didn't scout opponents double evo; saw he was morphing an 'seer, saw he was on two base, sent OL to confirm mutas. -didn't drone up 3rd for literally forever. Ignoring his spire (which I do not think is what cost me the game) can you help me find and fix some of the deeper rooted flaws in my ZvZ? | ||
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BatesC
United States175 Posts
On August 24 2012 00:23 Moosegills wrote: Just play the same way you would as if you were going to do normal max out, but as Lair starts don't spend gas on any roaches if possible to get drop and then later overlord speed. Make sure you get drop as soon as possible because it is quite a slow upgrade. If you are doing this style and the protoss doesn't take a third base, its probably best to cancel your drop and overlord speed in order to get more roaches out to defend whatever 2 base timing is coming at you. A nice little tip for doing this style. Lightly pressure(between 10-12 min) with roach ling as if you are doing a normal roach max, while trying not to commit to anything or lose units. This will hopefully force more sentries from the protoss which will be quite useless when you drop your roach ling army on him. If you execution is very clean, you should still be able to max about by 12 min and you can chose to drop right on his army, or do some nice multi prong aggression with drops. Not only did this little tid bit of advice solve my ZvP issue it also got me promoted to (a confident) masters. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg155/scaled.php?server=155&filename=top2namasterrace.jpg&res=landing) Here's the replay if you or anyone else wants to critique. http://drop.sc/242619 | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On August 24 2012 01:13 Jowj wrote: Having trouble with ZvZ - after analysing several replays, I believe I'm doing somethign wrong macro wise in the first ~8 minutes of the game, but I'm having trouble identifying what specifically I should be working on (I have a lot of trouble with ZvZ in general). Here is an example replay: http://drop.sc/242607 Issues I've found: -Behind supply early on -Took 3rd without sufficient ling/baneling -Didn't scout opponents double evo; saw he was morphing an 'seer, saw he was on two base, sent OL to confirm mutas. -didn't drone up 3rd for literally forever. Ignoring his spire (which I do not think is what cost me the game) can you help me find and fix some of the deeper rooted flaws in my ZvZ? I'm not that high level, but I'll point out mistakes that I notice in the early to early-mid game. -Cut drones at 18 with your build, so that you can afford 2 queens and ling speed upon pool completion. You made 2 more drones, so your second queen was delayed significantly. This not only delays your drones, but also can lead to bad injects because of how off-sync they are! -You should make a spine at around the same time as the baneling nest to held defend vs ling/bane wars. I also recommend taking 1 guy off gas until you start your baneling nest -- it just gives you a lot more minerals that help get more drones. Not that big a deal, but it helps! -I like the fast +1 carapace, pretty nifty -After watching the whole game, I'm not sure I agree with the fast +1 carapace. It's awesome if you actually engage with lings, but you never really used it. So you hurt your economy for a fast upgrade that you basically never used. -He had a slight drone lead the whole game.This, your slightly off injects, and your supply blocks cost you the game. He simply macro'd better than you, and would've crushed you if he went for non-gimmicky play (spire cancel? lolwhat) You played pretty well, good micro and hotkey usage, just a few macro errors that added up imo! | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On August 24 2012 01:55 BatesC wrote: Not only did this little tid bit of advice solve my ZvP issue it also got me promoted to (a confident) masters. + Show Spoiler + Here's the replay if you or anyone else wants to critique. http://drop.sc/242619 Is it even possible for Protoss to defend this? I've won every game with it so one-sided it's crazy. Even if they skip sentries and go pure stalker/immortal it still wins. Seriously, ZvP is free wins now lol. | ||
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BatesC
United States175 Posts
On August 24 2012 08:16 Mavvie wrote: Is it even possible for Protoss to defend this? I've won every game with it so one-sided it's crazy. Even if they skip sentries and go pure stalker/immortal it still wins. Seriously, ZvP is free wins now lol. 100% win rate with it ZvP thus far too, it's been like 4 games though and I'm sure we'll meet someone who will crush it eventually. | ||
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Moosegills
United States558 Posts
On August 24 2012 08:24 BatesC wrote: 100% win rate with it ZvP thus far too, it's been like 4 games though and I'm sure we'll meet someone who will crush it eventually. From my experience (GM) if the protoss takes a passive third and the zerg executes correctly it seems like a >90% win rate. | ||
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poppenfrack
28 Posts
Are muta-builds just not viable in ZvZ, in that it build-order loses to a lot of stuff? Maybe I need to just spam roaches like everyone else seems to do. | ||
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FakePseudo
Belgium716 Posts
The problem is that a muta build is very easily scouted because of the four gasses and the static defenses that you will see 7/10 times pop up much too early. The best way to put it is too play a very aggressive early ling/bane play into muta transition, like you will many koreans do on stream. | ||
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