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On August 28 2012 09:06 whereismymind wrote:
If terran goes bio I go ling,baneling, muta.
But if terran opens mass helions, he is probably going mech.. should I switch to mass roach and try to drop into base to kill factories(if he goes mass hellion than I suppose he plays mech).
I don't have an answer vs mech.
Is this correct vs mech:
.early roaches, try to drop, and fast to broodlords(or ultralisk), infestor, ling?
thanks
I think Belial's guide covers two approaches to dealing with mech.
You either go mass roach (best with drops too) and try to kill him/keep trading until you eventually win, or
You go for a super fast hive, to get broodlords out in time for his maxed push.
You can't make roaches and be aggressive AND rely on broodlords to defend; if you're making roaches, you have to attack and trade. Or you can skip roaches (only make 10-20 to deal with hellions), and rush hive on 4-5 bases. Ultra/NP is rumoured to work, broodlords are more reliable. You can almost skip infestors vs mech; fungal sucks vs thors, infestors will never get near tanks, and vikings aren't in your typical mech ball. Infested Terrans and Neural are pretty good, but generally you want broodlords as fast as possible, adding infestors once you have ~10 broodlords imo.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong; I usually just go for mass roach drops and have never lost doing this, so I see no reason to change.
Just remember: simcity the SHIT out of every expansion, mass spines everywhere. Hellions are slippery motherfuckers who will kill 100-200 drones if you don't do this. Mech relies on hellions to kill drones to win the game.
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How the *hell* do you win lategame ZvP?
I feel like P only needs 3 bases and they can make an unbeatable ball of archon stalker colossus with a mothership over it, that decimates any Z composition ever no matter how many bases Z has. Couple that in with the fact that a competent P will warp in zealots and DT's everywhere lategame to deny expos, demand multitasking, and abuse the crap out of BL-infestor's immobility. I feel like I may as well just leave the game if P can get a third nexus up, as it's such an incredibly uphill battle from there no matter how far ahead Z is in the early and midgame, simply because P is virtually impossible to attack into, what with immortals, colossus, FF, and how slow hydras are. I basically feel like it's too difficult to kill toss during the early and midgame, and that the early and midgame don't matter as long as P can get a third up.
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In ZvZ, when do you get a spine, if at all? Assuming both players go econ builds (15hatch or 15pool). I don't really have a timing for it yet but I always feel safer with one than without one, but I don't know if the pros do it. I just sort of throw one down before I start teching.
In ZvT, how viable is it to go for the 2gas after 4 queens + 3rd style, as opposed to the 6queen style? It seems better to me, but only because it gets speed/roaches faster, so it feels a bit safer, although the creepspread will not be as good and the antiair won't be as prevalent.
Finally, how do you feel about the 2base muta or 2base infestor for ZvT and ZvP? I assume it's bad in ZvP, but 2base muta in ZvT seems nice considering the current standard builds from Terran. I mean, I'm starting to even go pool first in this matchup just because almost everyone blindly goes 1rax FE on lowground or 15CC on lowground and a pool first can really mess them up.
ZvZ - when the opponent could have baneling tech out vs when yours is out and if you plan to be aggressive. So if you go hatch first...
vs Gas/Pool openers / 1 base - immediately after 2 queens and after reactionary lings, made in main to then walk to low ground
vs Hatch Frst - ~28 supply, with bane nest
VS Pool/Hatch, this is the latest you would need bane/spine against, around 32-35 supply
Generally when the opponent could do a ling/bane attack, and around when you get your baneling nest. Around 30 supply, earlier if the opponent goes 1 base. It's made to counter banes, basically.
ZvT - why are you getting roaches? imo 6 queen is ridiculously strong economically, i dont know why you wouldnt go 6 queen, but 4 queen is fine too, it just means you are cutting corners. You'd have to make up for it with spines or earlier slowlings vs hellions. But 6 queens on their own isn't even enough against hellion/banshee, usually need 10+ lings from 60+ and some spores even still. I mean it's up to you, 4 queen, 5 queen, whatever. Less queens means you can get more gas though.
2 base muta builds are just so outdated these days in ZvT. Terrans who actually play correctly (which is rare, I know), as in go 1 rax FE/CC First into Third before 40 supply (like 1 rax FE double gas reactor fact hellion third starport banshee) will just stomp any sort of mass muta build, especially 2 base muta builds. By the time you have 20 mutas out, Terran will be ~140+ with a rine/tank army that will just smash a ling/bane/muta army of any size, and the only way to really deal with such a push is to either completely outplay the opponent with flanking/positioning (you should never engage these days without at least 1 flank, just no reason not to pre-emptively set up a flank these days), catch the opponent unsieged (like if they are dumb enough to step onto creep without sieging up first), or hive tech. And you can't really have hive tech in time against a macro terran.
But against a dumb ladder terran who does some sort of 2 base timing push or doesnt take a quick third or opens some sort of allinnish pressure, yea, muta builds are great. I dont know why you'd go 2 base muta when you could jsut go 3 base muta though. 2 base muta is kind of a cheese, it doesnt really appear that strong from what ive seen. You might kill 10 workers best case scenario but your econ is hurt even more and your tech even worse.
I mean at the lower levels any sort of muta play is fine, mutas are viable even at higher levels. Just at the high levels of play, a lot of people really don't like mutas anymore in ZvT/ZvP since people know how to react to them, fast third builds just shit on them, and hive tech is preferrable.
Should I just start spining my main ramp as soon as I see him move out? And maybe run drones away earlier so I can save more of them? This particular game was won I felt because of my opponent's mistakes, rather than me playing well. I probably should have a ton of lings ready to go for the basetrade, when all I had were mutas more or less.
What's your question? Sounds like you got it.
MECH?
Recently what I do against mech, is I'll scout to make sure they are going for a third or making thors (indicative of macro play, although if they are being defensive they can also go for tanks, but seeing the third should be obvious since no marines to kill overseer), and I won't even get roach speed. Mass roaches and trading is a great way to beat mech (personally I don't like roach drops, if terran goes for a 2 base all-in, it won't be out in time, and well I find straight up a-move with infestor or baneling support stronger and quicker if I want to go the agressive route). Simply fast track to hive.
But ultra/NP just rapes mech really hard, actually. It's kind of hard to gauge, but what I do against mech is I aim to get broodlords asap off 4 bases (i wont make many infestors at all, to start off with, and try not to make any roaches, instead relying on lots of queens, spines, and lings and a couple infestors to deal with hellion harass, I'm not afraid to put down 3 spines at my third as soon as it pops against mech, spines are 'free' in the scheme of things since I want to bank gas for quick hive). Then, if Terran is doing the sort of air style, like starts massing vikings and ravens, I'll switch to ultras really quickly. Ultras are actually really strong against mech.
I can't really say which is 'better', I feel like broodlords is a bit safer to go for first, but I'll definitely tech switch into ultras against a mech player who makes a ton of vikings or ravens, or after I kill all his tanks off but he's starting to get a strong anti-bl army going (vikings, high thor count, ravens). Really, if I see terran go heavy air and few tanks, ultras are great.
but yea check my guide. Very simply, get roaches in the midgame to prevent hellion harass, and fast track to broodlords. The sooner you realize he's going for a third, the quicker you can go for hive and more corners you can cut (no roach upgrades, no roach speed, less roaches and more spine/ling for defense instead, etc). I generally will still make sure to get a baneling nest and a roach warren though just in case he decides to do a 2 base all-in (speedroach/speedbane is just very strong if they do a 2 base all-in imo). In general though, broodlords rape mech.
how do you win lategame ZvP? I feel like P only needs 3 bases and they can make an unbeatable ball of archon stalker colossus with a mothership over it, that simply destroys any Z composition no matter how many bases Z has. Couple that in with the fact that a competent P will warp in zealots and DT's everywhere lategame to deny expos, demand multitasking, and abuse the crap out of BL-infestor's immobility. I feel like I may as well leave the game if P can get a third nexus up, as it's such an incredibly uphill battle from there no matter how much Z outplayed P in the early/midgame.
You feel that way, but that's probably a macro issue (sounds like it) because there is no way Toss can do that off 3 base (although yea, it does seem ridiculous how much they can get off just 2 or 3 bases ~_~). When Toss has 3+ colossus, you need to have broodlords out (arguably, ultras maybe, but hive basically). Ways to make sure your broods come out in time, is:
1. When Toss goes for his third, do this checklist: Fourth (with a fifth very shortly to follow), 100+ drones (what I'll do is take a fourth base, and just instantly saturate it with 24 drones with my larva, and bam, you should be around 100 drones now), which shortly will become ~20 spines at your fourth when around Hive is done or Toss starts getting colossus, Infestation pit, Hive-Spire, Corruptors when Toss pushes out or GS is half done. The mass spines, will buy time, and if he really pressure, spam IT, that will buy that extra 10-20 seconds you need to get those broodlords morphing, if not straight up kill his army with ling/infestor/spine/corruptor.
2. Cut corners. If Toss is going for a macro game, quick third, if I can figure it out early enough, I won't even make a roach warren, I won't get any roach upgrades. There is no reason to make roaches in a macro game ZvP. The only reason you make roaches in ZvP is for aggression, or defending a 2 base all-in. Otherwise ling/infestor should hold basic pressure from a 3 base toss. Even if Toss is on 2 base, you really don't make roaches until toss pushes out, and even then, you only need 10-20 roaches against the heaviest of Toss all-ins. You want to be much ling heavier. Lings are awesome, faster, and 'free' in the sense if Toss goes for a macro game, you have gas to easily get infestation pit, hive, etc. If you make 20+ roaches against a Toss who actually goes fast third, you are going to get steamrolled as your broodlords will be way too late (generally).
Check out my ZvP guide. There's 2 new replays I've posted of Extreme Lategame ZvP i think you'd really benefit in watching. I would recommend getting burrow/overlord speed in lategame too. Drop creep at every expo, so before you take it, you can throw down 3 spines and a spore so your morphing expo doesnt die to warp prism harass or DTs. Sim city things. Those 20 spines you made in the early lategame? Re-root them as your broodlord army gets bigger and you aren't as worried about a direct attack, and plant them at new expos and around your greater spire and hive as DT/warp prism harass gets to be a bigger threat. A common theme you'll see in these reps is that I will mass lings instead of roaches, and as soon as I identify macro play (or a stargate, stargate means you can get infestors in time even against 2 base all-in, or at least get an infestation pit thrown down and not die), and I won't get any hydras, I won't make any roaches, and I'll get broodlords in time. It's very easy to get broodlords in time if you don't spend any gas on roaches...
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038
Here's a recent game I played as well where Toss takes a million bases and I put a million spines up everywhere:
http://drop.sc/243976
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I have a sort of vague question.
When do you know that you can attack your opponent, with the intent to kill him?
I tend to follow "when ahead, get more ahead". And for me, that also implies "dont throw away your lead, by trying to kill your opponent". There are games though, were I feel I have an opening to actually just outright kill my opponent. I usually am to scared to seize such an oppertunity though. Slowly strangeling my opponent is fine by me, but sometimes I'd just like to seize the moment and kill them.
How do you identify such a moment?
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^ When I am maxed out on pure broodlord...
I'd say 95% of my wins have hive and broodlords (5% being people who leave after a failed all-in). My average gamelength according to sc2gears is over 25 minutes (that's including the odd 5 minute game or instant-leave).
Making units like roaches really hurts your hive timing. But you should always be maxed out on lings, since they are free in the sense they don't delay your tech, so if you ever have an opportunity, your ling heavy army should be able to end the game or do a ton of damage if an opportunity opens up.
Here's a recent game I played though, to let you know that what you are talking about is not just you. 41 minutes long. He does a really bad, late immortal/sentry all-in and I held easily with a threatening flank. Unfortunately I made the mistake of letting him retreat, so the game turned into a 41 minute turtlefest because it was Shakuras Plateau. I was able to deny his third forever and kill it, but eventually he just had enough immortals and sentries and colossus to take his third, and from there I literally had to let him be unbothered for 30 seconds for him to wall-off the connected 4th-5th bases and make the game go forever because he got a vortex and you can't bumrush a vortex ;/
http://drop.sc/244205
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Hey, I've been stuck in diamond since the league was first created. I have never really been close to moving up, but after a devastating 15 game losing streak I am very close to moving down. I would really like to become a master but I don't have the time that I used to. I am really interested in a paid coach, but I don't really need a big name just some high master that will sit down with me once a week or so and give me a hand for 10 or 15 bucks a session. Does anybody know a good candidate or are interested themselves? NA server.
-Gruntrush
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I want to discuss ling infestor into ultras in zvz.
I really hated zvz before I found this build because I thought roach wars were so boring. I like to play defensively/macro oriented and never really attack before hive tech unless I see a clear opening. I just felt like zvz didnt have a very good hive transition because you rely on ranged units in the midgame, but both hive tech units benefit from meelee ups. I tried the ling infestor style (following blade's guide) and instantly loved it because it solved all of these issues that I didnt like.
I am just wondering if it is still a viable strategy or if it has been "figured out" and should no longer be used. I havent seen any pros use it recently and im wondering if there is a reason for that. Also, in the comments for blade's guide chaos said that he thinks that this style cant really deal with mass mutas if theyre spread out with bane rain support. I posted a response, but I dont know how often people check there, so ill post it here too:
@chaos: So, your "counter" to this style is just to continually mass mutas? Wouldn't that response just fail if he reacts by just making the normal counter to mass mutas? I mean, there is a reason that pros dont do mass muta, and thats because there is a very good counter to it. It seems like if the ling/infestor player just built a spire of his own in reaction to mass mutas and built like 5 corruptors then your style would fail. The mutas wouldnt be able to take out the corruptors without severely clumping up, making them vulnerable to infestors, and the corruptors would also be able to shoo away the overlords with banelings inside. 5 queens could also function in a similar way if you dont want to invest/wait for a spire.
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http://drop.sc/244392
tt ZvT is always a blast, I actually hate having to win at hive. I get so impatient at how these guys can literally just sit in there base forever, the only aggressive move they do is dropping. He starts off the game by hiding an expansion (what the fuck), and eventually just turtles on 3 bases. I get impatient and lose my broodlord army to marines (again lol marines counter everything), then I continue to attack with broodlord/corruptor, couldn't find gas for infestors. Between vikings, tanks, and marines, he just steamrolls my "unbeatable" army again. I remax on ultras with some speedbanes, attack, and lose. I attacked here because I knew my economy was screwed by the BFH and drops everywhere, so I figured "fuck it let's go all-in"
Here some thors, tanks, and bio pockets just destroy any chance I have of winning. How the hell do you beat a turtle? I imagine it's even worse when they go for raven/BC. I can't engage because vikings outrange zerg air, and tanks outrange my infestors. I can never attack into him without major losses.
I think my macro was OK, I went for some big midgame muta/ling/bane aggression. Perhaps after winning the fight I should've attacked and tried to win there? I figured I'd just buy time for the "gglords" to win the game. Honestly, what could I have done better? My macro didn't cost me the game, my micro didn't cost me the game, the only real mistakes I think I made were:
1) No infestors...not really sure why I didn't
2) Bad drop/BFH defence. Gotta mass them spores. I figured I was miles ahead so why bother
3) Impatience attacking into tank lines
4) Not attacking his bottom right expand with my ultras
But honestly, am I supposed to wait until he mines out before ever engaging? I don't want every ZvT to go for 40+ minutes....whenever I go ultras first I usually can attack and flat out win, whenever I go broodlords I just lose. I actually have close to a 100% winrate with ultras, and close to 0% with broodlord/corruptor.
Thanks in advance!
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QUESTION
as a zerg playing zvt, do you think it is possible for zergs to stay on sling, bling, muta, as fxoleenock popularizes and uses very well in his zvt, or does it just become too inefficient in the late game as terran figures it out and changes their unit comp? and which unit comp would that be?
i just feel that hive tech BLs are too risky especially if the zerg and terran are even in econemy
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On August 29 2012 09:58 Mavvie wrote:http://drop.sc/244392tt ZvT is always a blast, I actually hate having to win at hive. I get so impatient at how these guys can literally just sit in there base forever, the only aggressive move they do is dropping. He starts off the game by hiding an expansion (what the fuck), and eventually just turtles on 3 bases. I get impatient and lose my broodlord army to marines (again lol marines counter everything), then I continue to attack with broodlord/corruptor, couldn't find gas for infestors. Between vikings, tanks, and marines, he just steamrolls my "unbeatable" army again. I remax on ultras with some speedbanes, attack, and lose. I attacked here because I knew my economy was screwed by the BFH and drops everywhere, so I figured "fuck it let's go all-in" Here some thors, tanks, and bio pockets just destroy any chance I have of winning. How the hell do you beat a turtle? I imagine it's even worse when they go for raven/BC. I can't engage because vikings outrange zerg air, and tanks outrange my infestors. I can never attack into him without major losses. I think my macro was OK, I went for some big midgame muta/ling/bane aggression. Perhaps after winning the fight I should've attacked and tried to win there? I figured I'd just buy time for the "gglords" to win the game. Honestly, what could I have done better? My macro didn't cost me the game, my micro didn't cost me the game, the only real mistakes I think I made were: 1) No infestors...not really sure why I didn't 2) Bad drop/BFH defence. Gotta mass them spores. I figured I was miles ahead so why bother 3) Impatience attacking into tank lines 4) Not attacking his bottom right expand with my ultras But honestly, am I supposed to wait until he mines out before ever engaging? I don't want every ZvT to go for 40+ minutes....whenever I go ultras first I usually can attack and flat out win, whenever I go broodlords I just lose. I actually have close to a 100% winrate with ultras, and close to 0% with broodlord/corruptor. Thanks in advance!
Ok when you go broodlord, you need to have other units. Either broodlord/infestor or at least have a lot of ling/baneling underneath to clear out marines if he doesn't have tanks (he didn't have tanks anymore at this point).
Apart from this your upgrades are insanely insanely late.
You maxed out at about 14 minutes, 200 supply vs 130. You chose to attack at about 19 minutes, 200 supply vs 170. and you almost won. You could have smashed him in that battle if you had spread out your units a bit more (coming from two sides ideally) and especially if your banelings had gotten into the fight before all your lings died. Imagine how much harder it would hit if you had done it against 130 supply of terran.
Here's my little bit of unconvential advice:
If you are going to max out before hive tech, upgrade ventral sacs. seriously, it is very good against a 3 base terran.
If you are going for a much faster hive, then you don't necessarily need it, but it is still valuable. You had more than enough money for it at any stage of the game. Drop a bunch of lings in his base, and THEN roll over his 3rd with your other units as he splits up. You might not break it, but you get much better trades than you would with a single attack.
You could have started it any time around the 13-14 minute mark.
also don't put all 140 of your zerglings on hold position when attacking scvs. Put 10-15 on hold in the mineral line, and let the rest actually kill something.
Actually, don't kill SCVs. he had 16 mineral patches on 3 bases, and many of them were just about depleted. He didn't need those SCVs. Kill units and buildings.
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EU Plat
I'm kind of stuck in Platinum league and seek for help. I have not played here very long but I feel kind of smashed when I start laddering now after a sort SC2 break. I would very much appreciate if someone could look at some of my replays and tell me what to focus on improving.
http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=7MMrm30v
Thanks alot! // Habbe
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On August 29 2012 10:24 Oboeman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 09:58 Mavvie wrote:http://drop.sc/244392tt ZvT is always a blast, I actually hate having to win at hive. I get so impatient at how these guys can literally just sit in there base forever, the only aggressive move they do is dropping. He starts off the game by hiding an expansion (what the fuck), and eventually just turtles on 3 bases. I get impatient and lose my broodlord army to marines (again lol marines counter everything), then I continue to attack with broodlord/corruptor, couldn't find gas for infestors. Between vikings, tanks, and marines, he just steamrolls my "unbeatable" army again. I remax on ultras with some speedbanes, attack, and lose. I attacked here because I knew my economy was screwed by the BFH and drops everywhere, so I figured "fuck it let's go all-in" Here some thors, tanks, and bio pockets just destroy any chance I have of winning. How the hell do you beat a turtle? I imagine it's even worse when they go for raven/BC. I can't engage because vikings outrange zerg air, and tanks outrange my infestors. I can never attack into him without major losses. I think my macro was OK, I went for some big midgame muta/ling/bane aggression. Perhaps after winning the fight I should've attacked and tried to win there? I figured I'd just buy time for the "gglords" to win the game. Honestly, what could I have done better? My macro didn't cost me the game, my micro didn't cost me the game, the only real mistakes I think I made were: 1) No infestors...not really sure why I didn't 2) Bad drop/BFH defence. Gotta mass them spores. I figured I was miles ahead so why bother 3) Impatience attacking into tank lines 4) Not attacking his bottom right expand with my ultras But honestly, am I supposed to wait until he mines out before ever engaging? I don't want every ZvT to go for 40+ minutes....whenever I go ultras first I usually can attack and flat out win, whenever I go broodlords I just lose. I actually have close to a 100% winrate with ultras, and close to 0% with broodlord/corruptor. Thanks in advance! Ok when you go broodlord, you need to have other units. Either broodlord/infestor or at least have a lot of ling/baneling underneath to clear out marines if he doesn't have tanks (he didn't have tanks anymore at this point). Apart from this your upgrades are insanely insanely late. You maxed out at about 14 minutes, 200 supply vs 130. You chose to attack at about 19 minutes, 200 supply vs 170. and you almost won. You could have smashed him in that battle if you had spread out your units a bit more (coming from two sides ideally) and especially if your banelings had gotten into the fight before all your lings died. Imagine how much harder it would hit if you had done it against 130 supply of terran. Here's my little bit of unconvential advice: If you are going to max out before hive tech, upgrade ventral sacs. seriously, it is very good against a 3 base terran. If you are going for a much faster hive, then you don't necessarily need it, but it is still valuable. You had more than enough money for it at any stage of the game. Drop a bunch of lings in his base, and THEN roll over his 3rd with your other units as he splits up. You might not break it, but you get much better trades than you would with a single attack. You could have started it any time around the 13-14 minute mark. also don't put all 140 of your zerglings on hold position when attacking scvs. Put 10-15 on hold in the mineral line, and let the rest actually kill something. Actually, don't kill SCVs. he had 16 mineral patches on 3 bases, and many of them were just about depleted. He didn't need those SCVs. Kill units and buildings.
Thanks for the reply.
Man, this map. I had no idea I had a 70 supply lead; all I knew was that he sim-citied perfectly and had tanks and turrets -- not something you really want to attack into. If I had killed his army with those 140 zerglings I would've won? I didn't realize he was so mined out...thought Terrans had unlimited money 
Ok, I'll be sure to morph banes. Again, bad scouting, I thought he had many tanks. And banelings don't like tanks. As I'm sure you know.
Meh I guess I was just too impatient; if I had made a spine wall for remaxing, and added in infestors + mass expanded I'm sure I could've taken the game. I really get frustrated in game 
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On August 29 2012 10:01 phantastron wrote:
QUESTION
as a zerg playing zvt, do you think it is possible for zergs to stay on sling, bling, muta, as fxoleenock popularizes and uses very well in his zvt, or does it just become too inefficient in the late game as terran figures it out and changes their unit comp? and which unit comp would that be?
i just feel that hive tech BLs are too risky especially if the zerg and terran are even in econemy
Well as Zerg you should strive to be ahaed in eco. Dont be afraid of going as high as a 100 drones in zvt.
Muta ling bling is awesome in the midgame, but just becomes to cost innefficient as the number of siege, marines, and medivacs rise. At some point you'll need to switch to infestor and hivetech.
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On August 28 2012 22:55 Belial88 wrote:^ When I am maxed out on pure broodlord... I'd say 95% of my wins have hive and broodlords (5% being people who leave after a failed all-in). My average gamelength according to sc2gears is over 25 minutes (that's including the odd 5 minute game or instant-leave). Making units like roaches really hurts your hive timing. But you should always be maxed out on lings, since they are free in the sense they don't delay your tech, so if you ever have an opportunity, your ling heavy army should be able to end the game or do a ton of damage if an opportunity opens up. Here's a recent game I played though, to let you know that what you are talking about is not just you. 41 minutes long. He does a really bad, late immortal/sentry all-in and I held easily with a threatening flank. Unfortunately I made the mistake of letting him retreat, so the game turned into a 41 minute turtlefest because it was Shakuras Plateau. I was able to deny his third forever and kill it, but eventually he just had enough immortals and sentries and colossus to take his third, and from there I literally had to let him be unbothered for 30 seconds for him to wall-off the connected 4th-5th bases and make the game go forever because he got a vortex and you can't bumrush a vortex ;/ http://drop.sc/244205
How do you de-max? At some point you'll have to make room for inferstors/hive. But if you get rid of all the lings at once, you're really open to an attack, rigtht?
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what a legitimate map vetos for zerg this season?
i only blocked tal darim so far. and antiga cause 4th base is far away.
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I need a build order for zerg, which starts with hatch first and when hatch finishes it is timed that I can make:
2 queens and speed upgrade for lings instantly
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On August 29 2012 21:11 haaz wrote:
I need a build order for zerg, which starts with hatch first and when hatch finishes it is timed that I can make:
2 queens and speed upgrade for lings instantly
That's impossibru. You can't get 2 queens AND speed with hatch first.
15 hatch 16 pool 17 lord gets you 2 queens when the hatch finishes.
Or you can go 15 hatch 16 gas 16 pool. That will get you 1 queen and speed when the hatch finishes, and then 1 more queen a bit later.
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On August 29 2012 14:57 gronnelg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 22:55 Belial88 wrote:^ When I am maxed out on pure broodlord... I'd say 95% of my wins have hive and broodlords (5% being people who leave after a failed all-in). My average gamelength according to sc2gears is over 25 minutes (that's including the odd 5 minute game or instant-leave). Making units like roaches really hurts your hive timing. But you should always be maxed out on lings, since they are free in the sense they don't delay your tech, so if you ever have an opportunity, your ling heavy army should be able to end the game or do a ton of damage if an opportunity opens up. Here's a recent game I played though, to let you know that what you are talking about is not just you. 41 minutes long. He does a really bad, late immortal/sentry all-in and I held easily with a threatening flank. Unfortunately I made the mistake of letting him retreat, so the game turned into a 41 minute turtlefest because it was Shakuras Plateau. I was able to deny his third forever and kill it, but eventually he just had enough immortals and sentries and colossus to take his third, and from there I literally had to let him be unbothered for 30 seconds for him to wall-off the connected 4th-5th bases and make the game go forever because he got a vortex and you can't bumrush a vortex ;/ http://drop.sc/244205 How do you de-max? At some point you'll have to make room for inferstors/hive. But if you get rid of all the lings at once, you're really open to an attack, rigtht?
Not really, since I usually will have a wall of spines.
I'll get rid of the lings cost efficiently, like do a runby or kill a bunch of his SCVs with hold position, or take down a few tanks with his splash. I'll also start preparing for the broodlord max well in advance. I mean you can see how I do it in this game - I use my roach/ling to constantly cancel his third while I fill up on infestors, and then eventually when I need to sac my entire main army, I fill up on pure corruptors, then just sent my roaches in to do some damage and draw his army back while morphing those corruptors into broods, which doesn't take long (in this particular game he wasn't moving out anytime soon so it wasn't a worry).
That's impossibru. You can't get 2 queens AND speed with hatch first.
15 hatch 16 pool 17 lord gets you 2 queens when the hatch finishes.
Or you can go 15 hatch 16 gas 16 pool. That will get you 1 queen and speed when the hatch finishes, and then 1 more queen a bit later.
Your getting speed basically when the hatch finishes though.
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EPT
