EPTbut anyways What I wanted to ask(this time around) is that whats currently the best styles to deal with the protoss 2 base all ins that are so common? like what are the timings the pushes hit at and things like that?
The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 364
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Zergrusher
United States562 Posts
but anyways What I wanted to ask(this time around) is that whats currently the best styles to deal with the protoss 2 base all ins that are so common? like what are the timings the pushes hit at and things like that? | ||
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phantastron
Canada21 Posts
On August 29 2012 14:54 gronnelg wrote: Well as Zerg you should strive to be ahaed in eco. Dont be afraid of going as high as a 100 drones in zvt. Muta ling bling is awesome in the midgame, but just becomes to cost innefficient as the number of siege, marines, and medivacs rise. At some point you'll need to switch to infestor and hivetech. MULES? Always in the late game terran should have 2x much econ than a zerg, especially if they sac most of their scvs for mass orbitals. 200 terran army vs 100 zerg army? come on let's have some better responses in this thread. /no offence | ||
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sick_transit
United States195 Posts
I'm not posting this as a replay analysis because I'm sure there are lots of other reasons I ultimately lost having to do with bad macro, scouting, etc., but even if I'd played perfectly I wouldn't have known the right tech. Thanks in advance to anyone with advice. Edit: It was a 3 gate build not a 4 gate build | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
but anyways What I wanted to ask(this time around) is that whats currently the best styles to deal with the protoss 2 base all ins that are so common? like what are the timings the pushes hit at and things like that? Roach/ling. Mutas if he's doing something involving a shitton of tech and isn't going to hit before 11:00 (maybe 10:00, i dont know if everyone agrees that mutas can be used against immortal/sentry and quite frankly I wouldn't say Im' 100% sure either). What is the correct tech choice to deal with 4-gate blink stalker aggression off one base? I played a game recently where the protoss blocked my natural, causing the natural to be delayed. (I started my third but then cancelled when I saw he hadn't expanded.) I managed to get two bases up but I wasn't sure what tech to go into so I stayed on roach/ling/spine probably way too long. Is the right response infestors? Hydras? Both? I'm not posting this as a replay analysis because I'm sure there are lots of other reasons I ultimately lost having to do with bad macro, scouting, etc., but even if I'd played perfectly I wouldn't have known the right tech. Thanks in advance to anyone with advice. Edit: It was a 3 gate build not a 4 gate build roach/ling. Roach/ling is always the best way to deal with any sort of toss all-in. This is because when playing standard fast third, you can't really rely on tech, since you are sacrificing tech in favor of econ. Now, if you go 2 base lair, yea, you can pick and choose whatever tech you want, but there's problems with going 2 base lair. Similarly, when fighting a 1 base build, you want roach/ling because you are on 2 bases vs it, and again, sacrificing tech in favor of econ. Ohh, the days of 1 base hydra to 'counter' 4 gate were just so terrible... Against a 1 base blink build.... roach/ling! Against any 1 base build - roach/ling. Against any 2 base build - roach/ling. Roach/ling? Roach/ling! Zerg is a fun and dynamic race. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I've been toying around with not drone scouting in ZvP. I got proxy gated twice, out of like 4 times this entire season, in a single session (damn playing at noon is so damn cheesy...). I'm thinking of not drone scouting on 2 player maps, and drone scouting only on 4 player maps, including maps like Shakuras. Basically, any map where the overlord can get to their natural by like, 16 supply. I mean, I could have held that proxy double gate inside my base on shakuras if I had drone scouted -_- I threw up the 2 spines when I saw his empty ramp/natural but I would have definitely had them in time if I drone scouted. | ||
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AndySCWilson
43 Posts
-Andy | ||
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KaraganBoobSsauce
Canada8 Posts
 anyways ive had this game for 2 years and 300 games played and im still in bronze and im still really bad. sure i can win games with roach rush but i want to be actually good and not that i won on a rush so pretty much im playing and i send in my roaches ( i usually always mass roach, and get all upgrades) i go into his base and then get oblitereated by siege tanks, then run out and burrow. i make infestors and have about 8 of them. spew out their stuff and they all get obliterated by seige tanks even when im coming in with roach back up. he really had this way of hiding his seige tanks behind buildings to make it tough to kill them too so then he went air and just owned me with like 20 of those big ass ships. i had a few mutalisks and anti airs. any advice plz? i feel so garb sauce. and i really hate hydras because they die so easily oh yea and i dont really scout because my overlords or drones would just get owned | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
On August 30 2012 10:49 Belial88 wrote: Do you guys drone scout in ZvP? I've been toying around with not drone scouting in ZvP. I got proxy gated twice, out of like 4 times this entire season, in a single session (damn playing at noon is so damn cheesy...). I'm thinking of not drone scouting on 2 player maps, and drone scouting only on 4 player maps, including maps like Shakuras. Basically, any map where the overlord can get to their natural by like, 16 supply. I mean, I could have held that proxy double gate inside my base on shakuras if I had drone scouted -_- I threw up the 2 spines when I saw his empty ramp/natural but I would have definitely had them in time if I drone scouted. What if you just check your own base if his probe has a funny scout timing? Or be a little bit more thorough with overlord #2 to pass over possible proxy locations or something. I don't know if you even need to do anything different to hold a proxy gate with a 15 pool, do you? I suppose there still is merit to scouting on 4 player maps though, so you know if you can take your 3rd before your natural etc, or if you need to all in them because of bad spawns. | ||
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Moosegills
United States558 Posts
On August 30 2012 10:49 Belial88 wrote: Do you guys drone scout in ZvP? I've been toying around with not drone scouting in ZvP. I got proxy gated twice, out of like 4 times this entire season, in a single session (damn playing at noon is so damn cheesy...). I'm thinking of not drone scouting on 2 player maps, and drone scouting only on 4 player maps, including maps like Shakuras. Basically, any map where the overlord can get to their natural by like, 16 supply. I mean, I could have held that proxy double gate inside my base on shakuras if I had drone scouted -_- I threw up the 2 spines when I saw his empty ramp/natural but I would have definitely had them in time if I drone scouted. For sure don't drone scout on 2 player maps (I definitely wouldn't on Shakuras either), you should be able to figure out by the toss scout timing if they aren't pylon scouting. Then if they don't pylon scout you can get a little worried about proxies etc and scout around you base a bit. On 4 player maps I just recently stopped scouting on 4 player maps. One of the reasons that attributed to me stopping drone scouting is the build I do takes an early gas vs FFE like I would if they 1 based or went gate nexus so the information isn't that important for me to get at an early time. As long as you send both your 2 initial overlords scouting for their base you should be able to find them in time on most maps (except condemned ridge and GSL Whirlwind maybe). Also 99% of the time their is no chance for proxies on 4 player maps so you can rule that out of the question. It more just becomes are they doing a FFE or Gate Nexus - which I am seeing more and more these days. | ||
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Moosegills
United States558 Posts
On August 30 2012 09:12 sick_transit wrote: What is the correct tech choice to deal with 4-gate blink stalker aggression off one base? I played a game recently where the protoss blocked my natural, causing the natural to be delayed. (I started my third but then cancelled when I saw he hadn't expanded.) I managed to get two bases up but I wasn't sure what tech to go into so I stayed on roach/ling/spine probably way too long. Is the right response infestors? Hydras? Both? I'm not posting this as a replay analysis because I'm sure there are lots of other reasons I ultimately lost having to do with bad macro, scouting, etc., but even if I'd played perfectly I wouldn't have known the right tech. Thanks in advance to anyone with advice. Edit: It was a 3 gate build not a 4 gate build Unless their is some super abusable spot where they can blink back from high ground to low ground, mass ling (with flanks!) along with 3 or so spine support should be able to stop it quite easily. Just make sure you are on your injects if you are massing lings. | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
On August 30 2012 09:12 sick_transit wrote: What is the correct tech choice to deal with 4-gate blink stalker aggression off one base? I played a game recently where the protoss blocked my natural, causing the natural to be delayed. (I started my third but then cancelled when I saw he hadn't expanded.) I managed to get two bases up but I wasn't sure what tech to go into so I stayed on roach/ling/spine probably way too long. Is the right response infestors? Hydras? Both? I'm not posting this as a replay analysis because I'm sure there are lots of other reasons I ultimately lost having to do with bad macro, scouting, etc., but even if I'd played perfectly I wouldn't have known the right tech. Thanks in advance to anyone with advice. Edit: It was a 3 gate build not a 4 gate build Don't try to tech against a one base opponent. It hurts your drone count too much. Pull drones off gas after speed for a few rounds of drones (or lings if he is already being aggressive), and put them back on, but stay on only one gas, and limit your teching to what you can afford on one gas. You may be able to start working your way towards lair eventually, or maybe +1 attack, but stick to low tech. queens, spines, roaches, and lings. mainly just lots of lings. The same applies for every protoss 1 base all-in, whether it is 4gate or the immortal warp prism one, or even something crazy like stargate or colossus. Against blinkstalker, it's okay to have a few roaches to serve as an anchor, but you are going to be making almost entirely zerglings. | ||
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BatesC
United States175 Posts
Here are two games where I open my typical mutalisk style, I feel like I'm doing everything as planned, except for winning. No matter how big an advantage I get the Terran player always comes back. http://drop.sc/244667 http://drop.sc/244668 These two are just brief examples of what is an extremely common theme. Is there something i'm specifically doing wrong to not be able to win? Normally I've been able to analyze my error, but every ZvT over the past week has been like this and I don't understand why. | ||
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sick_transit
United States195 Posts
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734pot
Australia294 Posts
On August 30 2012 10:49 Belial88 wrote: Do you guys drone scout in ZvP? I've been toying around with not drone scouting in ZvP. I got proxy gated twice, out of like 4 times this entire season, in a single session (damn playing at noon is so damn cheesy...). I'm thinking of not drone scouting on 2 player maps, and drone scouting only on 4 player maps, including maps like Shakuras. Basically, any map where the overlord can get to their natural by like, 16 supply. I mean, I could have held that proxy double gate inside my base on shakuras if I had drone scouted -_- I threw up the 2 spines when I saw his empty ramp/natural but I would have definitely had them in time if I drone scouted. I drone scout on 4 player maps mainly because not everyone I play forge expands. Though there is the benefit of blocking the nexus for a bit or evo chamber blocking the wall off so that you can get lings in, Nerchio seems to attempt this sort of thing nearly every ZvP (at least at HSC V he did). It is also somewhat useful for spotting a bad wall off early and responding with a baneling bust, this has yielded me a lot of easy wins :D | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I used to drone scout every ZvP, and then patrol the drone in his main so I could force him to make his tech in the nat, or, I'd know where his pylons were for an overlord sac into the main, although the drone won't die until very very late so usually he has to plant tech in nat. But as I got better at scouting, I feel like the drone scout really doesn't tell me anything that overlord sac's can't tell me. But I certainly don't keep the drone in their nat. What I usually do now is attempt to block nexus first, and then simply just go home. If the toss pulls 2 probes I'll just send him home immediately though, which is more often than not. Thanks for the reply though, yea, i'll stop drone scouting on 2 player maps. anyways ive had this game for 2 years and 300 games played and im still in bronze and im still really bad. sure i can win games with roach rush but i want to be actually good and not that i won on a rush 300 games is nothing. Bronze is also huge, it's larger than the gap between Silver to Diamond. So don't worry, I'm pretty sure you've actually progressed a ton, just your league icon hasn't changed. Don't worry about your league, it really doesn't mean anything. All everyone sees is "Masters or Not Masters" since there is a huge difference between Masters and below, and people who've played this game enough will always be masters (although even low masters is much lower than mid+ masters, and low masters and below is populated by a fuckton of people). Once you have around 2k games, you will definitely be masters. Probably 1k, actually, but I'll say 2k just to be safe. You should play a lot more if you want to rank up though, 300 games is nothing. 300 games in 2 years means you play a little more than once every 3 days... Anyone would literally get worse and worse if that's how much they played. You need to play like 2 games a day at least just to maybe maintain your skill... maybe not, like 2-3 games is warm-up. You are right where you should be if you only played 300 games though. Go check out the Masters leagues, just next time you see a masters, check out his division. Or your division, for that matter, or a diamond, or silver. You'll see everyone has like 200+ games just this season. Don't mass roaches. They are terrible units and it's really all-in. idra made a really cool statement back when SC2 first got released, when he said "you should never make roaches, lings are always better, people who make roaches just make them because they are bad and they are easier to use and they think they are the same as lings but stronger' or something to that effect, and they are totally different units. Roaches cost gas, gas means you can't tech up, they are also weaker in a lot of fights, lings are more effective against everything but archons and zealots and HT, that's it really. Against Terran you should never make roaches, only make roaches if you plan to all-in (which it sounds like you do a lot, that's why you aren't getting better btw), against double factory hellion openers, or against mech. Really focus on ling/bane against Terran. Check out the guides in my profile, and the reps included, on how to play... your games should look somewhat similar in structure, gameplay, and overall plan and unit composition as pro games do. I know you can't micro or macro, but you can take 3 bases vs FFE, et cetera. You should always scout. Drone scout happens when there's nothing out on the field yet.... Overlords should always be out, they can't get killed or 'owned' until things like vikings or void rays come out? Which won't come out for a long time. That's why you lose. That comment doesn't even make sense. That's why you lose. What if you just check your own base if his probe has a funny scout timing? Or be a little bit more thorough with overlord #2 to pass over possible proxy locations or something. I don't know if you even need to do anything different to hold a proxy gate with a 15 pool, do you? Way too many spots to hide things, if I checked everywhere on certain maps I wouldn't know what's up O_O. Proxy 2 gate is super easy to stop. Oh his base is empty, just make 2 spines in my mineral line, take my natural and a gas, ezpz. It's just when I don't drone scout on 4 player maps I run the risk of not knowing to throw up 2 spines and then zealots run in when if I had drone scouted, it would have been easy to stop, even if he made the gates inside my base. It's literally the only times I ever lost to proxy gate. So I will just drone scout on 4 player/multispawn maps. I definitely don't early gas though. I don't see how you could possibly stop a proxy doublegate if you don't know it's coming though... I feel like the only way to stop it is if your overlord sees an empty base in time (2 player maps), or you drone scout. I knew I was drone scouting for a reason. | ||
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734pot
Australia294 Posts
On August 30 2012 13:51 Belial88 wrote: ^ What league do you play at? What exactly is a bad wall-off? Won't your overlord see if he has a bad wall-off or not? By the time Toss throws down his core, you've already thrown down your third (ie didnt get gas yet) so how can you reactively bane bust? Do you just keep the drone in his base? I only play at a diamond level, so I would take what I say with a grain of salt. If I only overlord scout sometimes its too late to get gas reactively (~21 supply). By bad wall off I mean a wall off with a pylon, which isn't exactly bad I guess, just more susceptible to baneling busts. To be honest I wouldn't drone scout purely for this information, its just a bonus to my normal drone scout for the purpose of seeing their opening. | ||
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hellokitty[hk]
United States1309 Posts
Plop Yummy mushy creep! Mmmmmmm a soft, moist creep makes a drone happy! Yay happy drone! | ||
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gronnelg
Norway354 Posts
On August 30 2012 11:46 KaraganBoobSsauce wrote: even tho i play zerg this is kinda just a general issue of me being total shit but i cant make new topic for 3 dasys anyways ive had this game for 2 years and 300 games played and im still in bronze and im still really bad. sure i can win games with roach rush but i want to be actually good and not that i won on a rush so pretty much im playing and i send in my roaches ( i usually always mass roach, and get all upgrades) i go into his base and then get oblitereated by siege tanks, then run out and burrow. i make infestors and have about 8 of them. spew out their stuff and they all get obliterated by seige tanks even when im coming in with roach back up. he really had this way of hiding his seige tanks behind buildings to make it tough to kill them too so then he went air and just owned me with like 20 of those big ass ships. i had a few mutalisks and anti airs. any advice plz? i feel so garb sauce. and i really hate hydras because they die so easily oh yea and i dont really scout because my overlords or drones would just get owned Hey man. If you're in bronze, then you're having a hard time with economy. Check this out: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=330787 | ||
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BatesC
United States175 Posts
On August 30 2012 12:44 BatesC wrote: I can't seem to beat Terran at all, lings just don't do any damage and our specialty units are worthless (Infestor/muta) Here are two games where I open my typical mutalisk style, I feel like I'm doing everything as planned, except for winning. No matter how big an advantage I get the Terran player always comes back. http://drop.sc/244667 http://drop.sc/244668 These two are just brief examples of what is an extremely common theme. Is there something i'm specifically doing wrong to not be able to win? Normally I've been able to analyze my error, but every ZvT over the past week has been like this and I don't understand why. Turns out if I just make units I win Ignore this lol | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
Matchup in question: ZvP from Z's view Build being used by Z: 3 base macro (6 min 2 gas 6:40 warren approx. 7:00 evo and 8 min 2 more gas) Build being used by P: Sentry ff defense into 7:15 third base with gateway wall-off on both ramps Timing pushes I've been losing to: 14:00-14:30 mass immortal/sentry/stalker/3-4collossi ball 16:00-17:00 massive deathball of various compositions What response I chose: Fast 4th and 5th with gasses, 12:30 - 13:00 spinewall and 14min GS rush. Map being played on: Cloud Kingdom WCS or LE Why I've been losing: I simply can't keep all my expos alive. Between the main army with a mothership and mass robo units (and few gate and stargate units). I've been told there's a way to break 3 fast bases a lot of times but almost everyone that said that's a viable strategy also said that breaking a properly-sim-citied P on CK is virtually impossible just like on Entombed. I'm wondering if any really high masters zerg or GM zergs know if there's a particular way to position BL/festor/spines so they can't keep using random warp prism warp-ins to kill off tech/bases. I use so many drones making the 20+ spines in the middle, I rarely if ever have any resources left to make static defenses at the 2-3 fringe expos I take. Just stopping that mothership push in the middle takes everything I have. If I spare any units to deal with say 8-10 warping zealots in an expo or 3-4 dts (even worse), I will weaken in the middle and they just push me. Usually in BL/festor I sort of hit a point where I stabilize, and I'm able to keep making 4-6 spines and then replacing the workers as I VERY VERY slowly inch forward with spinewall/BL/festor/Corruptor until they literally have no map left. On Cloud Kingdom and sometimes on Entombed, I have a great deal of trouble with these 3 base pushes. I'd get into immo/sentry on Cloud too but I can actually manage occasional wins vs the standard 2 or 3 immortal sentry push timings. I haven't managed ANY wins vs really fast 3 base toss on this map. Other maps are not as much of an issue because of how your bases and creep spread get arranged nicely. This map, its a nightmare with all the ramps and high/low ground problems. tl;dr How to use BL/festor or position reinforcements on high level ZvP on Cloud Kingdom (or Entombed Valley) so expos don't keep dying and thus losing mining. | ||
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