EPTWhen I go 14 pool, 16 hatch and afterwards is at 15 supply... What do I do from then normally?
15 Worker
16 Queen
18 Overlord?
15 Worker
16 Ling
17 Overlord
17 Drone
18 Queen?
Or?
I am often confused
When do I do what? And what are the advantages?The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 366
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eXeel
Denmark62 Posts
When I go 14 pool, 16 hatch and afterwards is at 15 supply... What do I do from then normally? 15 Worker 16 Queen 18 Overlord? 15 Worker 16 Ling 17 Overlord 17 Drone 18 Queen? Or? I am often confused When do I do what? And what are the advantages? | ||
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pqzeus
13 Posts
I'll try it nevertheless. Generally speaking, if you go for an economic focus, you prioritize the queen and if you want to defend against a rush / go early pressure you build lings with a queen right after the overlord pops. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I get where you are coming from. But even if I concede for the sake of furthering the discussion that forge first is indeed an auto-loss against an early cannon rush, going Nexus-Forge delays the forge for long enough that the delay of the pool to cancel out. 15 hatch 15 pool gets the pool down about a minute later than a regular 15 pool, the trade off is roughly the same for protoss but you'll have 3 more larvae than a 15 pool opening would have in the long run. Of course. If Toss is going Nexus First, it'd be nice if you could go hatch first. But this isn't really possible since Toss will probe block your natural. Maybe on certain spawns you can do it, but otherwise you are just hoping to get lucky. The reason why I don't think 10 drone scouting in ZvP is worth it, whereas in ZvZ I think it is, is because the majority of Toss go forge first, not nexus first, and because even if they go nexus first, they will still block you from going hatch first. 10 drone scout, you see it's nexus first, oops, you can't go hatch first because of a block, guess you'll just have to go 15 pool like you would have done if you were playing blind anyways. Compared to just straight up cannon rushes, gateway -> forge cannon rushes are much easier to deal with and much more all in. The delay is long enough that if we consider a decent map size the zealot won't be there when the cannons go up anyway, you won't really have to deal with him until later when your pool is about to finish. yea maybe, I can't comment too much on it because I don't have much experience, and this sort of style/play/response is old now. This is going off what some people have said at much higher levels though, although there were a couple pro games where this occurred (crossfire ZvP where this happened being the most prime example). monk said he doesn't think it's an autoloss, but I've seen some gm's and pros say it is. That was a while ago too. I don't really care to argue the gateway vs hatch first thing though, i'm sure micro vs cannon rushes and such is a lot better these days and it's been a while. It'd be interesting to see it tested, i guess. But against a forge first, hatch first will lose. Against a nexus first, you'd ideally want a hatch first, but it's not really going to happen with the 9 probe scout. on 4 player maps it's just luck to get the hatch first, but i dont think it's much different, toss are going to send 2 probes on 4 player maps so they'll be in time to block usually. | ||
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blug
Australia623 Posts
On September 01 2012 22:08 eXeel wrote: I have an early build question: When I go 14 pool, 16 hatch and afterwards is at 15 supply... What do I do from then normally? 15 Worker 16 Queen 18 Overlord? 15 Worker 16 Ling 17 Overlord 17 Drone 18 Queen? Or? I am often confused When do I do what? And what are the advantages?It's preference but normally you want to get the queen our as early as possible. Getting supply blocked ay 18 isn't the worst thing in the world if it's for a couple of seconds since you build up the larvae, however the issue lies in that the drones that you don't make with that larvae won't spawn for an extra couple of seconds thus less mining time. Also I feel getting supply blocked that prevents a queen popping out screws you up quite a bit as well. A trick I use if I get supply blocked at 18 supply is I'll do the extractor trick to start my queen then cancel the extractors. The queen will continue building even though you are above the supply cap. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On September 01 2012 22:08 eXeel wrote: I have an early build question: When I go 14 pool, 16 hatch and afterwards is at 15 supply... What do I do from then normally? 15 Worker 16 Queen 18 Overlord? 15 Worker 16 Ling 17 Overlord 17 Drone 18 Queen? Or? I am often confused When do I do what? And what are the advantages?Neither  Also, 15 pool is probably better economically, as with worker pairing the timings actually line up perfectly. You can still do a 14 pool, but you won't make anything for a few seconds. 15 pool 16 hatch 15 overlord 15 queen 17 ling 18+ drones unless you have to. My question is about this in ZvZ. People talk about 15p/16h/17g... Is that the build I mentioned, but gas after queen? I think you could afford queen->overlord->gas-> 2 pairs of lings or 2 drones.... | ||
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syriuszonito
Poland332 Posts
On September 01 2012 23:33 Mavvie wrote: Neither Also, 15 pool is probably better economically, as with worker pairing the timings actually line up perfectly. You can still do a 14 pool, but you won't make anything for a few seconds. 15 pool 16 hatch 15 overlord 15 queen 17 ling 18+ drones unless you have to. My question is about this in ZvZ. People talk about 15p/16h/17g... Is that the build I mentioned, but gas after queen? I think you could afford queen->overlord->gas-> 2 pairs of lings or 2 drones.... Yes, thats the build for 15p/16h zvz as well (with gas after queen) | ||
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Xonix
225 Posts
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envisioN .
United States552 Posts
On September 02 2012 01:13 Xonix wrote: Guys in ZvT vs a terran that cc first then walled off... how do you determine his next tech so early on in the game (more rax, hellions etc) Sacrificing a overlord so early in the game doesn't seem right and would only catch part of his tech Poking at the front with zerglings to try to see his army composition will give you an idea for what his tech is, but sacrificing an overlord around 6 minutes is also viable. Otherwise, get a few spines, speedlings a baneling nest to prepare for marines or hellions, and if you see neither of those by 8 minutes or so, put down some spores | ||
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Xonix
225 Posts
On September 02 2012 01:16 envisioN . wrote: Poking at the front with zerglings to try to see his army composition will give you an idea for what his tech is, but sacrificing an overlord around 6 minutes is also viable. Otherwise, get a few spines, speedlings a baneling nest to prepare for marines or hellions, and if you see neither of those by 8 minutes or so, put down some spores See I usually do the basic 4 queen opener so I can hold off hellions pretty easily but poking with lings to determine his marine count to determine his tech? or maybe i'll just suck it up and send a overlord in at 6 | ||
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blug
Australia623 Posts
On September 02 2012 01:20 Xonix wrote: See I usually do the basic 4 queen opener so I can hold off hellions pretty easily but poking with lings to determine his marine count to determine his tech? or maybe i'll just suck it up and send a overlord in at 6 I always send an overlord at 6-7 minutes. I really feel like terran going these new blue flame hellion openers that you have to get a roach warren to defend it thus you need to scout it. | ||
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eXeel
Denmark62 Posts
On September 01 2012 22:26 pqzeus wrote: Hey eXeel, please provide us with the matchup you have in mind. I'll try it nevertheless. Generally speaking, if you go for an economic focus, you prioritize the queen and if you want to defend against a rush / go early pressure you build lings with a queen right after the overlord pops. I wasn't asking for a specific matchup, since I lacked any idea in all of the matchups On September 01 2012 23:33 Mavvie wrote: Neither Also, 15 pool is probably better economically, as with worker pairing the timings actually line up perfectly. You can still do a 14 pool, but you won't make anything for a few seconds. 15 pool 16 hatch 15 overlord 15 queen 17 ling 18+ drones unless you have to. My question is about this in ZvZ. People talk about 15p/16h/17g... Is that the build I mentioned, but gas after queen? I think you could afford queen->overlord->gas-> 2 pairs of lings or 2 drones.... Thank you, hope I'll be just as able to survive early pools with the 15 pool Will try to practise this (and the ZvZ answer you got from ther other person). | ||
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SnowZi
Croatia16 Posts
How do I beat hellion banshee into mech. This is what 90 % of the terran does nowdays,and I just can't get any answer to it... I would prefer someone high above me to answer. | ||
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pAnatiC
Germany123 Posts
Recently TL released a ReplayPack of TLO. Standard 4 Queen opening - when 3rd/4th pop, 2 Gas - Roachwarren - Lingspeed - and continue producing queens. Then he will attack with like 10 roaches - zergling and 6-8 queens. the roaces will live for ever with transfuse, you r safe against banshee. Even against Cloak it was successful. Replay: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/10643056/Starcraft Replays/1v1 ZvT 11-04 pAnatiC Provieh .SC2Replay Whats you opinion to this attack? - Sure my game wasnt gr8, cause i havent played it b4. But with faster Lair => Overseer + Muta transition it seems quite strong against the acutal standard-openings. ^ @Mech: I hate lategame Mech,.. Brutlords against 15-20 vikings are annoying.. They you have to much corrupter or to much bl.. I usually play it with maaaaaaaass dropps here there and everywhere, just keep him moving. Usually against many Tanks: Dropps + Burrow Against Thor: Neutral Parasite is gr8 ) | ||
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The Eskimo
United States21 Posts
I'm a masters protoss, who is going to try to get back into sc2 by raceswapping. I want to learn some basic openers and learn zerg proficiently, and have no idea where to start. Anyone masters+ could show me some or toss some my way? | ||
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pAnatiC
Germany123 Posts
On September 02 2012 07:46 The Eskimo wrote: Hi. I'm a masters protoss, who is going to try to get back into sc2 by raceswapping. I want to learn some basic openers and learn zerg proficiently, and have no idea where to start. Anyone masters+ could show me some or toss some my way? Guess Standard-Openings are: ZvZ: 14 gas - 14 pool - ~17-20 Hatch - Some people let gas-drone in for faster Baneling Nest - Some just 1 15 Hatch - 14 pool... Early Pool.. Quite different. In zvz there is no BO.. Cause so many shit can happen because you just lost 20 lings to 2 baneling. Either fast roach+upgrades.. muta into 3rd.. infestor.. ultralisks r strong too.. But overall, this matchup is just pure chaos and fun =)) ZvT: 15 hatch - 14/15/16 pool, if you wanna be safe 14 - if you know it should be 1rax xpand or something like this, you can go 16 - then 4-6 queens für creepspread + safe against banshee/helion. Feel free to drone and tech =) ZvP: 15 pool - 15-17 Hatch - 21-23 hatch.. Can be delayed because of pylon block. Then Drone like crazy.. Sacrifice Overlord ~6min - Either go 2 Gas ~5:30-6 or 3 Gas ~6:30-7.. Most games will end up with a sentry immortal allin.. See 3rd/4th Gas going down at ~6.30 will most likly be this build.. I usually go straight to basetrade with mass spines | ||
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Guamshin
Netherlands295 Posts
On September 02 2012 08:03 pAnatiC wrote: Guess Standard-Openings are: ZvZ: 14 gas - 14 pool - ~17-20 Hatch - Some people let gas-drone in for faster Baneling Nest - Some just 1 15 Hatch - 14 pool... Early Pool.. Quite different. In zvz there is no BO.. Cause so many shit can happen because you just lost 20 lings to 2 baneling. Either fast roach+upgrades.. muta into 3rd.. infestor.. ultralisks r strong too.. But overall, this matchup is just pure chaos and fun =)) ZvT: 15 hatch - 14/15/16 pool, if you wanna be safe 14 - if you know it should be 1rax xpand or something like this, you can go 16 - then 4-6 queens für creepspread + safe against banshee/helion. Feel free to drone and tech =) ZvP: 15 pool - 15-17 Hatch - 21-23 hatch.. Can be delayed because of pylon block. Then Drone like crazy.. Sacrifice Overlord ~6min - Either go 2 Gas ~5:30-6 or 3 Gas ~6:30-7.. Most games will end up with a sentry immortal allin.. See 3rd/4th Gas going down at ~6.30 will most likly be this build.. I usually go straight to basetrade with mass spines In ZvZ most people go hatch first nowadays, gas first builds are very uncommon. That ZvP one is undetailed but most people go 15 pool 16 hatch, 15 overlord, 2-4 lings, 3rd hatch at 21 then just drone. They send in 1 or 2 (whatever you prefer) overlords around 6:15 (depending how close they are). You take your gas at 6:15 (2) or 3 gas at 6:30. Unless you know he's not gonna do some pressure you make your roach warren at 6:45 to be safe and an evo too.Other gasses you can take when a base has 16 drones(you make 2 gas). Only do that though when you are making drones. | ||
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Guamshin
Netherlands295 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Guys in ZvT vs a terran that cc first then walled off... how do you determine his next tech so early on in the game (more rax, hellions etc) Sacrificing a overlord so early in the game doesn't seem right and would only catch part of his tech I mean you don't need to know his immediate tech choice right away. Just sac an overlord, like the ZvT guide linked in my profile says, at about 40+/7:00+. He might take double gas and get a fact out, but a single fact doesnt tell you anything, but a starport after fact might. He can't really make banshees before standard timing, cc firs or not. I don't really understand why you think CC first is any different than any other opening, really. One thing you can do,when drone scouting (and overlord scouting, if you see CC first you can just float into his main), is see if he makes 2xRax or 1 rax. If he goes 1 rax, he's teching obviously. If he goes 2 rax, he still might tech, but just something to note for. Then simply stay in range of his gas, terran don't really take a single gas in their main, they usually take 2xgas to indicate teching up to at least factory. And just sac an overlord like you would normally. CC First doesn't really delay terrans' build, he can still get stuff out at the same time as 1 rax FE. Hey,guys,top master here,i've been struggling alot with zvt,simple question. How do I beat hellion banshee into mech. This is what 90 % of the terran does nowdays,and I just can't get any answer to it... I would prefer someone high above me to answer. These are two totally separate questions. Check out my ZvT guide though, but... hellion/banshee is pretty hard to get down. You really need to practice with someone on this, because it will take a while to figure out. basically what I do, is just what the pros do - 60+ get 20 lings out, and make a spine in both nat and third around 55, and get evo chambers about 60-65 and throw down a spore when they are done, ie at ~70. I try to keep 1 queen at the main ramp with the natural queen near it so I can pull to block the ramp, until the lings are realyl out with speed, and the other 2-4 queens at the third. It's important you connect creep between bases so you can pull your queens quickly. As for mech... if terran does reactor hellion/banshee, he's probably going quick third. I like to respond to quick third mech play by not even making a roach warren, just lots of spines, infestors, and lings, so i can tech up to broods super fast. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
I go mutas every game because of this -- their game plan is literally "I hope I kill him with some drops that I just load up and shift click", which I find as frustrating as various cheese/all-ins. I have a ton of respect for terrans who aggressively drop all game, with an aggressive opener, midgame, and multi pronged attacks all game. I just really dislike it when they're really all-in, and IMO not that good I'll post replays tomorrow -- every single ZvT is either a mass rax all-in, a 2 base CS timing, or this cute drop play. I find it extremely stale to play. Oh, some games are hellion/banshee into mech, easy wins with mutas + roach/bane drops. | ||
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syriuszonito
Poland332 Posts
On September 03 2012 02:57 Mavvie wrote: What's the best way to deal with lame terrans on ladder? What I run into a lot on ladder is 1 rax FE -> some sort of 2 base marine/tank/medivac thing. However, they do multi-pronged drops that take no skill to execute but tons to defend. Take condemned ridge where he spawns below me. He can drop marine/tank at the ledge above my third, marines in my main, and marines in my natural by loading up a few medivacs and shift+ clicking drop. It's impossible to defend, easy to execute. I can't engage the marine/tank at all because of the wicked choke and splash, and if I split up my army he kills it all because Marines behind mineral lines with medivac is imba I go mutas every game because of this -- their game plan is literally "I hope I kill him with some drops that I just load up and shift click", which I find as frustrating as various cheese/all-ins. I have a ton of respect for terrans who aggressively drop all game, with an aggressive opener, midgame, and multi pronged attacks all game. I just really dislike it when they're really all-in, and IMO not that good I'll post replays tomorrow -- every single ZvT is either a mass rax all-in, a 2 base CS timing, or this cute drop play. I find it extremely stale to play. Oh, some games are hellion/banshee into mech, easy wins with mutas + roach/bane drops. You kinda answered yourself -> muta/ling/bane deals very good with lame terrans. As for condemned I think its a bad map so just got it downvoted | ||
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