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On September 03 2012 03:01 syriuszonito wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 02:57 Mavvie wrote:What's the best way to deal with lame terrans on ladder? What I run into a lot on ladder is 1 rax FE -> some sort of 2 base marine/tank/medivac thing. However, they do multi-pronged drops that take no skill to execute but tons to defend. Take condemned ridge where he spawns below me. He can drop marine/tank at the ledge above my third, marines in my main, and marines in my natural by loading up a few medivacs and shift+ clicking drop. It's impossible to defend, easy to execute. I can't engage the marine/tank at all because of the wicked choke and splash, and if I split up my army he kills it all because Marines behind mineral lines with medivac is imba  I go mutas every game because of this -- their game plan is literally "I hope I kill him with some drops that I just load up and shift click", which I find as frustrating as various cheese/all-ins. I have a ton of respect for terrans who aggressively drop all game, with an aggressive opener, midgame, and multi pronged attacks all game. I just really dislike it when they're really all-in, and IMO not that good I'll post replays tomorrow -- every single ZvT is either a mass rax all-in, a 2 base CS timing, or this cute drop play. I find it extremely stale to play. Oh, some games are hellion/banshee into mech, easy wins with mutas + roach/bane drops. You kinda answered yourself -> muta/ling/bane deals very good with lame terrans. As for condemned I think its a bad map so just got it downvoted
Meh, so im actually forced to go muta/ling/bane EVERY ZvT to avoid this stuff? Sucks, I really like infestor/ling, but it makes it impossible to deal with the drops D:
I read the guide on spore crawlers in ZvT, but the spores won't permanently prevent drops on most big maps...again, condemned.
Man I wanna switch to Terran or Protoss but I'll miss ZvZ way too much.
But yeah, better question: is it possible to defend these drops without taking game-breaking damage from cost inefficiency and losing drones using ling/infestor?
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On September 03 2012 03:12 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 03:01 syriuszonito wrote:On September 03 2012 02:57 Mavvie wrote:What's the best way to deal with lame terrans on ladder? What I run into a lot on ladder is 1 rax FE -> some sort of 2 base marine/tank/medivac thing. However, they do multi-pronged drops that take no skill to execute but tons to defend. Take condemned ridge where he spawns below me. He can drop marine/tank at the ledge above my third, marines in my main, and marines in my natural by loading up a few medivacs and shift+ clicking drop. It's impossible to defend, easy to execute. I can't engage the marine/tank at all because of the wicked choke and splash, and if I split up my army he kills it all because Marines behind mineral lines with medivac is imba I go mutas every game because of this -- their game plan is literally "I hope I kill him with some drops that I just load up and shift click", which I find as frustrating as various cheese/all-ins. I have a ton of respect for terrans who aggressively drop all game, with an aggressive opener, midgame, and multi pronged attacks all game. I just really dislike it when they're really all-in, and IMO not that good I'll post replays tomorrow -- every single ZvT is either a mass rax all-in, a 2 base CS timing, or this cute drop play. I find it extremely stale to play. Oh, some games are hellion/banshee into mech, easy wins with mutas + roach/bane drops. You kinda answered yourself -> muta/ling/bane deals very good with lame terrans. As for condemned I think its a bad map so just got it downvoted Meh, so im actually forced to go muta/ling/bane EVERY ZvT to avoid this stuff? Sucks, I really like infestor/ling, but it makes it impossible to deal with the drops D: I read the guide on spore crawlers in ZvT, but the spores won't permanently prevent drops on most big maps...again, condemned. Man I wanna switch to Terran or Protoss but I'll miss ZvZ way too much. But yeah, better question: is it possible to defend these drops without taking game-breaking damage from cost inefficiency and losing drones using ling/infestor?
Its pretty easy with proper creep spread to get a line of spores around on almost any map to prevent drops from doing a lot of damage. At the very most you'll be facing a few stray marines with no medivac to assist them.
I have very little trouble dealing with Terrans who try 2 prong drops with a large push in the middle (3 battles at once) at mid-high masters using ling/festor. The best thing I do is leave 3 banes with 2-3 spores at the most likely places they'll drop. I also use overlord spread and creep spread to see if they're trying to drop in some weird location where I don't have any defenses. Using these two methods well, it becomes incredibly hard for a Terran to land all his marines. He'll likely be microing the middle attack (the bulk of his army and your army) and either lose the medivac, or if he's paying attention to 1 of the medivacs (very rarely will you see them simultaneously dropping and being able to monitor both equally along with the center battle + macro) he'll lose a big chunk of his main army and be in MUCH worse shape than losing the medivac. Even if he sees what you have on the ledge and pulls it back, the medivac is weakened and you just prevented him from being able to drop you at all. After a few spore shots hit it, you can use like 1 fungal and 1 IT to kill it off.
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On September 03 2012 03:12 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 03:01 syriuszonito wrote:On September 03 2012 02:57 Mavvie wrote:What's the best way to deal with lame terrans on ladder? What I run into a lot on ladder is 1 rax FE -> some sort of 2 base marine/tank/medivac thing. However, they do multi-pronged drops that take no skill to execute but tons to defend. Take condemned ridge where he spawns below me. He can drop marine/tank at the ledge above my third, marines in my main, and marines in my natural by loading up a few medivacs and shift+ clicking drop. It's impossible to defend, easy to execute. I can't engage the marine/tank at all because of the wicked choke and splash, and if I split up my army he kills it all because Marines behind mineral lines with medivac is imba I go mutas every game because of this -- their game plan is literally "I hope I kill him with some drops that I just load up and shift click", which I find as frustrating as various cheese/all-ins. I have a ton of respect for terrans who aggressively drop all game, with an aggressive opener, midgame, and multi pronged attacks all game. I just really dislike it when they're really all-in, and IMO not that good I'll post replays tomorrow -- every single ZvT is either a mass rax all-in, a 2 base CS timing, or this cute drop play. I find it extremely stale to play. Oh, some games are hellion/banshee into mech, easy wins with mutas + roach/bane drops. You kinda answered yourself -> muta/ling/bane deals very good with lame terrans. As for condemned I think its a bad map so just got it downvoted Meh, so im actually forced to go muta/ling/bane EVERY ZvT to avoid this stuff? Sucks, I really like infestor/ling, but it makes it impossible to deal with the drops D: I read the guide on spore crawlers in ZvT, but the spores won't permanently prevent drops on most big maps...again, condemned. Man I wanna switch to Terran or Protoss but I'll miss ZvZ way too much. But yeah, better question: is it possible to defend these drops without taking game-breaking damage from cost inefficiency and losing drones using ling/infestor?
I am not sure what you mean by "these drops". As I said I dont play condemned so I dont know the map and cant help you with the situation you described but on other maps you can deal with drops using infestor/ling just fine (even easier if you open with roaches). Not sure if mean some early 2 base allin drops, only that situation on condemned or a lategame agression with drop play?
e: sCCrooked described how to deal with lategame drops nice and easy!
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Can anybody point me to a good example game of how to do the "good-old-new" 6 queen opening? Whenever I play ZvT and try to go for queens 5 and 6, I end up having excess larva and not enough minerals to spend that larva on drones/lings,let alone a third base, shortly after starting the 5th and 6th queen despite 2 bases being fully saturated. :/ This really confuses me
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generally, you build queen 5 and 6 from the natural after you took your third.
Something like:
queen 1 and 2
queen 2 and 4
third
queen 5 at nat
queen 6 at nat.
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United States2095 Posts
On September 03 2012 03:12 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 03:01 syriuszonito wrote:On September 03 2012 02:57 Mavvie wrote:What's the best way to deal with lame terrans on ladder? What I run into a lot on ladder is 1 rax FE -> some sort of 2 base marine/tank/medivac thing. However, they do multi-pronged drops that take no skill to execute but tons to defend. Take condemned ridge where he spawns below me. He can drop marine/tank at the ledge above my third, marines in my main, and marines in my natural by loading up a few medivacs and shift+ clicking drop. It's impossible to defend, easy to execute. I can't engage the marine/tank at all because of the wicked choke and splash, and if I split up my army he kills it all because Marines behind mineral lines with medivac is imba I go mutas every game because of this -- their game plan is literally "I hope I kill him with some drops that I just load up and shift click", which I find as frustrating as various cheese/all-ins. I have a ton of respect for terrans who aggressively drop all game, with an aggressive opener, midgame, and multi pronged attacks all game. I just really dislike it when they're really all-in, and IMO not that good I'll post replays tomorrow -- every single ZvT is either a mass rax all-in, a 2 base CS timing, or this cute drop play. I find it extremely stale to play. Oh, some games are hellion/banshee into mech, easy wins with mutas + roach/bane drops. You kinda answered yourself -> muta/ling/bane deals very good with lame terrans. As for condemned I think its a bad map so just got it downvoted Meh, so im actually forced to go muta/ling/bane EVERY ZvT to avoid this stuff? Sucks, I really like infestor/ling, but it makes it impossible to deal with the drops D: I read the guide on spore crawlers in ZvT, but the spores won't permanently prevent drops on most big maps...again, condemned. Man I wanna switch to Terran or Protoss but I'll miss ZvZ way too much. But yeah, better question: is it possible to defend these drops without taking game-breaking damage from cost inefficiency and losing drones using ling/infestor?
Yes. Simply use 3 control groups. You'll want 1/3 of your lings in one, 1/3 of your lings in the other, and ur infestors in the last. You can have ur lings at both ur front and your main. The infestors should be at whichever side you think is the strongest. Use the infestors to help defend. And a spore or too can help if you know you plan to leave the infestors up front. Anyway its tough to use 3 control groups for your army like this. But its a really good habbit to get into! If you can only use 2 control groups, try simply having 2 groups of lings, and controlling ur infestors in one of the groups  !
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United States4883 Posts
On September 03 2012 05:14 Liquid`Sheth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 03:12 Mavvie wrote:On September 03 2012 03:01 syriuszonito wrote:On September 03 2012 02:57 Mavvie wrote:What's the best way to deal with lame terrans on ladder? What I run into a lot on ladder is 1 rax FE -> some sort of 2 base marine/tank/medivac thing. However, they do multi-pronged drops that take no skill to execute but tons to defend. Take condemned ridge where he spawns below me. He can drop marine/tank at the ledge above my third, marines in my main, and marines in my natural by loading up a few medivacs and shift+ clicking drop. It's impossible to defend, easy to execute. I can't engage the marine/tank at all because of the wicked choke and splash, and if I split up my army he kills it all because Marines behind mineral lines with medivac is imba I go mutas every game because of this -- their game plan is literally "I hope I kill him with some drops that I just load up and shift click", which I find as frustrating as various cheese/all-ins. I have a ton of respect for terrans who aggressively drop all game, with an aggressive opener, midgame, and multi pronged attacks all game. I just really dislike it when they're really all-in, and IMO not that good I'll post replays tomorrow -- every single ZvT is either a mass rax all-in, a 2 base CS timing, or this cute drop play. I find it extremely stale to play. Oh, some games are hellion/banshee into mech, easy wins with mutas + roach/bane drops. You kinda answered yourself -> muta/ling/bane deals very good with lame terrans. As for condemned I think its a bad map so just got it downvoted Meh, so im actually forced to go muta/ling/bane EVERY ZvT to avoid this stuff? Sucks, I really like infestor/ling, but it makes it impossible to deal with the drops D: I read the guide on spore crawlers in ZvT, but the spores won't permanently prevent drops on most big maps...again, condemned. Man I wanna switch to Terran or Protoss but I'll miss ZvZ way too much. But yeah, better question: is it possible to defend these drops without taking game-breaking damage from cost inefficiency and losing drones using ling/infestor? Yes. Simply use 3 control groups. You'll want 1/3 of your lings in one, 1/3 of your lings in the other, and ur infestors in the last. You can have ur lings at both ur front and your main. The infestors should be at whichever side you think is the strongest. Use the infestors to help defend. And a spore or too can help if you know you plan to leave the infestors up front. Anyway its tough to use 3 control groups for your army like this. But its a really good habbit to get into! If you can only use 2 control groups, try simply having 2 groups of lings, and controlling ur infestors in one of the groups !
If you watch Stephano's ZvT, he also regularly just splits his ling/infestor (and the occasional roach) into 2 evenly sized control groups and just keeps one near his 3rd and one near his main; i.e., 1 group is ~20 lings, 5 banelings, 3 infestors, control group 2 is the same thing). If he needs to deal with aggression at the front, he'll generally leave a few lings and combine control groups in the middle. This works exceptionally well, especially on maps like Metropolis and Shakuras.
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I'm a mid rank Platinum player. I tend to focus way too much on macro early on and that is my downfall. They'll charge at me with x grouping of unit and it'll usually stream roll me. I am fairly good at scouting toss, if I see a 4g, I spine up/lings and look for proxy pylons. If I see a FE Terran player, I tend to try and take an early third and keep some lings at their front to poke in. A few minutes later, I'll be on like 70 drones with so, with maybe 10 lings and I'll see a massing of 20 rines/some maruaders and vacs coming across the map.
My question is, where do I find the balance to be droning up AND producing an adequate amount of units to defend myself if I see an imminent attack coming?
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On September 03 2012 08:03 Air.SWP wrote:
I'm a mid rank Platinum player. I tend to focus way too much on macro early on and that is my downfall. They'll charge at me with x grouping of unit and it'll usually stream roll me. I am fairly good at scouting toss, if I see a 4g, I spine up/lings and look for proxy pylons. If I see a FE Terran player, I tend to try and take an early third and keep some lings at their front to poke in. A few minutes later, I'll be on like 70 drones with so, with maybe 10 lings and I'll see a massing of 20 rines/some maruaders and vacs coming across the map.
My question is, where do I find the balance to be droning up AND producing an adequate amount of units to defend myself if I see an imminent attack coming?
You may want to scout a little earlier, to try and figure out what kind of army he has even before he moves out. If you're droning too hard, just one round of units made in response to him moving out may no be enough, especially if it's something like marines and you didn't get a bane nest for whatever reason (scouting issues). Sac an overlord, poke at the front with a few lings, etc.
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Thanks. I will try this and work on my game.
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Now, when fighting a moderate size ball (MMM) early on (before you could have out a decent amount of infestors.) What unit composition would work best? Bane/Roach? Bane/Ling? Bane/Ling/Roach?
I don't like watching tournment/GM replays, because from what I've seen.. You typically don't see 'real' ladder tactics. It's not common that you'll be able to get 4 hatcheries before being pressured at all. It doesn't give me any good information to actually model after.
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Just scout more often. have lings patroling around his base, creep spread, and sack your OVs at the right times, especially the last bit
If you can identify what your opponent is doing then you can know if you can drone or not
Think in simplified terms to start off. At this point in time is he focussing on tech, eco, or army? Then you simply match up to what he's doing and then play normally
EDIT: for your second request itd be helpful if you had a replay of that game, or at least have a sense of what your opponent'd build was
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^ It's not about unit composition, it's about macro. Have enough ling/bane or roach/ling. They all have upsides and downsides. Lings are great in that they don't slow down your tech, but won't be enough without the burst damage of roaches or banes. Banes are terrible off creep, and aren't as good against hellions. Roaches are larva efficient but they take a huge toll on your economy in terms of minerals, but unlike banes, they last all game (for better or worse).
I don't know why you think tournaments don't have 'ladder' tactics. These guys play safe games, just like they would on ladder. You should be able to get 4 hatcheries just fine even against the heaviest of pressure from someone going 1 rax FE. You might miss it when watching pro games, but they are investing a TON into defense. When people whine about "oh 6 queen hold anything ez imba" they are just balance whining or don't know what the fuck they are talking about. most pros commonly get, on top of 6 queens that they make immediately, 2 spines (1 at both nat and third asap, as in right when third pops), make 10-20 lings while only at 50 drones, get spores and evos at 60+. They invest a ton into defense.
If the opponent goes 1 rax FE, you should be able to do all of this safely. But Terran is mining a ton of money too, so you have to be sure to handle it. Provide a rep, and maybe we can help pinpoint what you are doing wrong. With or without pressure, 2 spines, 20 lings, and 6 queens should hold any pressure, along with a few spores.
You really don't need banelings or roaches until after you have 70+ drones. Ie, once terran has medivacs or stim.
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Thanks for the response. I'll play some games later and post up a replay.
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Hello, I'm trying to transition from massing Roaches every game to a more refined style of play.
Basically I want to start with Ling openings more so I can afford Infestor's and more gas heavy units at tier 2 and 3.
I'd love to be able to go mutaling and win. However my build is way off. I find that because I went a ling opener, I don't have enough drones and end up not being able to afford anything. The main reason is because I have my Roach build down to a wire so I know exactly what to get and when.
Can someone post a brief outline BO? Something similar to 14 pool, 15 hatch. Gas timings would be nice also.
Also, I want to start doing allin/timing pushes.. Massing tier 2 then massing tier 3 (basically smothering my opponent in a long macro game) doesn't seem skillful anymore.
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On September 03 2012 20:29 Sacred Reich wrote:
Hello, I'm trying to transition from massing Roaches every game to a more refined style of play.
Basically I want to start with Ling openings more so I can afford Infestor's and more gas heavy units at tier 2 and 3.
I'd love to be able to go mutaling and win. However my build is way off. I find that because I went a ling opener, I don't have enough drones and end up not being able to afford anything. The main reason is because I have my Roach build down to a wire so I know exactly what to get and when.
Can someone post a brief outline BO? Something similar to 14 pool, 15 hatch. Gas timings would be nice also.
Also, I want to start doing allin/timing pushes.. Massing tier 2 then massing tier 3 (basically smothering my opponent in a long macro game) doesn't seem skillful anymore.
It sounds like you're looking for belials guide
It's a looong read/study for sure, but totally worth it.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038
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Having trouble when to get a 3rd in ZvT. I've seen many replays where zergs delay gas in favor of a fater 3rd but when can you do that? Also afterwards a few gas timings for going the Ling/infestor style would be nice.
Have the same problem in ZvZ, usually i just get it when i know he is teching to for example mutalisks but i want more details about this.
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Russian Federation81 Posts
What do you do vs mutas in ZvZ? I've lost literally 20/20 last ZvZs where my opponents went mutas no matter how much better I was in everything. Muta means I can't get a third base, and even if I do I just can't defend everything at once. Infestors are bad because you need a LOT of them and even then they just split, static defenses are useless because, again, you need a LOT of them to hang out on their own, and hydras are.. not ideal either but do seem like the best option to me. I've been playing a ling festor ultra style for a long time so mutas weren't really an issue, but now coming back to roach style I just get demolished by mutas no matter how shit my opponent is, please help.
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On September 04 2012 01:59 Atthasit wrote:
What do you do vs mutas in ZvZ? I've lost literally 20/20 last ZvZs where my opponents went mutas no matter how much better I was in everything. Muta means I can't get a third base, and even if I do I just can't defend everything at once. Infestors are bad because you need a LOT of them and even then they just split, static defenses are useless because, again, you need a LOT of them to hang out on their own, and hydras are.. not ideal either but do seem like the best option to me. I've been playing a ling festor ultra style for a long time so mutas weren't really an issue, but now coming back to roach style I just get demolished by mutas no matter how shit my opponent is, please help.
Low-mid master zerg here.
For me, whenever I scout mutas and go infestors, I'm constantly making queens as well. Infestors by themselves aren't enough for base defense. I tend to go up to 5-8 queens on 3 bases. Additionally, I'll try to keep the third if it's in progress by making a spore at my natural, spreading creep at the third via creep tumour or overlord, and then planting it there. Also, I try to zone mutas to move in certain directions by planting a spore in my main and nat, to increase chances of getting off that money fungal, but you don't have to do that. After I'm able to secure my third, I make a hydra den and eventually move out with roach/hydra/infestor + a few queens that I made earlier. If I don't take any major economic damage from his initial harrass I generally win from there because his composition just isn't as good. Most of the time I can just brute force my way through his third/nat even though he may have a lot of spines. I also get overlord speed whenever I see spire tech, because I'd like to be able to sneak in a fast overlord/seer to see what he transitions to after my opponent gets map control.
There are times where I also just go straight roach hydra while making queens and spores and just a-moving, but this probably isn't as reliable compared to going infestor first.
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On September 04 2012 02:27 Exoteric wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 01:59 Atthasit wrote:
What do you do vs mutas in ZvZ? I've lost literally 20/20 last ZvZs where my opponents went mutas no matter how much better I was in everything. Muta means I can't get a third base, and even if I do I just can't defend everything at once. Infestors are bad because you need a LOT of them and even then they just split, static defenses are useless because, again, you need a LOT of them to hang out on their own, and hydras are.. not ideal either but do seem like the best option to me. I've been playing a ling festor ultra style for a long time so mutas weren't really an issue, but now coming back to roach style I just get demolished by mutas no matter how shit my opponent is, please help. Low-mid master zerg here. For me, whenever I scout mutas and go infestors, I'm constantly making queens as well. Infestors by themselves aren't enough for base defense. I tend to go up to 5-8 queens on 3 bases. Additionally, I'll try to keep the third if it's in progress by making a spore at my natural, spreading creep at the third via creep tumour or overlord, and then planting it there. Also, I try to zone mutas to move in certain directions by planting a spore in my main and nat, to increase chances of getting off that money fungal, but you don't have to do that. After I'm able to secure my third, I make a hydra den and eventually move out with roach/hydra/infestor + a few queens that I made earlier. If I don't take any major economic damage from his initial harrass I generally win from there because his composition just isn't as good. Most of the time I can just brute force my way through his third/nat even though he may have a lot of spines. I also get overlord speed whenever I see spire tech, because I'd like to be able to sneak in a fast overlord/seer to see what he transitions to after my opponent gets map control. There are times where I also just go straight roach hydra while making queens and spores and just a-moving, but this probably isn't as reliable compared to going infestor first.
Really? In my experience, if I deny the third until mine's saturated, I've won the game. I go 2 base muta with 1 evo chamber (+1 missile), and then I use 10 mutas to deny his third while taking mine, then transition into double evo roach/hydra/infestor. 40 roaches, 15 hydras, and 6-8 infestors is my endgame army, and I've never lost with this (even against 2000-2100 MMR players)
How would you react? I guess with queens you'll still get a third, but it'll be really late. I think 2 base infestor is the only build good against 2 base muta, but you're still unable to attack me. You just might get a delayed third if you have a lot of queens...
I actually had so much success with it I stopped doing it because it was boring. Also, speedbane flanks vs roach/hydra are amazing omg.
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EPT
