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On September 04 2012 01:59 Atthasit wrote: What do you do vs mutas in ZvZ? I've lost literally 20/20 last ZvZs where my opponents went mutas no matter how much better I was in everything. Muta means I can't get a third base, and even if I do I just can't defend everything at once. Infestors are bad because you need a LOT of them and even then they just split, static defenses are useless because, again, you need a LOT of them to hang out on their own, and hydras are.. not ideal either but do seem like the best option to me. I've been playing a ling festor ultra style for a long time so mutas weren't really an issue, but now coming back to roach style I just get demolished by mutas no matter how shit my opponent is, please help.
Low-mid master zerg here.
For me, whenever I scout mutas and go infestors, I'm constantly making queens as well. Infestors by themselves aren't enough for base defense. I tend to go up to 5-8 queens on 3 bases. Additionally, I'll try to keep the third if it's in progress by making a spore at my natural, spreading creep at the third via creep tumour or overlord, and then planting it there. Also, I try to zone mutas to move in certain directions by planting a spore in my main and nat, to increase chances of getting off that money fungal, but you don't have to do that. After I'm able to secure my third, I make a hydra den and eventually move out with roach/hydra/infestor + a few queens that I made earlier. If I don't take any major economic damage from his initial harrass I generally win from there because his composition just isn't as good. Most of the time I can just brute force my way through his third/nat even though he may have a lot of spines. I also get overlord speed whenever I see spire tech, because I'd like to be able to sneak in a fast overlord/seer to see what he transitions to after my opponent gets map control.
There are times where I also just go straight roach hydra while making queens and spores and just a-moving, but this probably isn't as reliable compared to going infestor first.
Really? In my experience, if I deny the third until mine's saturated, I've won the game. I go 2 base muta with 1 evo chamber (+1 missile), and then I use 10 mutas to deny his third while taking mine, then transition into double evo roach/hydra/infestor. 40 roaches, 15 hydras, and 6-8 infestors is my endgame army, and I've never lost with this (even against 2000-2100 MMR players)
How would you react? I guess with queens you'll still get a third, but it'll be really late. I think 2 base infestor is the only build good against 2 base muta, but you're still unable to attack me. You just might get a delayed third if you have a lot of queens...
I actually had so much success with it I stopped doing it because it was boring. Also, speedbane flanks vs roach/hydra are amazing omg.
In games where I have a high win rate it's where I'm able to keep my third from being cancelled/killed. If you're saturating your third while attacking mine you won't have the unit count to actually take it down. When your mutas+lings arrive I'll have 4-5 queens, at least 1 spore, and my own ling/bling force. Of course, it's dependent on being able to scout the spire at an appropriate time.
There's also the possibility that my opponents just aren't good enough at executing the style, which is why I had the disclaimer of my relatively low skill level in the beginning.
On September 04 2012 01:59 Atthasit wrote: What do you do vs mutas in ZvZ? I've lost literally 20/20 last ZvZs where my opponents went mutas no matter how much better I was in everything. Muta means I can't get a third base, and even if I do I just can't defend everything at once. Infestors are bad because you need a LOT of them and even then they just split, static defenses are useless because, again, you need a LOT of them to hang out on their own, and hydras are.. not ideal either but do seem like the best option to me. I've been playing a ling festor ultra style for a long time so mutas weren't really an issue, but now coming back to roach style I just get demolished by mutas no matter how shit my opponent is, please help.
Low-mid master zerg here.
For me, whenever I scout mutas and go infestors, I'm constantly making queens as well. Infestors by themselves aren't enough for base defense. I tend to go up to 5-8 queens on 3 bases. Additionally, I'll try to keep the third if it's in progress by making a spore at my natural, spreading creep at the third via creep tumour or overlord, and then planting it there. Also, I try to zone mutas to move in certain directions by planting a spore in my main and nat, to increase chances of getting off that money fungal, but you don't have to do that. After I'm able to secure my third, I make a hydra den and eventually move out with roach/hydra/infestor + a few queens that I made earlier. If I don't take any major economic damage from his initial harrass I generally win from there because his composition just isn't as good. Most of the time I can just brute force my way through his third/nat even though he may have a lot of spines. I also get overlord speed whenever I see spire tech, because I'd like to be able to sneak in a fast overlord/seer to see what he transitions to after my opponent gets map control.
There are times where I also just go straight roach hydra while making queens and spores and just a-moving, but this probably isn't as reliable compared to going infestor first.
Explain 'going infestor after scouting'. Most games my opponents (1900 EU MMR this morning, now down to 1750ish), masters mostly, are obvious with muta: 4 gas before lair, no 3rd, obviously no roach warren. I mean, the best way would be some +1 roach timing, but I'm not really into all ins, at least not in ZvZ. So how exactly do you react? In my build I don't get more than 2 gases until I at least start lair, which is after I start my 3rd at 44. Muta players usually grab all their 4 gasses by that time. Should I also get 4 gasses right away? Or can I get them later at a reasonable time after lair is done? Also I suppose on maps like shakuras grabbing a third in this scenario would be simply impossible due to the distance between natural and third?
^ here's a recent game I played where the opponent went mutas.
He kills my third, but imo it was a stupid attack of his, since it wasn't like he could deny my third so I retook it immediately, and he lost way more units than 300 mineral's worth.
But the principle with what I'm doing here is correct:
I'm not really sure if fast third or 2 base roach/infestor is the better way to play out ZvZ. But I go fast third, so here's how I deal with muta play. I don't really get gas as a fast third zerg that quickly at all, I get like a 2nd gas around 50 when I get third and evo, and I'll progressively add the next 2 gas like at 60+.
on shakuras you should grab that third that T/P tend to take, if you notice your opponent going 2 base lair and most likely mutas. You can still take that other third, you'd just have to make sure to get creep over there before mutas are out (possible, but takes an early queen for creep or cutting out injects), and maybe have a couple more units/spores.
Having trouble when to get a 3rd in ZvT. I've seen many replays where zergs delay gas in favor of a fater 3rd but when can you do that? Also afterwards a few gas timings for going the Ling/infestor style would be nice.
Have the same problem in ZvZ, usually i just get it when i know he is teching to for example mutalisks but i want more details about this.
As a side-note, what's wrong with making 3-4 spores to move to your third once it finishes? Most muta players harass Econ -- I don't bother. If I deny your third with mutas, I've won and don't need to risk losing the mutas.
Queens are a terrific idea--
If I'm doing a Baneling expand (taking third i mean), I start lair ~44. When does one usually scout muta play? I figured 6:30, which is around when I plant my third, which means I'll have enough time to get, assuming 9:30 muta timing, 4 to 5 extra queens out, while still making lair at 44. Seems like ling/queen with transfuse is actually really smart? I honestly never thought of using queens, good idea! I usually only attack with mutas (I often have no lings and 4-6 banes for defense), so I can get a huge macro lead. Even 4 queens + 1 spore should be enough...damn new outlook on life LOL
On September 03 2012 02:57 Mavvie wrote: What's the best way to deal with lame terrans on ladder? What I run into a lot on ladder is 1 rax FE -> some sort of 2 base marine/tank/medivac thing. However, they do multi-pronged drops that take no skill to execute but tons to defend. Take condemned ridge where he spawns below me. He can drop marine/tank at the ledge above my third, marines in my main, and marines in my natural by loading up a few medivacs and shift+ clicking drop. It's impossible to defend, easy to execute. I can't engage the marine/tank at all because of the wicked choke and splash, and if I split up my army he kills it all because Marines behind mineral lines with medivac is imba I go mutas every game because of this -- their game plan is literally "I hope I kill him with some drops that I just load up and shift click", which I find as frustrating as various cheese/all-ins. I have a ton of respect for terrans who aggressively drop all game, with an aggressive opener, midgame, and multi pronged attacks all game. I just really dislike it when they're really all-in, and IMO not that good
I'll post replays tomorrow -- every single ZvT is either a mass rax all-in, a 2 base CS timing, or this cute drop play. I find it extremely stale to play. Oh, some games are hellion/banshee into mech, easy wins with mutas + roach/bane drops.
You kinda answered yourself -> muta/ling/bane deals very good with lame terrans. As for condemned I think its a bad map so just got it downvoted
Meh, so im actually forced to go muta/ling/bane EVERY ZvT to avoid this stuff? Sucks, I really like infestor/ling, but it makes it impossible to deal with the drops D:
I read the guide on spore crawlers in ZvT, but the spores won't permanently prevent drops on most big maps...again, condemned.
Man I wanna switch to Terran or Protoss but I'll miss ZvZ way too much.
But yeah, better question: is it possible to defend these drops without taking game-breaking damage from cost inefficiency and losing drones using ling/infestor?
Yes. Simply use 3 control groups. You'll want 1/3 of your lings in one, 1/3 of your lings in the other, and ur infestors in the last. You can have ur lings at both ur front and your main. The infestors should be at whichever side you think is the strongest. Use the infestors to help defend. And a spore or too can help if you know you plan to leave the infestors up front. Anyway its tough to use 3 control groups for your army like this. But its a really good habbit to get into! If you can only use 2 control groups, try simply having 2 groups of lings, and controlling ur infestors in one of the groups !
Woah first pro reply on TL <3
Ok, I guess that it all makes sense. Thanks for the reply, also thanks sCCrooked! I guess it's not that big a deal to split my army up into different hotkeys, and a spore behind the mineral line prevents him from abusing that terrain!
Awesome. Can't wait to finally be able to play again.
Hi, i have a simple question: How to play greedy as zerg? Is it impotant to have mapcontrol? Or is turtle & drone up a better choice?
I believe having mapcontrol is more important to get a better clue whats goiing on, so you can try to squeeze out the maximum amount of drones possible.
Oh, and how many spinecrawler do i need against early roach push? (~ 6:30`) I think they are the better investment instead of trying to trade armies.
Why did idra do the old school 2 hatch muta into ling bang build at the recent MLG zvt, I thought such a strategy was out of date/basically pointless? Was it just meta gaming orrrr?
I dont remember seeing it so its probably outdated, but maybe yeah?
It's basically a shitty 1 base roach all in. Spine/ling/bane makes an easy defense. I believe you get a super late natural, and no drones, so I can make 4 spines and a ton of lings and /still/ be ahead in Eco, tech, etc.
A much better all-in is a simple 2 base roach/ling all-in, which I believe is compared to a 4 gate (but easier to defend!) It's like hatch-gas-pool, cutting drones at like 30, or getting a macro hatch and doing a 2 gas 44 drone roach/ling all in. They hit around 9:00-10:00
On September 04 2012 07:08 whatevername wrote: Why did idra do the old school 2 hatch muta into ling bang build at the recent MLG zvt, I thought such a strategy was out of date/basically pointless? Was it just meta gaming orrrr?
Because noone uses it right now so terrans do not expect it at all. Its pretty good against the most common helion into banshee build and can do a lot of dmg to terran who is not prepared for early mutas
On September 04 2012 06:47 Striker.superfreunde wrote: Hi, i have a simple question: How to play greedy as zerg? Is it impotant to have mapcontrol? Or is turtle & drone up a better choice?
I believe having mapcontrol is more important to get a better clue whats goiing on, so you can try to squeeze out the maximum amount of drones possible.
Oh, and how many spinecrawler do i need against early roach push? (~ 6:30`) I think they are the better investment instead of trying to trade armies.
Scouting is the key to being greedy. If you know what the opponent is doing, you can cut lots of corners. For example, in ZvP, if I see double gas, I won't get a roach warren for a long time, I might not even get it at all if I can confirm his follow-up. In ZvT, if I see the opponent go 1 rax FE, I'll just make 6 queens, sim city my natural, and not make any units for a long time.
Good macro is also key. In ZvZ, if you macro well, you don't really have to care about an early roach/ling all-in, if I see roaches push out with that overlord I have in front of his base, i just throw down 3-5 spines and make a ton of lings, and it'll be easy to hold. If someone is doing an early roach push, you'll want 3-5 spines depending if it's early or late, and how many lings you can get out (ie did you know about it and make a bunch of lings, or did you not). Yes, making spines is key to holding roach/ling, you aren't going to beat him in roach count when he's been making them since the start of the game. Mutas are imo, the best way to 'counter' roach/ling all-ins.
I have a question in regards to following up after proxy 2 rax.
Do you grab a quick gas for speed, so you can take your third early on maybe (or to baneling bust)? Or do you pump out mass queens? You definitely need to make 2 spines in case he keeps making marines, it seems like ~8-10 marines just kills slowlings so i always feel you need at least 2 spines right away (and in case of scv train).
Is a baneling bust or a roach/bane bust an 'autowin' if he goes proxy 2 rax? Like, in what scenarios? If he double expands, is it? What if he just expands once and gets double gas, ie does a 'normal' follow up? Is it better to ling/bane bust or roach/bane bust a 2 rax as a follow-up? Just ling/bane since he likely won't have hellions right?
Hi there, i have a question regarding ZvP, on maps such an entombed valley, and say u spawn on the bottom left, and your overlords scouts that he is neither top left or bottom right, and you go 15 pool and go to place your 16 hatch at your natural.
Is it worth it to blindly put your hatch down at the third location if he brings a probe and pylon blocks your natural. What if he went gate first and simply 4 gated or something, your hatch wuld be in an awkward position and you dont know if he went FFE or gate first because your overlords havent reached cross map yet.
Or do you simply play safe and go 15 overlord and make 4 lings to break his pylon and put a hatchery and shortly a third hatch if you see FFE?
On September 04 2012 14:39 Belial88 wrote: I have a question in regards to following up after proxy 2 rax.
Do you grab a quick gas for speed, so you can take your third early on maybe (or to baneling bust)? Or do you pump out mass queens? You definitely need to make 2 spines in case he keeps making marines, it seems like ~8-10 marines just kills slowlings so i always feel you need at least 2 spines right away (and in case of scv train).
Is a baneling bust or a roach/bane bust an 'autowin' if he goes proxy 2 rax? Like, in what scenarios? If he double expands, is it? What if he just expands once and gets double gas, ie does a 'normal' follow up? Is it better to ling/bane bust or roach/bane bust a 2 rax as a follow-up? Just ling/bane since he likely won't have hellions right?
What I like to do personally is get the gas up even before the attack actually starts if I scout no barracks in his main and low scv count ( gotta dronescout for that though ) and put 2 drones in it. During the attack I can get speed up and even if everything is going terrible my speed will finish soon enough that I can counter attack with a huge group of zerglings. If I already fought off the aggression I can easily deny the natural for a long time because speedlings surround mistakes so quickly.
Honestly, what you do after a proxy 2 rax is up to preference because you're so far ahead. Personally I just go for ling-bane busts if he decides to expand with a rax wall, because he won't have the gas for hellions. Otherwise I just drone like mad and deny his natural with speedlings and counter whatever composition he is going for.
Roach/bane busts I only really do against hellion based openings, otherwise the roaches just decrease the amount of banelings you have.
On September 04 2012 17:02 Kisezik wrote: Hi there, i have a question regarding ZvP, on maps such an entombed valley, and say u spawn on the bottom left, and your overlords scouts that he is neither top left or bottom right, and you go 15 pool and go to place your 16 hatch at your natural.
Is it worth it to blindly put your hatch down at the third location if he brings a probe and pylon blocks your natural. What if he went gate first and simply 4 gated or something, your hatch wuld be in an awkward position and you dont know if he went FFE or gate first because your overlords havent reached cross map yet.
Or do you simply play safe and go 15 overlord and make 4 lings to break his pylon and put a hatchery and shortly a third hatch if you see FFE?
Good question, I think entombed valley is be the only map where I'd consider going for safe variant (4lings then hatch) because the rocks make it so unconfortable to hold the third. But its metgame dependant, unless you see the gate first openings often just go for fast third!
On September 04 2012 14:39 Belial88 wrote: I have a question in regards to following up after proxy 2 rax.
Do you grab a quick gas for speed, so you can take your third early on maybe (or to baneling bust)? Or do you pump out mass queens? You definitely need to make 2 spines in case he keeps making marines, it seems like ~8-10 marines just kills slowlings so i always feel you need at least 2 spines right away (and in case of scv train).
Is a baneling bust or a roach/bane bust an 'autowin' if he goes proxy 2 rax? Like, in what scenarios? If he double expands, is it? What if he just expands once and gets double gas, ie does a 'normal' follow up? Is it better to ling/bane bust or roach/bane bust a 2 rax as a follow-up? Just ling/bane since he likely won't have hellions right?
I can't answer either of these, but I do have to ask: did you see Leenock holding off Suhosin's 10pool-with-drones-pulled yesterday? And do you think we can generalize that to say that 15hatch isn't an autoloss to that build anymore?
^ In both games, suhosin didn't know what the fuck he was doing. Sorry, but I was screaming at the monitor when both those games happened.
In the first game, Suhosin directly attacked into Belial's Defensive Drone Flower of Death. This is a diamond level mistake, I couldn't believe he did that. He also didn't pull any drones, and ~16 drones own 8 lings hardcore when they have no support. The best Suhosin could have hoped for if he went blind like that would have been to attack the natural while expanding himself, but a drone pull can deal with that, and cancelling the nat really isn't that big a cost anyways. I thought that was what suhosin was going to do, but he didn't. I have no idea what game he ever played where 8 lings beat a ~KR GM's drone micro, because that shit was silly.
In the second game, he pulls EVERY drone, which is just as bad as pulling no drones. Leenock's best choice there would have been to base trade, but Suhosin was retarded so Leenock's 'bad' answer worked. I mean, I think everyone can understand why an all drones pulled, 10 pool, attacking the natural, is a bad idea. It's an all in. Even if he killed Leenock's natural, he still wouldn't be ahead because he pulled every single drone. He also morphed 2 spines in Leenock's natural, which effectively just made Suhosin's push weaker, and gave Leenock more time.
All leenock had to do really was base trade, but, given that leenock didn't, what Suhosin could have done to won in that game, was put a single spine in the natural and then simply a-move to the main. He would have crushed Leenock's 16 drones with 11 drones and 10 lings. Instead, he lets Leenock buy time, and get up 3 spines.
I've done a ton of testing on trying to hold 10 pools. If you can get 3 spines up as defender, you win. Surprisingly, this can work often, because the opponent is either a retard and attacks your natural, or because they are scared of your 16 drones. But 11 drones and 10 lings will just smash 16 drones, even if they are doing Belial's Defensive Drone Flower of Death. An a-move would have won suhosin the game easily. He even saw the 3 morphing spines. Trust me, i've tested with some very high level people on this. Literally, 10 drones and 8 lings will just smash through 16 drones, no matter how well they are micro'd, with an a-move, even inside the mineral line and with drone walking.
I don't really care for Suhosin. I don't think he has any clue how to 10 pool correctly. I was really dissapointed in his play. Nestea came up with the 10 pool 8 of 12 drones pulled w/ 1 spine per base, it's a tried and true, effective way to always beat hatch first. The guy just does really bad cheeses in ZvZ that, as demonstrated yesterday, don't work at all.
EPT
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