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maLaK1
Germany124 Posts
how can they go 10pool take a hatch and not be behind if they dont kill me? i didnt even have much faster zergling speed, my build was 14pool 16 hatch and then gas when I had my speed ready he bunkered behind his wall with his first roaches out,, how is this even possible? shouldnt he behind if his 10pool fails and die to a straight allin? | ||
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Garhf
49 Posts
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Alkresh
United States88 Posts
On September 06 2012 00:18 maLaK1 wrote: i dont get this the last few days a lot of zergs in zvz opened 10 pool and then directly took a hatch how can they go 10pool take a hatch and not be behind if they dont kill me? i didnt even have much faster zergling speed, my build was 14pool 16 hatch and then gas when I had my speed ready he bunkered behind his wall with his first roaches out,, how is this even possible? shouldnt he behind if his 10pool fails and die to a straight allin? If he has both roaches and a wall of queens out then he is behind overall. Unless you go all in with mass speedling with banes or roaches then he will likely be prepared as most zergs respond to the 10 pool fast expand that way. The 10 pool player has likely put lots of resources into defense and will be unable to attack you, so it is a good idea to go extremely greedy, perhaps even taking a quick third and saturating quickly while teching up. He delayed gas and has invested in base defense, feel safe to do whatever you want, because you have still been mining more for longer. | ||
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Alkresh
United States88 Posts
On September 05 2012 23:43 FuzzyDunlop wrote: What is the proper response when I see a protoss build a gateway first on the low ground? Since his cannon will be so delayed, I feel like I should be able to punish this, but the roach/ling attacks I've tried seem to get there too late. I usually don't drone scout in ZvP, so I don't see the gateway first until my ovie gets there, and then assume for this that he does build a nexus at his natural and doesn't just four gate. What's the best response? Gateway first is odd to play against, however on most maps you can have your overlord hover around their natural for a while to scout nexus and whether he goes for a cybernetics or forge after the gateway. Once you see a cyber core finish then you should pull overlord to a safe spot. A forge following gateway means that he will likely be safe from early roach aggression and you should play standard but be wary of a faster than normal warp gate timing. A cyber immediately after nexus means your opponent will be vulnerable to roach pressure since his cannons will either be heavily delayed or non-existent. No nexus is almost certainly an all-in. If it is a 4 player map and you don't scout this for a long time that is your opponent taking a risk and you not scouting properly to counter it. | ||
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TheManInBlack
Nigeria266 Posts
On September 06 2012 00:15 Oboeman wrote: For zvp you can get 80% and upwards winrate by doing the 3 base bust with roach/ling. 3 hatches 1 queen, 24 drones, 6-7 roaches and constantly rallying spedlings. It hits later than the baneling bust, but it still hits before warpgate completes, and still wins if they made blind sentries. Can I have an exact build order or link to a guide on that? Also, some other busts, allins and cheeses (with replays) would be nice to look at also. Fuck macro'ing a whole game with Zerg, boring as hell. | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On September 06 2012 00:18 maLaK1 wrote: i dont get this the last few days a lot of zergs in zvz opened 10 pool and then directly took a hatch how can they go 10pool take a hatch and not be behind if they dont kill me? i didnt even have much faster zergling speed, my build was 14pool 16 hatch and then gas when I had my speed ready he bunkered behind his wall with his first roaches out,, how is this even possible? shouldnt he behind if his 10pool fails and die to a straight allin? If he 10pools and does no damage, then takes a hatch, against your 14p 16h, then you're ahead, but not ahead enough for an auto-win. Sure, you have an opportunity to do some ling-bane damage, but you're likely only a few drones and a few larvae ahead. It sounds like you waited too long, though, and let him get away with a no-baneling transition to roach. Also, you could figure out how it's possible by watching the replay. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On September 05 2012 20:17 Makky92 wrote: So I've had to take a break of around 2 months from hardcore playing on ladder due to moving and stuff like that, and because of it I have no idea what the current metagame is like. I play zerg, and basically what I'm asking is a quick and general look on ZvZ/T/P and what the current meta is for all these match ups. Hey, welcome back! You should probably read Belial's guides on ZvT/ZvP, they cover it pretty well. Generally ZvZ has no metagame, and I think that at any level except the pros, it's literally all ins every game lol. I recommend either 9 or 10 drone scouting and doing a 15 hatch, or doing a blind 14/14 or pool->hatch opening. From there, you either: - take a third off 1 gas, at 2 base saturation. You need 4 to 6 banelings to defend mass ling pressure, more if they have +1 armor. You then add an evo chamber, roach warren, and 2-3 more gasses to pump mass roach/hydra. I'm not sure of the lair timing with this build, the sooner the better unless you die because of it  - 2 base lair (usually mutas), use mutas to secure your third while denying his, ling runby's are great, then it's a good idea to make only ~10 mutas so you can transition into double evo roach/hydra/infestor. - 2 base roach/ling all-in. With or without a macro hatch, with or without upgrades, you basically pump roach/ling off of 2 or 3 gasses and attack between 9:00 and 10:00. I've heard it referred to as a "4gate of ZvZ" | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
And I don't think all-ins are what zvz is about at all, i think it has way less all-ins than the other match-ups. ZvT is pretty macro oriented nowadays, but zvp is still a ton of 2 base toss all-ins. ZvZ rarely ends in all-ins these days, it almost always goes to 3 bases. but i agree otherwise | ||
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MrMcIntosh
Australia91 Posts
Doesn't sense make. Can anyone suggest why this is how it is? PM preferable :D | ||
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tehcaekftw
Denmark138 Posts
On September 06 2012 15:12 MrMcIntosh wrote: If Terran can have 8 supply of marines in a medivac, and protoss can have 8 supply of zealots in a warp prism, why can Zerg only carry 4 supply of zerglings? Doesn't sense make. Can anyone suggest why this is how it is? PM preferable :D All transporters have 8 "slots". 1maribe takes one, and one zergling takes one. One zergling is also only 0.5 supply. Regarding protoss, IIRC zealots are 2 supply and takes up 2 slots? | ||
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Ryndika
1489 Posts
What about cloud kingdom? | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On September 06 2012 20:10 Ryndika wrote: Do you just have to tech BL in daybreak in zvt? Corridors are so thight it's stupid to go ultraling. What about cloud kingdom? It takes some extra effort to flank properly on daybreak, and a little extra for cloud kingdom. But on the other hand, a proper flank becomes deadly in those corridors because there's no third direction they can run. But yes, BLs are much easier. Then again, when are they not? I prefer them on every map in the current pool, and the only time I get ultras is if I already see vikings popping up in pairs. p.s. So many zergs, when using ultra-ling, forget that you need banelings and infestors to accomplish anything. I have yet to see a zerg, pro or otherwise, win any serious fight without either banes or infestors. You need one of them, and want both. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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ElusoryX
Singapore2047 Posts
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On September 07 2012 11:18 ElusoryX wrote: anyone can tell me what are the most 3 veto-ed maps for zergs after the Tal'Darim change now? Which TDA change? Never heard of one. As to the most vetoed maps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=344321 | ||
Jowj
United States248 Posts
This is unfortunately as macro as I have been able to play, as any fast 3rd play I do I end up inevitably behind due to a fundamental misunderstanding of how fast 3rd works, in my mind. Can someone post an opening build order to 3 base saturation and explanation behind it? I don't even want to explain my current thoughts in macro zvz as I believe they are almost entirely erroneous and cause damage to my play. Obviously no ZvZ is played in vacuum, but that is why I would like explanations for why you do certain actions in the build order so I can adapt them to actual real life situations. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
~55 lair, 3rd gas ~60+ roach warren, make roaches Infestation pit if opponent is 2 base lair, hydra den if opponent went fast third too. max out on roach/hydra. Get infestors after maxing out (if opponent went 2 base lair, you'll obviously have those infestors earlier) Make like 5-10 drones at third, then only make roaches until you know what the opponent is doing for sure. An overlord slightly behind the mineral line at his third (this is where I send my 16 overlord since on many of the larger maps if you dont send this one you wont spot when he takes it) can spot for his third timing as well as if he drones it up or takes the gases at it. Push at max, dont get caught in a bad position. Get hive after 2-2 for 3-3. Nydus, broodlords, or anti-broodlord corruptors, for lategame. pretty straightforward. not much really can happen, it's all a game about positioning, micro, counterattacks, and multi-pronged attacks. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
Spores won't work -- he can bring another overlord and trade 100 minerals for the damage the roaches will do (quite a lot) Spines are OK but not great; maybe 2 spines per base? Rerooting sucks though. Just not sure how to stop it. I was ahead in macro so I won anyway, but I imagine this is gamechanging if it were to be a close game. | ||
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ghost_face
Australia33 Posts
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