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On September 07 2012 12:38 ghost_face wrote:
If I accidentally make a drone instead of an overlord on 9 supply, is it more economical to cancel the drone and build and overlord or to let the drone build and do the extractor trick?
most economical if you cant 9 overlord is
to drone to 10, overlord on 10, extractor trick at 75 minerals, build a drone bringing you down to 0 minerals, cancel drone and continue as normal.
extractor trick is building a gas for a split second to free up 1 supply as you build an extra drone incase u didnt know :D
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On September 07 2012 12:18 Mavvie wrote:
What's the best way to deal with roach drops in ZvZ? Played a game today where he kept dropping 4 roaches at my bases, really annoying because I wanted to go kill him lol.
Spores won't work -- he can bring another overlord and trade 100 minerals for the damage the roaches will do (quite a lot)
Spines are OK but not great; maybe 2 spines per base? Rerooting sucks though.
Just not sure how to stop it. I was ahead in macro so I won anyway, but I imagine this is gamechanging if it were to be a close game.
if he keeps doing it eventually youll have to just leave a few roaches at your base, so you can clean it up and then get ahead
Its good to have good OV spread also, which you should have anyways since its zvz
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On September 07 2012 11:54 Belial88 wrote:
50 evo, +1, 2nd gas, third taken with 4 banelings and some lings (make sure opponent isn't doing roach/ling hatch tech all-in)
~55 lair, 3rd gas
~60+ roach warren, make roaches
Infestation pit if opponent is 2 base lair, hydra den if opponent went fast third too.
max out on roach/hydra. Get infestors after maxing out (if opponent went 2 base lair, you'll obviously have those infestors earlier)
Make like 5-10 drones at third, then only make roaches until you know what the opponent is doing for sure. An overlord slightly behind the mineral line at his third (this is where I send my 16 overlord since on many of the larger maps if you dont send this one you wont spot when he takes it) can spot for his third timing as well as if he drones it up or takes the gases at it.
Push at max, dont get caught in a bad position. Get hive after 2-2 for 3-3. Nydus, broodlords, or anti-broodlord corruptors, for lategame.
pretty straightforward. not much really can happen, it's all a game about positioning, micro, counterattacks, and multi-pronged attacks.
Much appreciated, thanks!
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On September 07 2012 12:41 TheGreenMachine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 12:38 ghost_face wrote:
If I accidentally make a drone instead of an overlord on 9 supply, is it more economical to cancel the drone and build and overlord or to let the drone build and do the extractor trick? most economical if you cant 9 overlord is to drone to 10, overlord on 10, extractor trick at 75 minerals, build a drone bringing you down to 0 minerals, cancel drone and continue as normal. extractor trick is building a gas for a split second to free up 1 supply as you build an extra drone incase u didnt know :D
cancel the extractor.... If you cancel the drone the entire mess was waste of apm and minerals :p
While it might be more efficient to 9 overlord (it seems almost all pros agree), the difference is literally around 20 minerals. Cancelling a building unit costs you 1 larva permanently, which is a biggish deal in the early game, so if you mess up definitly 10overlord and extractor trick.
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In zvz, how do you defend against mass muta where they keep massing them and you see they have no intention to transition? Like say 3 base vs 3 base and he takes his 4th while denying yours, has a ball of like 20 mutas and splits them whenever you go in to fungal.
Does anyone else think its strange that as zerg if you cancel a building unit you lose the larva? Protosses and terrans can easily cancel and re-start units from their production buildings...
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On September 08 2012 03:09 trevaur wrote:
In zvz, how do you defend against mass muta where they keep massing them and you see they have no intention to transition? Like say 3 base vs 3 base and he takes his 4th while denying yours, has a ball of like 20 mutas and splits them whenever you go in to fungal.
Does anyone else think its strange that as zerg if you cancel a building unit you lose the larva? Protosses and terrans can easily cancel and re-start units from their production buildings...
Normally you make infestors and then he stops making mutalisks.
If he keeps making mutalisks, keep making infestors and then add hydralisks as well.
This would only ever be a problem if he successfully contained you on 2 bases and has a huge macro lead. If you have 3 base vs 3 base and he takes a 4th while massing muta/baneling, I'm pretty sure you can max and basically kill him.
Zerg loses the larva so that you can't 6pool with 12 lings. (or 8 or 10 or however many you could afford)
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^ is that response still viable if you are going ling/infestor? You wont have any ranged attack upgrades for the hydras, but as far as I can tell that's the only difference.
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On September 08 2012 03:19 Oboeman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 03:09 trevaur wrote:
In zvz, how do you defend against mass muta where they keep massing them and you see they have no intention to transition? Like say 3 base vs 3 base and he takes his 4th while denying yours, has a ball of like 20 mutas and splits them whenever you go in to fungal.
Does anyone else think its strange that as zerg if you cancel a building unit you lose the larva? Protosses and terrans can easily cancel and re-start units from their production buildings... Normally you make infestors and then he stops making mutalisks. If he keeps making mutalisks, keep making infestors and then add hydralisks as well. This would only ever be a problem if he successfully contained you on 2 bases and has a huge macro lead. If you have 3 base vs 3 base and he takes a 4th while massing muta/baneling, I'm pretty sure you can max and basically kill him. Zerg loses the larva so that you can't 6pool with 12 lings. (or 8 or 10 or however many you could afford)
Gotta disagree a little bit. If your opponent commits to mass mutas, you need corruptors. Otherwise, you'll have so many hydras that speedbanes will actually ruin your chance of winning the game. Banes are almost cost efficient vs hydras if there's no splash, but typically they'll hit 3-4.
3 banelings to kill 4 hydras = 150/75 for 400/200
It's dirty
Corruptors also don't die to mutas, and force him to micro like a champ or lose everything to fungal (corruptors and fungal outrange mutas)
But yeah. Get roach/queen/infestor (queens to enable you to expand!), if he keeps making mutas (15+) then throw down a spire + hydra den. Make ~10 hydras once hydra den is finished (always good ZvZ if you have roaches too), and if he is STILL making mutas then make some corruptors. Probably a 1 corruptor : 3 mutalisks ratio, you'll want to be able to engage the muta ball (anywhere on the map -- in your base or at your army), and win with fungals + corruptors.
I could be wrong, but I don't think I am! :D
To clarify: As good as mutas are, corruptors are SO supply efficient against them.
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On September 08 2012 05:17 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 03:19 Oboeman wrote:On September 08 2012 03:09 trevaur wrote:
In zvz, how do you defend against mass muta where they keep massing them and you see they have no intention to transition? Like say 3 base vs 3 base and he takes his 4th while denying yours, has a ball of like 20 mutas and splits them whenever you go in to fungal.
Does anyone else think its strange that as zerg if you cancel a building unit you lose the larva? Protosses and terrans can easily cancel and re-start units from their production buildings... Normally you make infestors and then he stops making mutalisks. If he keeps making mutalisks, keep making infestors and then add hydralisks as well. This would only ever be a problem if he successfully contained you on 2 bases and has a huge macro lead. If you have 3 base vs 3 base and he takes a 4th while massing muta/baneling, I'm pretty sure you can max and basically kill him. Zerg loses the larva so that you can't 6pool with 12 lings. (or 8 or 10 or however many you could afford) Gotta disagree a little bit. If your opponent commits to mass mutas, you need corruptors. Otherwise, you'll have so many hydras that speedbanes will actually ruin your chance of winning the game. Banes are almost cost efficient vs hydras if there's no splash, but typically they'll hit 3-4. 3 banelings to kill 4 hydras = 150/75 for 400/200 It's dirty Corruptors also don't die to mutas, and force him to micro like a champ or lose everything to fungal (corruptors and fungal outrange mutas) But yeah. Get roach/queen/infestor (queens to enable you to expand!), if he keeps making mutas (15+) then throw down a spire + hydra den. Make ~10 hydras once hydra den is finished (always good ZvZ if you have roaches too), and if he is STILL making mutas then make some corruptors. Probably a 1 corruptor : 3 mutalisks ratio, you'll want to be able to engage the muta ball (anywhere on the map -- in your base or at your army), and win with fungals + corruptors. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am! :D To clarify: As good as mutas are, corruptors are SO supply efficient against them.
hydra/roach/fungal deals very good with speedbanes, teching to corruptors seems like a very poor idea for me (and I've never seen anyone respond like this tbh)
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On September 08 2012 05:33 syriuszonito wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 05:17 Mavvie wrote:On September 08 2012 03:19 Oboeman wrote:On September 08 2012 03:09 trevaur wrote:
In zvz, how do you defend against mass muta where they keep massing them and you see they have no intention to transition? Like say 3 base vs 3 base and he takes his 4th while denying yours, has a ball of like 20 mutas and splits them whenever you go in to fungal.
Does anyone else think its strange that as zerg if you cancel a building unit you lose the larva? Protosses and terrans can easily cancel and re-start units from their production buildings... Normally you make infestors and then he stops making mutalisks. If he keeps making mutalisks, keep making infestors and then add hydralisks as well. This would only ever be a problem if he successfully contained you on 2 bases and has a huge macro lead. If you have 3 base vs 3 base and he takes a 4th while massing muta/baneling, I'm pretty sure you can max and basically kill him. Zerg loses the larva so that you can't 6pool with 12 lings. (or 8 or 10 or however many you could afford) Gotta disagree a little bit. If your opponent commits to mass mutas, you need corruptors. Otherwise, you'll have so many hydras that speedbanes will actually ruin your chance of winning the game. Banes are almost cost efficient vs hydras if there's no splash, but typically they'll hit 3-4. 3 banelings to kill 4 hydras = 150/75 for 400/200 It's dirty Corruptors also don't die to mutas, and force him to micro like a champ or lose everything to fungal (corruptors and fungal outrange mutas) But yeah. Get roach/queen/infestor (queens to enable you to expand!), if he keeps making mutas (15+) then throw down a spire + hydra den. Make ~10 hydras once hydra den is finished (always good ZvZ if you have roaches too), and if he is STILL making mutas then make some corruptors. Probably a 1 corruptor : 3 mutalisks ratio, you'll want to be able to engage the muta ball (anywhere on the map -- in your base or at your army), and win with fungals + corruptors. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am! :D To clarify: As good as mutas are, corruptors are SO supply efficient against them. hydra/roach/fungal deals very good with speedbanes, teching to corruptors seems like a very poor idea for me (and I've never seen anyone respond like this tbh)
Yeah, roaches helped. I was pretty unclear, but I said to go roach/queen/infestor to get your third, get hydras and a spire (if you suspect mass muta play), so that you can always make some corruptors + leave a few infestors behind to deal with basetrades/counterattacks. If he invests 60 supply into mutas, you can invest 24 (10 corruptors + 2 infestors) to counter the muta's strengths (again, basetrades/counterattacks)
You're right, it's never a good idea to go straight for corruptors lol. However, ZvZ air control is great to have (overlords!), and corruptors can almost ignore spore/queen and just kill overlords anyway.
Not saying you'd ever want mass corruptor, but it's not like they have 0 value once you kill the mutas.
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Hey, is 15/15/15 viable with only 2 guys in gas?
You'd have more minerals and slower gas, so upon pool completion you could afford 2x queens, and @100 gas you could afford ling speed too! Seems better than only getting to make 1 queen + get speed.
http://sc2planner.com/#ZaaajaaaaaaoAaoDaoFiEaaajhhkuDk
Seems pretty good -- much better economy for a slightly later speed. Speed is delayed by ~10-13 seconds it looks like, and you get the faster (and synced up!) double upgrades.
Just food for thought!
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On September 08 2012 05:08 trevaur wrote:
^ is that response still viable if you are going ling/infestor? You wont have any ranged attack upgrades for the hydras, but as far as I can tell that's the only difference.
hummmm... that is a good question.
Normally I'd just go straight to ultralisks, but maybe that's not the best if they keep making only mutalisks.
ling/infestor vs ling/muta is a very counterattacky game, and I think i'd probably end up nuking one or more of his bases with infested terrans at some point, so I don't know if it will get to that point.
ling/infestor/hydra? you'd definitely need to add banelings of your own to make his banelings less effective.
Get to ultra then make a round of hydras when you attack?
I can't say I've ever had to do this, so I don't know. Having only infestors as your only anti-air isn't great in a big fight against a ton of mutalisks, as long as he doesn't clump. I always use a nydus worm to bring queens when I attack, but I wouldn't have enough queens for 25+ mutalisks.
I don't recommend corruptors. A few corruptors does next to nothing, you'd need a big big investment. Better to get hydras, and use your infestors to kill his banelings, and maybe morph some banelings of your own. I don't think it sets up a good transition into broodlords, because I don't really think greater spire is a good transition to make in zvz.
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On September 08 2012 05:43 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 05:33 syriuszonito wrote:On September 08 2012 05:17 Mavvie wrote:On September 08 2012 03:19 Oboeman wrote:On September 08 2012 03:09 trevaur wrote:
In zvz, how do you defend against mass muta where they keep massing them and you see they have no intention to transition? Like say 3 base vs 3 base and he takes his 4th while denying yours, has a ball of like 20 mutas and splits them whenever you go in to fungal.
Does anyone else think its strange that as zerg if you cancel a building unit you lose the larva? Protosses and terrans can easily cancel and re-start units from their production buildings... Normally you make infestors and then he stops making mutalisks. If he keeps making mutalisks, keep making infestors and then add hydralisks as well. This would only ever be a problem if he successfully contained you on 2 bases and has a huge macro lead. If you have 3 base vs 3 base and he takes a 4th while massing muta/baneling, I'm pretty sure you can max and basically kill him. Zerg loses the larva so that you can't 6pool with 12 lings. (or 8 or 10 or however many you could afford) Gotta disagree a little bit. If your opponent commits to mass mutas, you need corruptors. Otherwise, you'll have so many hydras that speedbanes will actually ruin your chance of winning the game. Banes are almost cost efficient vs hydras if there's no splash, but typically they'll hit 3-4. 3 banelings to kill 4 hydras = 150/75 for 400/200 It's dirty Corruptors also don't die to mutas, and force him to micro like a champ or lose everything to fungal (corruptors and fungal outrange mutas) But yeah. Get roach/queen/infestor (queens to enable you to expand!), if he keeps making mutas (15+) then throw down a spire + hydra den. Make ~10 hydras once hydra den is finished (always good ZvZ if you have roaches too), and if he is STILL making mutas then make some corruptors. Probably a 1 corruptor : 3 mutalisks ratio, you'll want to be able to engage the muta ball (anywhere on the map -- in your base or at your army), and win with fungals + corruptors. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am! :D To clarify: As good as mutas are, corruptors are SO supply efficient against them. hydra/roach/fungal deals very good with speedbanes, teching to corruptors seems like a very poor idea for me (and I've never seen anyone respond like this tbh) Yeah, roaches helped. I was pretty unclear, but I said to go roach/queen/infestor to get your third, get hydras and a spire (if you suspect mass muta play), so that you can always make some corruptors + leave a few infestors behind to deal with basetrades/counterattacks. If he invests 60 supply into mutas, you can invest 24 (10 corruptors + 2 infestors) to counter the muta's strengths (again, basetrades/counterattacks) You're right, it's never a good idea to go straight for corruptors lol. However, ZvZ air control is great to have (overlords!), and corruptors can almost ignore spore/queen and just kill overlords anyway. Not saying you'd ever want mass corruptor, but it's not like they have 0 value once you kill the mutas.
I am still not convinced if its worth to build that spire and corruptors, I'd feel better having those resources invested in hydra/infestor (also keep in mind if he goes that heavy on muta he will have upgs while your corruptors gonna be 0/0 so they wont be that cost/supply efficient as you claim).
15/15/15 sounds interesting but I wonder if its better than just taking gas 20 secs later and mining with 3 drones?
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Thanks oboeman. Yeah, I think something to keep in mind is that the mass muta player will have a really hard time transitioning. Would that justify making a somewhat large investment into corruptors? Chaos said that he likes to play a mass muta style vs ling/infestor, and he said that hr also adds bain rain into his composition with spread out overlords to prevent huge fungals. What do you think about adding on corruptors if you see something like that? It just seems like if you rely on hydras for anti air you would get raped by bane rain and queens are too immobile...
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Mavvie... corruptors are terrible. They actually do have zero value. They do nothing to 'solve' the problem of mutas, they are literally just spore crawlers but cost much more in minerals and gas. Corruptors also don't fight well against mutas either, especially with glaive bounce factored in. 1 corruptors beats 1 mutas, sure, but when you have something like 20 mutas vs 20 corruptors, i think the mutas would win. But you'd never mass corruptors... so you make 5 corruptors to hold the mutas... they are totally useless (unlike infestors, and even hydras), and the muta player can just make 10 mutas and surprise you and just overrun the corruptors.
You should never make corruptors to 'counter' mutas.
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(High Diamond)
How the hell do you a turtling toss with fast mothership into carriers? Normally against double stargate I just attack them with roaches but their mothership is out in time to cloak their base and pick off OL's.
Once they have mothership carrier you can't engage. (Or at least I don't know how to..)
http://salesboostcopywriter.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Replay.zip
Also how the hell do I respond to gate way openings?
And what about double gate in front of the natural - I feel like I can't take a third against zealot pressure. Meanwhile it's 2 base vs 2 base and I lose.
-Andy
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^ If someone is doing a 2 gate in front of their base... that's like a proxy 2 gate, you just get speed. Or it's like a gateway opening, like 1 gate expand. or 3 gate expand. If it's like a kiwikaki style ffe into 2 gates, just get a 6:30 roach warren, and spot for zealots moving out by having your lings in front of his base (like always). Make reactionary lings as necessary, and get a 6:30 warren (because you see no gas at his natural...). He won't have +1 on his zealots before your 6:30 warren finishes, so ling/queen will smash his couple zealots.
It's not even if he goes 2 gate in front of his natural. Just watch his gas count if he opens forge. if he doesnt take gas, get a 6:30 roach warren. If he sends out units, make lings as necessary (4 lings per zealots, 8 lings per stalker, dont overmake, engage with queen support, maybe drones, like select all drones and right click onto the queen).
Gateway openings are pretty easy to deal with. Just get speed, and take a third if they expand to their nat. If he expands at 5:30 its a 3 gate, if it's 4:30 its a 1 gate, any later it's something like DT/SG/mass gates. so you need to have an overlord watching... get a roach warren and evo ~35 if toss doesnt take a natural yet.
check out my zvp guide linked in my profile, it's pretty easy to deal with gateway openings.
as for fast mothership openings. yea it sucks. there's multiple ways to deal with it, depending how you react to the stargate opening.
hydras - roach/hydra or ling/hydra drop should just kill him
corruptors - corruptor/speedbane should roll him
infestors - its going to be a really long game, just grab a 4th and 5th, go ranged/carapace (since you wont really rely on melee for broodlings or lings as much since he's all air, get it?) and get lots of infestors, and corruptors with double ups. its kind of obnoxious, but you should overpower him with IT spam, FG, and corruptor focus fire + corruption. its voidray mass with zealot/archon imo that's much harder to deal with. i guess against that you need broodlord/infestor.
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On September 08 2012 05:59 Mavvie wrote:Hey, is 15/15/15 viable with only 2 guys in gas? You'd have more minerals and slower gas, so upon pool completion you could afford 2x queens, and @100 gas you could afford ling speed too! Seems better than only getting to make 1 queen + get speed. http://sc2planner.com/#ZaaajaaaaaaoAaoDaoFiEaaajhhkuDkSeems pretty good -- much better economy for a slightly later speed. Speed is delayed by ~10-13 seconds it looks like, and you get the faster (and synced up!) double upgrades. Just food for thought!
Just take a guy off gas @52 gas
then you wont run the problem of haivng a ton of gas
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On September 08 2012 07:41 AndySCWilson wrote:(High Diamond) How the hell do you a turtling toss with fast mothership into carriers? Normally against double stargate I just attack them with roaches but their mothership is out in time to cloak their base and pick off OL's. Once they have mothership carrier you can't engage. (Or at least I don't know how to..) http://salesboostcopywriter.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Replay.zipAlso how the hell do I respond to gate way openings? And what about double gate in front of the natural - I feel like I can't take a third against zealot pressure. Meanwhile it's 2 base vs 2 base and I lose. -Andy
Queens and spores, then infestors, then double upgrade corruptors.
always zerglings, always counterattack.
Make sure you have lings denying his 3rd while his void rays are dicking around in your base. He can't take his 3rd until he cloaks it with a mothership, and by then you have 5 bases. Make sure you have lings denying his 4th, and when he brings his mothership to cloak it, nuke his natural with infested terrans (to trade against cannons) then run zerglings in. When he defends his natural and his main, kill his 4th, again with infested terrans and lings. Or just drop zerglings in his main. Play 6 bases vs 3 and make him work his ass off for a 4th base, then kill him with 3/3 corruptors, infestors, and a few broodlords if he somehow fits templar in there. Make lots of static defense everywhere and more or less starve him.
As for a double gate opening, if it's 2 gates before forge/nexus, I tend to just all in him because I know his warpgate is very late and he will have no map vision once I get rid of the zealots. My overlord watches everything so I know the timing of his forge or his core, so I just take gas, make as many lings as I need to hold off his zealots, and then either baneling bust or roach/ling bust him, depending on when he gets his core/forge (early core favours roaches, early forge favours banelings). I don't know if I am flipping a coin or not, but it works most of the time, probably because the people doing it are only doing it to shake things up and don't actually have a stable refined build.
If it's 2gate after forge, make a bunch of zealots and walk across the map to the 3rd, hold that off with lings , queens, and a spinecrawler, and then drone like a madman because his core is significantly delayed, so there is no threat of warpgate pressure for a long time to come. Make the roach warren at your normal time - if he pushes out late enough with +1 and a lot of zealots, you can make roaches, but don't try to get roaches earlier than normal, it hurts your econ more.
Most people go into double stargate after this, because warpgate is so late that they can't do anything else, and 2 stargates makes up for the fact that they are late stargates. So be very aware of the stargate threat. hmm did this happen in the mothership game?
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Also on Shakuras Plateu how do you guys handle pylon blocks at the natural - I find that taking the third as your natural puts you really far behind because it takes so long to get workers over there. And is super easy to cannon before lings can get there to stop it. I feel like if I take my natural there I'm just asking to be abused.
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EPT
