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On September 09 2012 03:23 sCCrooked wrote:Ok I can't seem to figure out how to come out ahead when a Protoss on close positions cannon rushes hardcore. Replay: http://drop.sc/248452I made spines, I made lings, I used my queens and I tried to transition out of it, but anyone who really knows what they're doing will be able to tell I have absolutely no clue as to what to do.
Hm you defend the initial rush attempt without a problem but then ignore the fact that he still has 2 pylons left there and send all lings to natural, I think that was pretty bad. Anyway after you see him make 4+ cannons (that is around 5:45) you should have just let him kill the third. You got the natural ready, his isnt even started yet + he has no tech because he has just invested 1k minerals to kill your hatchery. Whether you choose to go 2 base muta or take your third somewhere else and play a standard game you are in a winning position.
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On September 09 2012 03:44 M4nkind wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 03:23 sCCrooked wrote:Ok I can't seem to figure out how to come out ahead when a Protoss on close positions cannon rushes hardcore. Replay: http://drop.sc/248452I made spines, I made lings, I used my queens and I tried to transition out of it, but anyone who really knows what they're doing will be able to tell I have absolutely no clue as to what to do. I watched the rep, you did vs cannon rush very well in defense, but it threw you off from making injects/units and when push came you just didn't have enough. If you had stopped droning at ~10-11 mins and made mass units you could have held it easy. And when you saw voidray you should have added additional queens. 6 queens + tier 1 units just massacre that early push of his, he was behind so far, you were just a bit too greedy with droning Tbh I would have canceled that 3rd and went 2 base muta vs that guy, and added 3rd on the left expansion in time. With muta+ling defence would have been easy.
See, this is what I'm confused about. How the hell am I supposed to be able to tell when their push comes? When they do crazy stuff like this, its next to impossible to get any sort of reliable scouting information. I sent that ovie in to see if he was making gates or something but I saw absolutely nothing but the stargate units. Sometimes it only delays them by 2 minutes, sometimes I don't see a push for 3 or more. I have absolutely no idea how to tell "OH CRAP HE'S MAKING STUFF".
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On September 09 2012 04:13 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 03:44 M4nkind wrote:On September 09 2012 03:23 sCCrooked wrote:Ok I can't seem to figure out how to come out ahead when a Protoss on close positions cannon rushes hardcore. Replay: http://drop.sc/248452I made spines, I made lings, I used my queens and I tried to transition out of it, but anyone who really knows what they're doing will be able to tell I have absolutely no clue as to what to do. I watched the rep, you did vs cannon rush very well in defense, but it threw you off from making injects/units and when push came you just didn't have enough. If you had stopped droning at ~10-11 mins and made mass units you could have held it easy. And when you saw voidray you should have added additional queens. 6 queens + tier 1 units just massacre that early push of his, he was behind so far, you were just a bit too greedy with droning Tbh I would have canceled that 3rd and went 2 base muta vs that guy, and added 3rd on the left expansion in time. With muta+ling defence would have been easy. See, this is what I'm confused about. How the hell am I supposed to be able to tell when their push comes? When they do crazy stuff like this, its next to impossible to get any sort of reliable scouting information. I sent that ovie in to see if he was making gates or something but I saw absolutely nothing but the stargate units. Sometimes it only delays them by 2 minutes, sometimes I don't see a push for 3 or more. I have absolutely no idea how to tell "OH CRAP HE'S MAKING STUFF".
If you dont see him getting 3rd you can stop at ~52 drones and make units only + add tech and squeeze drones here and there. Oh and I noticed you made hydra den, better just make spire (my way) or infestation pit vs air. I really think you overdroned and saced overlord a bit too early, with that cannon rush, you can add 2-2.30 mins for moving it into main (it delays toss so much). If you got weak scouting info get additional units so you would not get caught off guard. Better be safe than sorry not more greedy than sorry
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On September 09 2012 02:13 M4nkind wrote:
at how many broodlrods do you think its possible to move out to the map without spine pushing vs toss? I see pros doing it with ~20 of them or more. I often start moving with ~15 , kill their army and have something about 6 left. Got some lings beneath broorlodrds and infestors behind to fungle toss to death. I really hate that spinecrawler turtle style.
This is something you can really figure on your own. Not to be mean, but it's truly an experience thing. Personally I don't do the spine push at all, it's just way too immobile. i prefer to mass spines as my expansions so i can do whatever i want with my broods. I dont find spines very helpful at all at 'countering' blinks or vortexes either. i think it's better to be a bit aggressive, ie when toss spent his vortex, force toss to spend a vortex, spam IT at his fourth so he has to engage unfavourably. i think a lot of people think it's just mass broodlords, whatever, but there's a very real timing when it comes to broodlords, and you can give that up if you are too passive. i dont really find fg that useful tbh, except against air mass. these days i rarely FG in all 3 match-ups unless it's an extremely juicy clump.
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Is there a compendium of 2 base strats and allins? Because Belials guides cater more to that fast 3 base macro play which I don't like.
Timings, mixes and replay examples?
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^ both of my zvt/zvp guides go in-depth on 2 base play. there isn't really much to it because they are shallow strategies, but there are reps and how-tos on both of those guides on how to execute those 2 base 'all-ins'. I mean there isn't really much strategy you could write on, say, how to 4 gate. You are hitting a timing, you are the one doing a (somewhat) all-in, there isn't any timing you need to worry about, you need to execute your timing, hope it works, and transition as you would in a standard game (he didnt die, time to take next base, tech up, etc, or, do the 2 base build, and be less all-in with it because you start your third before your attack, etc).
if you think the 2 base strats are lacking, please, let me know. i can add to them if you feel they are weak. ill even do them myself on ladder so i can post up some reps of them or whatever is necessary.
and every 1-2 base all-in zerg can do that's popularly viable, is listed too, i believe. again, if you feel they are lacking or not clear, please let me know. I feel like I explain how to do every all-in pretty clearly with the build orders given, instructions on execution and transitions, and rep/vod examples.
you can also search anything posted by TangSC. All he does is post all-ins, and they are quite comprehensive. not all of them are very viable at higher level play, but a lot of them are.
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what's a good, solid way to end the game in zvp before the whole broodlord/infestor vs mothhership/blink stalker fiasco? I generally just hate that phase of the game, no real way to counterattack or backstab because you need your WHOLE army in order to deal with his WHOLE army. I would need to devote ~20 supply's worth of lings in order to cause some damage (like killing a base) but I need that to get up my 20 or so broodlords. I can't seem to get a 'feel' for how many drones is best, either it seems I make way too many (not many broodlords) or way too little (not that much of a bank), and I just hate how the entire game hinges on one vortex. Congrats, all the shit you've done for the past 25 mins just got thrown out the window. zzz
So yeah, what are some solid timing attacks or cheese designed specifically to just kill protoss? I can't be assed to play another zvp where herpderp either he vortex's me and I lose or I neural and he loses because lolinfestor.
Also, I got promoted into diamond about halfway through the season (Yay me!). Lately though I've gotten into Dota 2 and CSGO and forgot that instead of glorious macro games with action all over the map Dia is cheese central. Any general tips/tricks?
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what's a good, solid way to end the game in zvp before the whole broodlord/infestor vs mothhership/blink stalker fiasco?
There's this unit in HOTS coming out called the swarm host. It was designed specifically because of this problem.
You can check out reps in my zvp guide of extreme lategame zvp. I re-root the 20 spines made for that pre-hive timing at my expos and around my greater spire, and I'll add on spines as the game goes on. It isn't uncommon for me to have 50+ spines in very very long games, with 3/3/3, 3/3 (+3 ranged so important for IT, and 3/3 on air is really important).
You can check out the guide also on how to deal with vortex, and the reps show perfect examples of how I deal with it. vortex is easily dealt with - 5-10 corruptors focusing down a mothership, with corruption, especially with 3/3, just rape it so quickly. It's ridiculous how fast 5 corruptors kill a mothership. With the ground army focused on IT/broodlings/infestors/broodlords, they will kill it unimpeded and extremely quickly. Oboeman also posted a video on youtube (search for it!) that shows how to engage toss army with mothership, always lay down a line of IT in front of your broods.
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On September 09 2012 10:11 Thienan567 wrote:
what's a good, solid way to end the game in zvp before the whole broodlord/infestor vs mothhership/blink stalker fiasco? I generally just hate that phase of the game, no real way to counterattack or backstab because you need your WHOLE army in order to deal with his WHOLE army. I would need to devote ~20 supply's worth of lings in order to cause some damage (like killing a base) but I need that to get up my 20 or so broodlords. I can't seem to get a 'feel' for how many drones is best, either it seems I make way too many (not many broodlords) or way too little (not that much of a bank), and I just hate how the entire game hinges on one vortex. Congrats, all the shit you've done for the past 25 mins just got thrown out the window. zzz
So yeah, what are some solid timing attacks or cheese designed specifically to just kill protoss? I can't be assed to play another zvp where herpderp either he vortex's me and I lose or I neural and he loses because lolinfestor.
Also, I got promoted into diamond about halfway through the season (Yay me!). Lately though I've gotten into Dota 2 and CSGO and forgot that instead of glorious macro games with action all over the map Dia is cheese central. Any general tips/tricks?
If you're really far ahead doom drops with roach/ling can be a good way to end the game. Be careful with this though, if you're not cost-efficient with these its an easy way of losing your lead. A good cheese I like to use is a baneling bust off 3 hatch http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=331230. I nearly win all of the games that I use this in at my level (Diamond on SEA).
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^ Some pro toss have said they 'love it' when Zerg does roach/ling drops. Just like the 11:00 roach max, it's just terribly all-in and you will get roflstomped by the colossus push off 3 base since you won't have broodlords out in time. Except it's even more all-in. Mana showcased just how 'easy' it is to deal with roach/ling drops in his GSL games (antiga).
There's not really many cheeses zerg has. It's just if it fails, you lose the game. The best 'cheese' zerg really can go for to end the game in the mid-game is mass muta. You can still kind of transition if you don't close the game, and you can go ling/speedbane/muta/ultra if you still want to be aggressive and close out the game. I really think your best bet is mutas, leenock does a lot of muta play and if he doesn't win the game then and there he'll go ling/bane/muta/ultra to smash the opponent for a win (it seems like always fails... but i imagine it works somewhere for him. but literally every time ive seen it failed lol).
Whereas I think T/P have a lot of 'cheeses' / all-ins that can rely a lot on micro, and can be super strong even if the opponent knows they are coming. Zerg just falls behind really hard if their all-in fails, and are so timing critical, and composition specific, that they are prone to being countered really hard.
i mean, in my opinion. roach drops are fine. i think it's strong if toss does a 2 base all-in of some sort, but then again, so are mutas.
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^ Some pro toss have said they 'love it' when Zerg does roach/ling drops. Just like the 11:00 roach max, it's just terribly all-in and you will get roflstomped by the colossus push off 3 base since you won't have broodlords out in time. Except it's even more all-in. Mana showcased just how 'easy' it is to deal with roach/ling drops in his GSL games (antiga).
Except that you also have the option of taking out his main nexus with a drop while he is doing his 3 base push, making it okay for you to sacrifice your 4th/5th and hold at your 3rd without losing the game, and with the tech unlocked you can drop banelings on his army while defending that big push.
make damn sure you clear out observers before dropping though - almost all of the big drop fails that I have seen are because it gets spotted long in advance.
I think if you want to try to keep a ZvP on lair tech you should be going for baneling drops. Sometimes they are spectacular, but on the other hand sometimes they flop. Do whatever you were already doing, roach/ling/infestor/corruptor whatever, but instead of going hive sink excess gas into banelings and rain doom.
mana likes it when zerg drops roach/ling directly on his army, I'm not sure that he likes it when he loses his main base to a drop. I wouldn't say that he handled it easily, I'd say that hyun bled himself to death julyzerg style, more than anything else.
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On September 09 2012 12:03 Belial88 wrote:
^ Some pro toss have said they 'love it' when Zerg does roach/ling drops. Just like the 11:00 roach max, it's just terribly all-in and you will get roflstomped by the colossus push off 3 base since you won't have broodlords out in time. Except it's even more all-in. Mana showcased just how 'easy' it is to deal with roach/ling drops in his GSL games (antiga).
There's not really many cheeses zerg has. It's just if it fails, you lose the game. The best 'cheese' zerg really can go for to end the game in the mid-game is mass muta. You can still kind of transition if you don't close the game, and you can go ling/speedbane/muta/ultra if you still want to be aggressive and close out the game. I really think your best bet is mutas, leenock does a lot of muta play and if he doesn't win the game then and there he'll go ling/bane/muta/ultra to smash the opponent for a win (it seems like always fails... but i imagine it works somewhere for him. but literally every time ive seen it failed lol).
Whereas I think T/P have a lot of 'cheeses' / all-ins that can rely a lot on micro, and can be super strong even if the opponent knows they are coming. Zerg just falls behind really hard if their all-in fails, and are so timing critical, and composition specific, that they are prone to being countered really hard.
i mean, in my opinion. roach drops are fine. i think it's strong if toss does a 2 base all-in of some sort, but then again, so are mutas.
I agree, but at my level I get a lot of protoss just doing random shit off two bases that completely fails and I'd rather end the game after than that than enduring another 20 minutes of infestor/spine turtle into Brood Lord. Its more a matter of saving time rather than executing a strategy that is completely sound at the Code S level.
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^ I think soon you will get tired of losing games that you had 'won'. That's what happened to me. Now I rarely have those 'wtf i had that game won' moments. Trust me it's not jsut your level that toss does taht either. the 2 base all-iner, the cannon rush into dts into void rays, the failed all in into immoratl/sentry, the dts into 2 base all-in, etc. its like im playing the same toss every time.
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On September 09 2012 14:13 Belial88 wrote:
^ I think soon you will get tired of losing games that you had 'won'. That's what happened to me. Now I rarely have those 'wtf i had that game won' moments.
Probably, but I guess I'll just keep doing it until it stops working, I only ever do it if I feel that I'm way ahead so I still get my fair share of thrilling 100 drones into spine/infestor into brood lord.
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What do you guys veto right now?
Seems like this map pool favours Protoss or is it just me, I have entombed, shak and antiga vetoed, thinking about unvetoing antiga but cloud and ohana are both so good for Protoss :/ .
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On September 09 2012 17:54 schmutttt wrote:
What do you guys veto right now?
Seems like this map pool favours Protoss or is it just me, I have entombed, shak and antiga vetoed, thinking about unvetoing antiga but cloud and ohana are both so good for Protoss :/ .
Condemned - dont like the map, not played anywhere
Entombed - close postions suck + free 3 base for toss
Tda - rocks on third
I think both shakuras and antiga are pretty good for zvp, maybe you should unveto it?
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On September 09 2012 17:54 schmutttt wrote:
What do you guys veto right now?
Seems like this map pool favours Protoss or is it just me, I have entombed, shak and antiga vetoed, thinking about unvetoing antiga but cloud and ohana are both so good for Protoss :/ .
I have TDA, entombed, and shakuras vetoed. Considering un-vetoing shakuras (it's not bad IMO, don't know why I vetoed) and vetoing antiga. Antiga's great for ZvZ and ZvP, but I have yet to win a ZvT on it.
Why would anyone vetoe condemned?? It's amazing for all matchups, if anything it's Zerg favoured!
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On September 10 2012 00:03 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 17:54 schmutttt wrote:
What do you guys veto right now?
Seems like this map pool favours Protoss or is it just me, I have entombed, shak and antiga vetoed, thinking about unvetoing antiga but cloud and ohana are both so good for Protoss :/ . I have TDA, entombed, and shakuras vetoed. Considering un-vetoing shakuras (it's not bad IMO, don't know why I vetoed) and vetoing antiga. Antiga's great for ZvZ and ZvP, but I have yet to win a ZvT on it. Why would anyone vetoe condemned?? It's amazing for all matchups, if anything it's Zerg favoured!
TDA is an awful old map. Entombed and Shakuras are also really bad old maps. If you don't see the problem with Shakuras, its because you aren't at a level where T will use that rock-blocked passage to facilitate a marine/tank push or where P expand out to the middle and can easily block any attempts to attack them by controlling the middle.
Antiga is really bad too because of the clockwise rotation that enables ridiculous drop opportunities which Zerg currently has no way to spread itself out for the necessary defenses.
Condemned I'm kind of split on. If the players go completely standard, I feel I can play on par with all races as Zerg with a slight advantage forming as they become more spread out across the map. However if a P or T spawn in the corner next to mine (I won't call it close because its not really that close), it can become incredibly hard to hold that third, forcing you to expand into the middle top or bottom (depending on where you are relative to them) and creating a really awkward line you have to defend (its really hard against 1700+ masters T, trust me). Also those ridges behind the "natural-thirds" are ridiculously good drop spots. I've even seen Ts that sim city buildings there by dropping 2 scvs with their tank/marine and there's literally nothing you can do about it because it'll be there long before you have BLs to deal with them. Also the map being huge actually serves as a disadvantage to me because I have great trouble finding decent BL/festor positioning to use on the map. Its so open in the middle, they just flank and its all over because while you were managing your BLs and trying not to die, you got triple-dropped with 3/3 marines back at your bases.
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On September 10 2012 00:15 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 00:03 Mavvie wrote:On September 09 2012 17:54 schmutttt wrote:
What do you guys veto right now?
Seems like this map pool favours Protoss or is it just me, I have entombed, shak and antiga vetoed, thinking about unvetoing antiga but cloud and ohana are both so good for Protoss :/ . I have TDA, entombed, and shakuras vetoed. Considering un-vetoing shakuras (it's not bad IMO, don't know why I vetoed) and vetoing antiga. Antiga's great for ZvZ and ZvP, but I have yet to win a ZvT on it. Why would anyone vetoe condemned?? It's amazing for all matchups, if anything it's Zerg favoured! TDA is an awful old map. Entombed and Shakuras are also really bad old maps. If you don't see the problem with Shakuras, its because you aren't at a level where T will use that rock-blocked passage to facilitate a marine/tank push or where P expand out to the middle and can easily block any attempts to attack them by controlling the middle. Antiga is really bad too because of the clockwise rotation that enables ridiculous drop opportunities which Zerg currently has no way to spread itself out for the necessary defenses. Condemned I'm kind of split on. If the players go completely standard, I feel I can play on par with all races as Zerg with a slight advantage forming as they become more spread out across the map. However if a P or T spawn in the corner next to mine (I won't call it close because its not really that close), it can become incredibly hard to hold that third, forcing you to expand into the middle top or bottom (depending on where you are relative to them) and creating a really awkward line you have to defend (its really hard against 1700+ masters T, trust me). Also those ridges behind the "natural-thirds" are ridiculously good drop spots. I've even seen Ts that sim city buildings there by dropping 2 scvs with their tank/marine and there's literally nothing you can do about it because it'll be there long before you have BLs to deal with them. Also the map being huge actually serves as a disadvantage to me because I have great trouble finding decent BL/festor positioning to use on the map. Its so open in the middle, they just flank and its all over because while you were managing your BLs and trying not to die, you got triple-dropped with 3/3 marines back at your bases.
Just a tip, so you never die to that Shakuras back door tank/marine pressure.
A mere 3 lings on your back rocks break them down in plenty of time before any such drops come in. I think they do it in like 3 minutes or so? Saw it on IdrA's stream ages ago. And hellions almost never go there to check for it, so it's usually safe to do.
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On September 10 2012 00:15 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 00:03 Mavvie wrote:On September 09 2012 17:54 schmutttt wrote:
What do you guys veto right now?
Seems like this map pool favours Protoss or is it just me, I have entombed, shak and antiga vetoed, thinking about unvetoing antiga but cloud and ohana are both so good for Protoss :/ . I have TDA, entombed, and shakuras vetoed. Considering un-vetoing shakuras (it's not bad IMO, don't know why I vetoed) and vetoing antiga. Antiga's great for ZvZ and ZvP, but I have yet to win a ZvT on it. Why would anyone vetoe condemned?? It's amazing for all matchups, if anything it's Zerg favoured! TDA is an awful old map. Entombed and Shakuras are also really bad old maps. If you don't see the problem with Shakuras, its because you aren't at a level where T will use that rock-blocked passage to facilitate a marine/tank push or where P expand out to the middle and can easily block any attempts to attack them by controlling the middle. Antiga is really bad too because of the clockwise rotation that enables ridiculous drop opportunities which Zerg currently has no way to spread itself out for the necessary defenses. Condemned I'm kind of split on. If the players go completely standard, I feel I can play on par with all races as Zerg with a slight advantage forming as they become more spread out across the map. However if a P or T spawn in the corner next to mine (I won't call it close because its not really that close), it can become incredibly hard to hold that third, forcing you to expand into the middle top or bottom (depending on where you are relative to them) and creating a really awkward line you have to defend (its really hard against 1700+ masters T, trust me). Also those ridges behind the "natural-thirds" are ridiculously good drop spots. I've even seen Ts that sim city buildings there by dropping 2 scvs with their tank/marine and there's literally nothing you can do about it because it'll be there long before you have BLs to deal with them. Also the map being huge actually serves as a disadvantage to me because I have great trouble finding decent BL/festor positioning to use on the map. Its so open in the middle, they just flank and its all over because while you were managing your BLs and trying not to die, you got triple-dropped with 3/3 marines back at your bases.
O.o those back rocks are still there? I remember seeing a video where destiny breaks down his own rocks, and as a result catches Terran unsieged and wins with ling/bane. As with typical destiny, it was fucking hilarious. Interesting to note that idra does that too, and more interesting that it still exists. I thought it was removed... :O
I agree about condemned and the stupid cliff behind the thirds, but I'd rather play against that than play ZvT on antiga lol. Also ZvZ on the map is just so perfect I could never bring myself to veto it. I've never been unlucky enough to notice having..vertical spawns you mean? I've always been cross spawns or close by air, so I guess I have good luck haha. I can see the problem with having to hold one of the middle expansions, but hey- at least there's no ledge 
Agreed about lategame, I usually try to either win with lair tech, or get ultras and try to win with a more mobile lategame army. I imagine if you could cover the map in creep that would help.
Ok here's what I've done, and I'd like to know if it's a good idea:
How often do you hit 'w' as zerg? never. So I set w as control group 9, and originally planned on having injecting queens in it. However, I like the separate control groups method, so I'm left with a new hotkey. I think that having creep queens on 'W' for mid/lategame would be a good idea. I always see pros lose their "creeper queens" once they use their 2 or 3 control groups for their ling/bane/lairtech. Having a fourth hotkey, right under 2/3, would enable you to quickly spread creep all game long, and also helps with lategame transfuses. Just thinking about remapping control groups more efficiently for lategame -- who's gonna want to fungal/move broodlords/press 9, T click T click T click? 9 is so far out, and I use 4-8 and 0 for macro...just wondering if any pros do this, and if not then why not?
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EPT
