EPTI only dislike shakura cuz its ugly
so dark and grimThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 374
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M4nkind
Lithuania178 Posts
I only dislike shakura cuz its ugly so dark and grim | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On September 10 2012 05:04 M4nkind wrote: I have banned none of the maps. Most of maps are good or even advantageous for zerg now. I really dont feel bad when playing TDA, you can try some different 2 base strat. I think even bad maps makes game more fun. Its fun to play at advantage/disadvantage its boring to play on "similar" maps all day everyday. I only dislike shakura cuz its ugly so dark and grimDon't worry. When you get +2 Blink Stalker all inned and hellion contain --> low ground siege all in on TDA enough times, you will come to hate Tal'darim. Oh did I mention the ZvZ coinflip? TDA with rocks is just silly. | ||
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Tula
Austria1544 Posts
What i absolutly hate is entombed with it's stupid random spawns.... Seems like almost every 2nd game there, i get close spawns (meaning they spawn next to my third basically). Combined with the narrow ledge between the 3 bases siegetank defense and attacks are hard to hold at best.... For some reason, even if many people like it, i also have a problem statistically on Cloud Kingdom. Only map where i have below 50% winrate and can't figure out why :p it shouldn't be bad for a zerg I feel. | ||
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M4nkind
Lithuania178 Posts
On September 10 2012 06:01 Flonomenalz wrote: Don't worry. When you get +2 Blink Stalker all inned and hellion contain --> low ground siege all in on TDA enough times, you will come to hate Tal'darim. Oh did I mention the ZvZ coinflip? TDA with rocks is just silly. zvz is not a coinflip there, you kind of need to go speedling expand and start speedling + baneling wars. Its much more fun than early game fighting turtling roach players on other maps. Yes I got blink stalker attacked and hellion contained yet its great map for roach baneling bust vs terran (I play macro but map forces me to all in from time to time since its so perfet for it) and it makes it fun. Since common strats fail at that map. Least TDA is like a fresh air on ladder for me from all that current greedy meta game. | ||
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AndySCWilson
43 Posts
I mean some form of roach/infestor into roach/infestor/hydra or roach/hydra or roach/hydra/infestor. What are timings to consider? How does taking a 3rd work? Should I get hydras first or infestors? Should I double evo, etc. I always ling/infestor/ultra - but this is so bad on some maps (especially shak plateau). So I want to start adapting roach play into my arsenal for bad ling/infestor/ultra maps. | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On September 10 2012 07:41 M4nkind wrote: zvz is not a coinflip there, you kind of need to go speedling expand and start speedling + baneling wars. Its much more fun than early game fighting turtling roach players on other maps. Yes I got blink stalker attacked and hellion contained yet its great map for roach baneling bust vs terran (I play macro but map forces me to all in from time to time since its so perfet for it) and it makes it fun. Since common strats fail at that map. Least TDA is like a fresh air on ladder for me from all that current greedy meta game. but 15 hatch can hold 14/14 baneling war if micro'd properly. and then you end up behind. do you take the risk opening hatch first on a 4 player map with no ramp, or do you play it safe and risk ending up behind? it's a known coin flip lol. | ||
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Thienan567
United States670 Posts
On September 10 2012 11:17 AndySCWilson wrote: How the hell does roach based ZVZ work? I mean some form of roach/infestor into roach/infestor/hydra or roach/hydra or roach/hydra/infestor. What are timings to consider? How does taking a 3rd work? Should I get hydras first or infestors? Should I double evo, etc. I always ling/infestor/ultra - but this is so bad on some maps (especially shak plateau). So I want to start adapting roach play into my arsenal for bad ling/infestor/ultra maps. For roach zvz, it's hard to tell when exactly their roach warren goes down. Some zergs like to put it down immediately after pool so they don't have to deal with ling/bling, some delay it until after expo comes up. Either way, expect the roach warren to be up by around 7:30. If you go roach, you NEED to go double evo. The most common way to lose or win a game of roach vs roach is by upgrades. Plus, most of the time you'll find yourself going roach/infestor, and ITs benefit from the ranged upgrade. I find that most of the time when going roach you transition into infestors simply because it's the best gas sink, and synergizes well with roaches. you go infestors for fungal, ITs during fights, and borrowed infestor harass isn't too shabby. I believe it's 4 infestors with full energy that can spawn enough ITs to kill a hatch before the opposing army gets there to defend. If you get past roach/infestor wars during the midgame, consider transitioning to BLs and crackling drops. Cracklings are SO AWESOME, use them to snipe tech, queens, drones, bases, etc. They're great. Do be careful when going BLs, though. Between corruptors and hydras, Zerg has awesome AA. And due to creep probably being all over the map, you'll probably find yourself being flanked and backstabbed a lot. Be careful. | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On September 10 2012 12:34 Thienan567 wrote: For roach zvz, it's hard to tell when exactly their roach warren goes down. Some zergs like to put it down immediately after pool so they don't have to deal with ling/bling, some delay it until after expo comes up. Either way, expect the roach warren to be up by around 7:30. If you go roach, you NEED to go double evo. The most common way to lose or win a game of roach vs roach is by upgrades. Plus, most of the time you'll find yourself going roach/infestor, and ITs benefit from the ranged upgrade. I find that most of the time when going roach you transition into infestors simply because it's the best gas sink, and synergizes well with roaches. you go infestors for fungal, ITs during fights, and borrowed infestor harass isn't too shabby. I believe it's 4 infestors with full energy that can spawn enough ITs to kill a hatch before the opposing army gets there to defend. If you get past roach/infestor wars during the midgame, consider transitioning to BLs and crackling drops. Cracklings are SO AWESOME, use them to snipe tech, queens, drones, bases, etc. They're great. Do be careful when going BLs, though. Between corruptors and hydras, Zerg has awesome AA. And due to creep probably being all over the map, you'll probably find yourself being flanked and backstabbed a lot. Be careful. What? Skipping ling/bling to go roach warren right after pool is technically not correct, you need those first banes to hold a ling all-in, unless I have it really really wrong. Putting down the warren right on pool completion is for a roach all-in, isn't it? There's no standard, workable defensive roach build, you get overrun by lings if your opponent scouts it. You don't need double evo for roaches at all, you only NEED double evo for ling-infestor in zvz. Missile attack is much more important than carapace, and +2 missile costs the same as +1 carapace, for more gain. Roaches hit hard with slow shots, so armor is, understandably, less valuable in roach wars. I commonly see +2 missile come before +1 carapace in pro zvz, hell even in my ladder zvz games. You get infestors because without them, your roaches die to roach+infestor. I want to say that BL is no longer the hive tech of choice in ZvZ, that ultra has been the go-to for awhile; someone back me up on this. But ling drops just aren't seen. Why drop when you can just... run by? Drops are for the 4-infestor "hit squad". While each of these points I'm bringing up can be considered contentious, I get the feeling that your post is just oddly misinformed, based on my experience in high diamond-low masters as well as from all the stuff that belial, chaos, and other higher level players have posted in this thread. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
ZvZ is confusing, im not really sure if fast third before lair is the best way to play a macro game or the viability of 2 base roach/infestor. so i didnt really want to comment. but i still think his post isn't really correct, at best 'oh just go roach/infestor' is really bland and general and kind of wrong unless you go 2 base roach/infestor, which i'm not convinced is viable, but some people do it. and he doesnt really make a distinction about it. I kind of feel if you play a roach based game you should go broods. By the time you get ultras out the opponent could have broods out, since he'll be massing spines, and the ultras won't really do anything to bust mass spines on 4 base. There was a great zvz recently on gom on antiga, it went up to mass broodlord/corruptor with a ton of spines. Maybe ultras would be good if it's a really neck and neck aggressive roach vs roach based game and the bases are spread out so you can't really mass spines, but im not sure if that's better than just making more roach/hydra/infestor. | ||
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haaz
157 Posts
Which units should I make, what transitions should I do? What units should I make against immortal, archon, blinkstalker, ht late game army composition? | ||
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M4nkind
Lithuania178 Posts
On September 10 2012 11:28 Flonomenalz wrote: but 15 hatch can hold 14/14 baneling war if micro'd properly. and then you end up behind. do you take the risk opening hatch first on a 4 player map with no ramp, or do you play it safe and risk ending up behind? it's a known coin flip lol. hmm, I really would like to disagree. At my level when I look at reps, me going speedling expand vs hatch first worker count gets evened out. At TDA you kind of have to "overinvest in defences - get a spine or additional queens" in most of cases I manage to get ahead in workers by doing/faking aggression. | ||
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Spydo
United States39 Posts
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syriuszonito
Poland332 Posts
On September 10 2012 17:53 haaz wrote: What are the responses I can make against blinkstalker archon mid-late game army composition? Which units should I make, what transitions should I do? What units should I make against immortal, archon, blinkstalker, ht late game army composition? Nothing unusual, just follow the standard roach/ling -> infestor/add spines -> bl transition, it deals well with almost every toss composition. | ||
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TheManInBlack
Nigeria266 Posts
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On September 10 2012 11:17 AndySCWilson wrote: How the hell does roach based ZVZ work? I mean some form of roach/infestor into roach/infestor/hydra or roach/hydra or roach/hydra/infestor. What are timings to consider? How does taking a 3rd work? Should I get hydras first or infestors? Should I double evo, etc. I always ling/infestor/ultra - but this is so bad on some maps (especially shak plateau). So I want to start adapting roach play into my arsenal for bad ling/infestor/ultra maps. This will seem a bit counterintuitive but You will want to open defensive banelings. The banelings allow you to not die against ling/bane Allins and those annoying speedling Allins (where they FE then hide zerglings in their main until speed finish and 30 lings run out). Going roaches too early gimps your economy and you won't be able to keep up with players who delay roaches. Around when you saturate two bases you have a choice to take the fast third or to tech to lair or to start massing roaches for a timing attack. in the current metagame I don't see the two base timings to be very solid but they are simple and can easily kill a Zerg being too greedy and will hit either before infestors or at the very worst the infestors have only one fungal but also have a weak supporting army. Just note that if they take a third and you don't kill it in the attack, you are pretty much dead. If you take the fast third you will need to rely on ling baneling a bit longer so make good use of them. Deny the opposing third, Threaten counter attacks. In general I think going double evo when taking the third is better than just attack upgrades (providing that you are trying to get 2/2 And infestors quickly and not just use the 3rd as a macro hatch for a mass roach attack). Things you need to watch out for at this stage are 2 base roach Allins, mutalisks and mass upgraded zerglings from ling/infestor players running into your main and trying to snipe your third. I think the consensus is to tech to infestor first then fill in hydras as you max out. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On September 10 2012 18:46 Spydo wrote: hatch first is always ahead of speedling expand. Your opponent was probably playing bad Not on TDA though. In my opinion, you can't go hatch first honestly on TDA against 14/14 and come out ahead economically. You'd have to do a hatch first baneling nest, which is okay I guess but you end up behind economically if they just expand on 21. I think TDA is only 14/14 ling/bane all-ins. | ||
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Snuggles
United States1865 Posts
On September 11 2012 01:18 Belial88 wrote: Not on TDA though. In my opinion, you can't go hatch first honestly on TDA against 14/14 and come out ahead economically. You'd have to do a hatch first baneling nest, which is okay I guess but you end up behind economically if they just expand on 21. I think TDA is only 14/14 ling/bane all-ins. What about 15 pool 15 hatch on TDA? I'm pretty out of touch of the meta game right now, but that's what I remember from the last time I've played ZvZ on the ladder. Is 15/15 just not the standard anymore and everyone is reverting to 14/14 and hatch first builds? | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
On September 11 2012 02:00 Snuggles wrote: What about 15 pool 15 hatch on TDA? I'm pretty out of touch of the meta game right now, but that's what I remember from the last time I've played ZvZ on the ladder. Is 15/15 just not the standard anymore and everyone is reverting to 14/14 and hatch first builds? 15 pool 15 hatch, just like 15 hatch, relies on being able to block the ramp against early speed openings. there is no ramp to block on tal'darim. 15 pool 15 hatch is great on most other maps. | ||
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CougarsGonnaCoug
United States18 Posts
I generally play way better than my rank of silver, beating much higher-ranked players than myself. If I had to make a legitimate guess, I'd say I'm at about top gold/mid plat level but I didn't make a push because I wanted to finish my first season solid at #1. I went on a massive losing streak the past couple of days, so I've resigned to the fact that that isn't going to happen, but I could still use some advice with my ZvZ and play in general. Ok, so I usually dominate when I face any kind of standard play because my macro/apm is really good imo, at least until I fight and I slip up in macro, lol. Working on that. But when faced with early-game aggression, I really choke and can't ever seem to make the right stuff to hold it off. I feel like if I drone, he can attack and there's just no way I can hold; conversely, if I build units, my economy suffers and I never quite have enough to hold it off. I actually struggle heavily versus Reaper play, but that's not really too common and now I know to get quick roaches instead of quick ling speed if I scout it, so I'll move on to my ZvZ woes. Replay 1 So my opponent opens 15 macro hatch, 15 pool, 14 gas. Interesting, I have seen this before and I can never make enough stuff to hold it. I don't drone scout in ZvZ and instead opt for 14 pool and 16 hatch, using my first OL to scout incoming lings. Generally I play aggro after I develop an economy, but in this case I didn't have the chance. Because of a bad OL angle, I didn't get to scout the macro hatch until about 4:10, at which point I reacted by making lings. In hindsight, making a few spines probably would have been better, but I still don't think I would have had enough minerals to fully hold that. Plus he could just avoid them and it would still hurt bad... right? I just never really had the chance to get ling speed because I went for a later gas and I couldn't hold his attack at all. Replay 2 He goes double extractor trick into 12 pool and 13 gas. Again, interesting, but thanks to close air positions I was able to scout the early pool and gas by comparing it to the progress of my own inverted 14/14. I understand the standard 14/14 is 14 gas, 14 poo, but I figured pool first would provide more safety after coming off that loss against the macro hatch guy. I see this and, learning from my mistake, immediately threw down a spine. Probably should have made that two, but I'm not sure and that's why I come to you guys here. So I try to remember the amount of lings exiting his base so I know how many to make, and I figure that as long as I can hold, I'm ahead since I have a nat already. I thought I microed the first part decently, but I slipped with those lings and lost around 10 while I was pulling them away from the banes. I thought I was winning here, though, so I decided to chase him back to his base and see how many more lings he has. Can't tell you how surprised I was that he had quite a few roaches waiting for me. I suppose an OL scout would tell me that, but with minerals so precious I decided not to sac an OL to find out. I will admit my micro here was pretty bad, and there was just no way I could hold so many units with ~30 lings so I decided to go for a half-hearted counter attack that I knew would fail. Side notes: I know I should make a drone before mining: I did, but it lagged and the commands got dropped. Also, first game I normally don't leave without a gg but I was really, really frustrated. So yeah, that's where I stand. Help would be much appreciated. | ||
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