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On September 12 2012 02:03 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 00:24 Decendos wrote:
how to perfeclty defend a 11 11 rax?
and how to do it on ohana where he can build a bunker that walls his marine COMPLETELY in?! The perfect defense is for your drone scout to find the proxied Rax being constructed and to harrass the Scv and force a cancel. There are common proxy locations on maps so it is a good habit to learn where they are and check those spots. 6xFPCs has a pretty good write up on what to do if it is at your doorstep. I felt it was good to add that adjusting you scout patterns helps a great deal.
I don't think it's practical to scout to check around to look for possible proxies. Are you going to do that on every map, every time? Even if you find the rax, there's a good chance you won't stop it anyways, such as if you find it anytime less than ridiculously early or if they bring an extra scv or two. And are you drone scouting on top of this?
But, I will make my overlord on Shakuras go up a bit to see that common proxy location between the 2 gases of the 2 naturals (behind the los blocker), on Ohana I'll make my scouting worker stop by the watch tower (a good idea on most maps, really), and on Daybreak, you'll notice that worker scouts and units naturally will take the route where they turn right then left to reach the opponent's base, so I purposefully force my worker to take the route that the opponent would naturally take (same travel distance, just an AI thing where they pick different routes) so I can run into enemy scouts or possible proxy builders.
just gotta pull enough drones (you can't really pull too many workers, dont worry about pulling too many drones, and as you get closer and closer to code s level, you can try to be greedy and pull less workers) and if the map has a specific spot where they can block (Shakuras, the natural ramp, Belshir/TDA the main to natural choke, Ohana that little nook opposite of main ramp side by natural ramp, etc), put a drone there to patrol and be mindful of it as you micro (ie try to block it).
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I can't stand ling bane wars in ZvZ. What's a safe and economic way to skip that stage of the game?
Play a safe macro game. Get a baneling nest in reasonable time, and put up a spine a bit after bane nest finishes, and have 4 lings on hotkey at home to morph into banes if the opponent moves out (you see with overlord spotting in front of his base).
ezpz. you'll welcome ling/bane aggression as a way to just straight up win the game with 2 base mtuas since the opponent will be so far behind.
Is there a concensus as to what is best when blocked with an incomplete engineering bay? I don't see pros do it, but it has happened to me
You should have an overlord spotting your natural. As soon as you realize he's going to block your natural, you should pull an extra 2-3 drones to kill the worker quickly (along with the one down there to make the natural, which you should use to block him from planting the ebay while the other workers are on their way) and then focus down the 1% complete ebay quickly enough.
If you let him build it and get far with it, you are going to be in a bad spot and will need to get ling speed since you won't have creep, queens, spines if necessary for aggression, etc, so it's best just to make sure it never happens. Terran won't really be able to make an ebay block get far if he pulls a depot SCV. The only way he could make an ebay without you seeing it or seeing the SCV coming to do so, is if he pulled an SCV at 6 and started making it at like 10. Which would be absurd in how far it would put him behind.
Well getting a natural in the first place is a bit of a challenge as well. By the time I'm usually well into trading lings and banes with my opponent my natural is around 50% done. This is what I'd like to avoid. If I open 14 gas/pool when should I expo?
Speedling expand... 14/14/21 expand. Keep 1 drone in gas. Baneling nest when at 50 gas. Very simple. And why are you going 14/14? That just hurts your economy soooo much, and you don't really get anything out of it. It's just an all-in cheese opening, if you are playing it without cheesing that's just weird.
I mean terran's used to go 1 base banshee in ZvT as an opening. Nowadays, it's cheese. Metagame just kind of evolves, people's macro gets better, but going 14/14 will just put you too far behind unless it's a map like TDA.
I don't know if expanding at 17 is common for speedling expand. i think most people make a few drones and queen and speed so naturally they can only really make the expo at 21, maybe 20.
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Disillusioned Zerg here. I love 2 base play/Aggression/All ins. But people keep telling me that I need to stay 1 base ahead of my opponent or I will lose. So when I try to play the standard fast 3rd macro game I just lose because I have no control over what the enemy is doing. The only fast 3rd build I can do competently is the Max Roach. Because I know that by 11-12 mins I need to kill the Protoss 3rd - its a game plan so I'm comfortable with that. However anything else such as ling openings I just die.
I'm perfectly capable of getting a 3rd & 4th up and transitioning into late game for Hive tech should I need to.
Do I switch races or do I ignore these people and play like TangSC?
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On September 12 2012 06:47 Sacred Reich wrote:
Disillusioned Zerg here. I love 2 base play/Aggression/All ins. But people keep telling me that I need to stay 1 base ahead of my opponent or I will lose. So when I try to play the standard fast 3rd macro game I just lose because I have no control over what the enemy is doing. The only fast 3rd build I can do competently is the Max Roach. Because I know that by 11-12 mins I need to kill the Protoss 3rd - its a game plan so I'm comfortable with that. However anything else such as ling openings I just die.
I'm perfectly capable of getting a 3rd & 4th up and transitioning into late game for Hive tech should I need to.
Do I switch races or do I ignore these people and play like TangSC?
play how you like and what works for you. If you play at the lower levels, you can probably get by with 'less optimal' builds like running off 2 base instead of 3, because don't macro as well, and opponents not making the right decisions (ie massing units off 2 base instead of taking a third, getting a strong high tech army with support, and then pushing).
But you will find if you play cheesy/all-innish you will reach a point where it won't really be reliable anymore, and you will be suited to macro play because you are so underdeveloped in it. It should be no surprise that if you are a cheesy player, you are going to be terrible at a macro game.
You can check out my guides in my profile on how to play a 'standard' game. You can play however you want, many zergs get up to even code s solely based on cheese, like suhosin (who was prompty smacked down, but still).
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I play a very aggressive style, roach pressure zvt drone behind it, baneling pressure zvz mix in drones, roach ling pressure zvp drone behind it ect.
For me the aggressive playstyle actually helps me be more consistent because I have more control over scouting my opponent, forcing him to multitask (a test of skill), and remain unpredictable.
Do whatever you like. Zerg has aggressive builds that can be allin or you can drone behind it. Just keep being efficient and plan your followup with multiple responses as you have near perfect scouting while playing aggressive.
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Thanks for the advice Belial, but I just played a practice game vs a Platinum Protoss. I copied the pros and did what they do:
Fast 3rd, get the macro hatch at Lair.
Some roaches for defense but primarily a ling force.
Scout using zerglings/overlords and deny the Protoss 3rd and keep him in his base.
Get Infestors and Tech to Hive.
Get 5th base.
Build a spine wall near protoss closest base.
Get Broodlord/Corruptor/Crackling/Infestor
Win.
It was the most fucking boring game of my life. I can't play like this!!!!!
@TheGreenMachine
Typically how do you think about an aggressive game plan when you ladder? I have 2 screens when I play, so if I'm playing vs a terran I'll quickly put on an aggressive build order (a guide from TangSC usually) and I'll follow it from the 2nd screen.
Anyway to mix it up and knowing when to drone/transition?
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It was the most fucking boring game of my life. I can't play like this!!!!!
yep. you just described every game i have in every match-up (except zvz, i dont really get what to do in zvz right now). they all last 30+ minutes, double spire, mass broods...
It's the only way I find that reliably wins, and I just outplay my opponents. I get small leads here and there and I basically punish my opponents for ever attacking, even if they are on 3 or 4 bases.
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Belial, then how do you have fun playing the game? If it's not fun, why play? Do you have goals to get into grandmaster, etc, or do you like winning even if it's just snoozing for 30 minutes? :O
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^ Crushing stupid scrubs. Obviously my win rate is ~50% given that i play on ladder. I lose zvz and to all-ins in the other match-ups. I'm still figuring out infestor play in zvt, ive been going broodlords recently but losing some dumb games because I forget spire, dont get the broods in time, take my fourth too late, etc. Only until recently I was having a lot of trouble with hellion/banshee. I lose to fast third play in zvp sometimes too, and the weird mass gateway attack has been killing me a lot because I try not to get a roach warren in zvp (so like they'll go 6:30 third off FFE 1 gate or robo expand, and against either I won't get a roach warren or roach speed usually, so that sort of attack really screws me over, im figuring out if i should just always get a roach warren and roach speed in lategame, or if i should rely on scouting to see if they are going colossus or not). I've been having a bit of trouble with plain gateway all-ins recently too, I'm not making roaches right when roach warren pops and I'm droning hard and getting lair against it because agaisnt 4 gate +1 you gotta make sure to keep droning and get lair or else you lose, but that works out really bad when it's a 6 gate and I thought it was just a 4 gate +1 because I didn't see the other 3 gateways until too late.
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In ZvZ, if I'm going for roach/hydra/infestor, what sort of proportions should I be going for in the composition? Also, at which point in the game should I start going for hive tech if at all? Am I better off just keeping the same composition and mixing in corruptors to counter my opponents brood lords or should I go for brood lords of my own?
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On September 12 2012 13:25 734pot wrote:
In ZvZ, if I'm going for roach/hydra/infestor, what sort of proportions should I be going for in the composition? Also, at which point in the game should I start going for hive tech if at all? Am I better off just keeping the same composition and mixing in corruptors to counter my opponents brood lords or should I go for brood lords of my own?
If you are not planning on trying to end the game with lair units, you should have more spines and and less roaches/hydras as possible because you need all the gas you can for BL's and infestors (infestors are ok later in the game)
But if you're really going to bust down the front door, you should make more roaches/hydras, throw down infested terran balls until opp dies. (Usually this isn't the right way to win)
You should try to get your spire and hive if your gas starts to kick in from your 3rd and 4th bases. This happens when you are maxed out and you stop building gas units. Then you free up some supply later on for the BLs.
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whats the best formations of roaches when facing ling/ infestor? clump them up or spread them out? also how do different levels of upfrades affect roach vs lings??
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On September 12 2012 17:18 ThePlayer33 wrote:
whats the best formations of roaches when facing ling/ infestor? clump them up or spread them out? also how do different levels of upfrades affect roach vs lings??
Spreaed them out, so fungals arent quite as effective against you. You'll also be wanting either banes or infestors of your own, to counter the lings.
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Hey guys !
I'm not quite sure this is thread-worthy (so I just leave that here) but I just wrote a small guide for anyone struggling with the current Terran build (1 Rax FE into 1/1/1 into 3rd CC). This is the Nydus build Curious used against MKP in the GSL Code S.
 2 Base Nydus (vs. Terran)
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Perhaps I'm doing something fundamentally wrong here, but I'm just absolutely lost against Protoss (I'm mid-Platium). My basic problem is that the Protosses I tend to fight either do some ridiculous all-in which I lose to, or they'll simply scout me and hard-counter whatever I have. Now the first problem I can work with. I got to scout more so I can have more time preparing. Cool. The latter problem, though? They build an observer and scout me early and then counter whatever I build. I build some roaches, I get attacked by tons of immortals. I build lings, I get attacked by tons of +1 zealots. I go mutas.. well, you get the idea. What do I do here?
There's no way to deny an observer this early, or should I build an early lair and overseers more often just because of that? Or should I start doing wild tech-switches as soon as I see an observer over my army? Help!
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On September 13 2012 01:18 Conti wrote:
Perhaps I'm doing something fundamentally wrong here, but I'm just absolutely lost against Protoss (I'm mid-Platium). My basic problem is that the Protosses I tend to fight either do some ridiculous all-in which I lose to, or they'll simply scout me and hard-counter whatever I have. Now the first problem I can work with. I got to scout more so I can have more time preparing. Cool. The latter problem, though? They build an observer and scout me early and then counter whatever I build. I build some roaches, I get attacked by tons of immortals. I build lings, I get attacked by tons of +1 zealots. I go mutas.. well, you get the idea. What do I do here?
There's no way to deny an observer this early, or should I build an early lair and overseers more often just because of that? Or should I start doing wild tech-switches as soon as I see an observer over my army? Help!
roaches + lings are fine up till they get to collosus. Just dont forget to get upgrades. Mixture of ling+roach when used correctly owns early protoss ground attacks. Get +1 roach attack, and then add 1 more evolution to start +1 meele/ +1 carapace and continue with them to 2/2 and 3/3. I would suggest keeping map presence - hold xelnaga, scout the front a bit to see what units are moving out of his base. Try focusing on your economy and think less of what is coming, most of time its immortal+sentry. If you feel very insecure get roach warren a bit earlier and make 3 roaches to defend vs zealot aggression.
Maybe you should read threads about holding allins. Since toss at earl-mid game hase to choose. Either heavy 2 base attack or 3 base play.
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hi guys , ive recently been browsing the strategy forum and i noticed a discusion about zvz openings and builds etc, and i noticed that somone said that "if the player goes anything but mutalisk or infestor into a third base he will be economicly behind?. please could someone explain how this statement is true . thanks.
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party of economy is tech. Infestors and Mutas are the building force of the mid-late game, because they can beat all zerg t1 fairly easily or with some little back-up. Therefore, if the player isn't getting one of these around the time of their third they will be behind.
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thanks for the reply but a lot of the games of zvz i see are based on mass roach with infestors and hydras , so wouldnt it be better to throw down a hydralisk den incase mutas are scouted as hydras are more cost efficient than mutas than actually tech to mutas with a chance of the other player having a good amount of hydras to deal with them ? basicly what im trying to say is , wouldnt it be more of an econimical benefit just to throw down a premature hydralisk den?
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EPT
