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On September 13 2012 05:47 jewitt wrote: thanks for the reply but a lot of the games of zvz i see are based on mass roach with infestors and hydras , so wouldnt it be better to throw down a hydralisk den incase mutas are scouted as hydras are more cost efficient than mutas than actually tech to mutas with a chance of the other player having a good amount of hydras to deal with them ? basicly what im trying to say is , wouldnt it be more of an econimical benefit just to throw down a premature hydralisk den?
sorta but infestors are way better than hydras vs mutas. I recommend that, upon suspecting 2base lair (often mutas), you make some extra queens and use queen/infestor/roach to take your third. Never go 2base roach/hydra basically. 2base roach/infestor is okay, but it's better to try and take your third with roach/infestor/queen; you can take your third before the mutalisking player if you keep your queens alive. A spore or two at the third also helps.
No, because roach infestor beats roach hydra. And you can deal with mutalisks with infestors. If you are getting overwhelmed, THEN you build a few hydras, but against pure roach ling hydra, roach infestor wins. Its why muta style fell out of favor a month or two ago, but has been coming back as purely a map control aspect of the matchup.
Hey guys, I am getting back into SC2 ladder after quitting pretty early after it released. I am working with Zerg and started out by doing a 2 base all in roach strategy that attempted to mass roach from the 8 minute mark until my opponent was dead. As I got higher in Gold I have noticed this not working against pretty much every Toss and Zerg opponent, it still works quite nicely against Terran. So I explored some alternate options for Toss and Zerg and noticed that most of my opponents are extremely greedy in the beginning of the game. Toss going FFE without fully walling off early and zergs doing 14/15 hatch. I was looking for a build that would punish these players while leaving me open to expanding into a roach/infestor heavy midgame build as I am not yet proficient enough to tackle 4/5 base macro in the late game.
I stumbled on a build using speedlings and am trying to see if there was any more information on it but have been unsuccessful in finding any in regards to the specific order I am doing things. My current build opens normally but gets the pool on 11 without over-pooling: 9 Overlord 9-10 Drone 11 Pool 10 Extractor 9-12 Drone 13-14 Ling 15 Queen Start Metabolic Boost here 17 Ling
From here I have the option to punish my opponent for having no defenses up or for failing to wall off, or take my natural. It also works extremely well at repelling early cheese as I have held off both a 6 pool with drones and a 2 gate proxy rush. I have seen the 11 pool - 18 hatch build mentioned, but I don't think that this build is being used to get a fast speedling for early aggression. I could be wrong about that though.
My questions are as follows: Is this a viable build plan moving up into Platinum? I have won quite a lot of games @ top tier gold (as of last night I was rank 1 Gold) with a smattering of Platinum players thrown in and most of them never felt close. Does anyone have any information on this build or any variation? Replays of pros using it, caster analysis, or a written guide of some sort? I seem to be failing at finding these things and it is making me think this build is not viable as my opponents skill level goes up. Does over-pooling really add anything? I see it a lot in written guides and I just don't see the point. I have seen guides saying that it actually minimally hurts your economy moving into the mid game.
On September 13 2012 06:45 Shreder wrote: Hey guys, I am getting back into SC2 ladder after quitting pretty early after it released. I am working with Zerg and started out by doing a 2 base all in roach strategy that attempted to mass roach from the 8 minute mark until my opponent was dead. As I got higher in Gold I have noticed this not working against pretty much every Toss and Zerg opponent, it still works quite nicely against Terran. So I explored some alternate options for Toss and Zerg and noticed that most of my opponents are extremely greedy in the beginning of the game. Toss going FFE without fully walling off early and zergs doing 14/15 hatch. I was looking for a build that would punish these players while leaving me open to expanding into a roach/infestor heavy midgame build as I am not yet proficient enough to tackle 4/5 base macro in the late game.
I stumbled on a build using speedlings and am trying to see if there was any more information on it but have been unsuccessful in finding any in regards to the specific order I am doing things. My current build opens normally but gets the pool on 11 without over-pooling: 9 Overlord 9-10 Drone 11 Pool 10 Extractor 9-12 Drone 13-14 Ling 15 Queen Start Metabolic Boost here 17 Ling
From here I have the option to punish my opponent for having no defenses up or for failing to wall off, or take my natural. It also works extremely well at repelling early cheese as I have held off both a 6 pool with drones and a 2 gate proxy rush. I have seen the 11 pool - 18 hatch build mentioned, but I don't think that this build is being used to get a fast speedling for early aggression. I could be wrong about that though.
My questions are as follows: Is this a viable build plan moving up into Platinum? I have won quite a lot of games @ top tier gold (as of last night I was rank 1 Gold) with a smattering of Platinum players thrown in and most of them never felt close. Does anyone have any information on this build or any variation? Replays of pros using it, caster analysis, or a written guide of some sort? I seem to be failing at finding these things and it is making me think this build is not viable as my opponents skill level goes up. Does over-pooling really add anything? I see it a lot in written guides and I just don't see the point. I have seen guides saying that it actually minimally hurts your economy moving into the mid game.
That's all for now, thanks for the help!
You're basically doing an unrefined version of an overpool. Your build will have lots of idle larvae. I recommend opening 10g/10p/10overlord with extractor trick if you want to open early speedlings. I also recommend not doing this, except in ZvZ. Sure, you'll get a lot of free wins because Protoss doesn't wall off or pull a few probes for hold pos micro while the cannon gets up, sure you'll beat a lot of Terrans who CC first or suck at scouting and go 1rax FE with 1 depot (not walling off). But if they play even somewhat close to almost maybe nearly standard, and do anything resembling scouting, you'll flat out start 100% of games way, way behind. Except in ZvZ, 10pool baneling or 10pool 8/12 drones pulled 1 spine at each hatch hard counters hatch first. Other than that, you'll get free wins against nexus first but that's it.
Edit: Also, FFE isn't greedy. It's standard. 15 hatch with a 10 dronescout isn't greedy, it's standard. Failing to wall in is just bad play, blind 15 hatch is relying on luck. Metagame has changed a long time since the game came out, and these openings are popular and safe.
On September 13 2012 06:45 Shreder wrote: Hey guys, I am getting back into SC2 ladder after quitting pretty early after it released. I am working with Zerg and started out by doing a 2 base all in roach strategy that attempted to mass roach from the 8 minute mark until my opponent was dead. As I got higher in Gold I have noticed this not working against pretty much every Toss and Zerg opponent, it still works quite nicely against Terran. So I explored some alternate options for Toss and Zerg and noticed that most of my opponents are extremely greedy in the beginning of the game. Toss going FFE without fully walling off early and zergs doing 14/15 hatch. I was looking for a build that would punish these players while leaving me open to expanding into a roach/infestor heavy midgame build as I am not yet proficient enough to tackle 4/5 base macro in the late game.
I stumbled on a build using speedlings and am trying to see if there was any more information on it but have been unsuccessful in finding any in regards to the specific order I am doing things. My current build opens normally but gets the pool on 11 without over-pooling: 9 Overlord 9-10 Drone 11 Pool 10 Extractor 9-12 Drone 13-14 Ling 15 Queen Start Metabolic Boost here 17 Ling
From here I have the option to punish my opponent for having no defenses up or for failing to wall off, or take my natural. It also works extremely well at repelling early cheese as I have held off both a 6 pool with drones and a 2 gate proxy rush. I have seen the 11 pool - 18 hatch build mentioned, but I don't think that this build is being used to get a fast speedling for early aggression. I could be wrong about that though.
My questions are as follows: Is this a viable build plan moving up into Platinum? I have won quite a lot of games @ top tier gold (as of last night I was rank 1 Gold) with a smattering of Platinum players thrown in and most of them never felt close. Does anyone have any information on this build or any variation? Replays of pros using it, caster analysis, or a written guide of some sort? I seem to be failing at finding these things and it is making me think this build is not viable as my opponents skill level goes up. Does over-pooling really add anything? I see it a lot in written guides and I just don't see the point. I have seen guides saying that it actually minimally hurts your economy moving into the mid game.
That's all for now, thanks for the help!
You're basically doing an unrefined version of an overpool. Your build will have lots of idle larvae. I recommend opening 10g/10p/10overlord with extractor trick if you want to open early speedlings. I also recommend not doing this, except in ZvZ. Sure, you'll get a lot of free wins because Protoss doesn't wall off or pull a few probes for hold pos micro while the cannon gets up, sure you'll beat a lot of Terrans who CC first or suck at scouting and go 1rax FE with 1 depot (not walling off). But if they play even somewhat close to almost maybe nearly standard, and do anything resembling scouting, you'll flat out start 100% of games way, way behind. Except in ZvZ, 10pool baneling or 10pool 8/12 drones pulled 1 spine at each hatch hard counters hatch first. Other than that, you'll get free wins against nexus first but that's it.
Edit: Also, FFE isn't greedy. It's standard. 15 hatch with a 10 dronescout isn't greedy, it's standard. Failing to wall in is just bad play, blind 15 hatch is relying on luck. Metagame has changed a long time since the game came out, and these openings are popular and safe.
Awesome, thanks a lot. I think the players I have come up against are blind following these builds and not executing properly allowing my early zerglings to wreak havoc. I did run into a plat protoss player that properly walled off and I lost that game pretty handily, but I had been losing to toss a lot with my all-in roach as well so maybe I didn't register it as heavily in the negatives of my build as I should have. I will watch my replays and look for idle larvae, I think there is a spot around the pool->extractor where I do hit 3 larvae and that is definitely bad. Thanks again!
I'm currently a low/mid-master terran but, with the Warhound coming in HoTs and the end of strategic mech gameplay, i'm considering turning to the swarm. But, I have some problems:
First: TvZ was my better match-up, and it feels the same in ZvT. Problem: I don't really know how i'm winning: even if i'm planning macro games, i rarely goes to Hive tech and use harrassement, multi-pronged attack and tech switchs insteads. I can beat low master with that. But i'm not sure if it's a good thing to continue on this way if i reach the same level as my main Terran. Again i'm not used to Zerg production and i think i have too few drones all games long, don't really know what the good numbers are.
Second: ZvZ. I'm not that bad in it, but i'm litlle afraid of ling/bane wars and i'm a little too greedy to avoid it and reach mid/late games. What Are the current standard timings for Lair tech, double evo etc ? Having a Bane nest really is indispensable? My builds are complete impro right now, but they feels okay, and again, i think too few drones is the reason of my losses.
Third: ZvP. I HAVEN'T GOT A CLUE about this match-up, whether i win or loose, i don't really get it. Dying or winning against 2 bases agrressions is not my problem really, i think i get it right now: spines and roach/ling waves seems to do the trick quite well. But timings for Corruptors against collo, Hive tech, upgrades 1 by 1 or 2 by 2, gas timings or anything like that could really help me. I'm also wondering when i should start spine/spores forest? End game or should I start getting them during mid game and adding them little by little? And again, drones numbers seems a litlle bit not the good ones.
On September 13 2012 12:09 Xorphene wrote: Seems Belial has been permabanned from the forum.
This thread is weaker as a result, and his input + guides will be sorely missed.
I asked a mod about it, turns out he has a worse record than I thought. I'm worried this ban will stick. RIP.
On September 13 2012 08:00 DuckNuked wrote: Hi everyone !
I'm currently a low/mid-master terran but, with the Warhound coming in HoTs and the end of strategic mech gameplay, i'm considering turning to the swarm. But, I have some problems:
First: TvZ was my better match-up, and it feels the same in ZvT. Problem: I don't really know how i'm winning: even if i'm planning macro games, i rarely goes to Hive tech and use harrassement, multi-pronged attack and tech switchs insteads. I can beat low master with that. But i'm not sure if it's a good thing to continue on this way if i reach the same level as my main Terran. Again i'm not used to Zerg production and i think i have too few drones all games long, don't really know what the good numbers are.
Second: ZvZ. I'm not that bad in it, but i'm litlle afraid of ling/bane wars and i'm a little too greedy to avoid it and reach mid/late games. What Are the current standard timings for Lair tech, double evo etc ? Having a Bane nest really is indispensable? My builds are complete impro right now, but they feels okay, and again, i think too few drones is the reason of my losses.
Third: ZvP. I HAVEN'T GOT A CLUE about this match-up, whether i win or loose, i don't really get it. Dying or winning against 2 bases agrressions is not my problem really, i think i get it right now: spines and roach/ling waves seems to do the trick quite well. But timings for Corruptors against collo, Hive tech, upgrades 1 by 1 or 2 by 2, gas timings or anything like that could really help me. I'm also wondering when i should start spine/spores forest? End game or should I start getting them during mid game and adding them little by little? And again, drones numbers seems a litlle bit not the good ones.
Search for Belial's guides, they're up-to-date (for the time being). But let me address the problems as best I can without replays:
ZvT: I have a similar habit, what I've done is trained myself to mentally note that after two remaxes on ling/bane/infestor, I should start hive and spire. Getting that kind of self-reminder or trigger is important to breaking the no-transition habit, or at least it was for me. Drones, I aim for 22/base (6 gas, 16 minerals), max of 4 bases saturated. Side note, I still have a weird habit of adding extra drones prior to an expo finishing (Terran and Protoss style), but as zerg you can actually just build units up until the expo pops and then spend one inject cycle on drones.
ZvZ: if you can split marines, you can handle ling/bane. When you see banes, split lings like you would marines, then grab 1-2 and target individual banes, then queue a move command (shift-click) away from the banes for the whole control group. This makes the split lings quickly move away, while the attacking lings will continue attacking. A run-of-the-mill timing for evo and roach warren: 40 for evo, 50 for warren, start +1 missile (so roaches two-shot lings), then add a few banes and use them to take your third. Bane nest is absolutely necessary against early ling or ling/bane all-ins. 100 gas to speed, next 50 to nest, be ready to morph 4 banes. If you scout zero aggression and a ton of drones (both! to be fully sure no all-in is coming), then you might be able to skip it. But that's a big "if".
ZvP: anti-colossus should involve adding a spire as soon as you spot the support bay. watch what comes out of the robo, so you don't overmake corruptors. start spining up as you get towards max, keep only enough minerals to up your infestor count. definitely start adding when you start hive+spire.
Master getting 60% ZvT extremly frustrating vs mech. Containing with BFHs into banshee thor. Impossible to defend even with roaches no chance against the banshee tank hellion thor combination. My roaches even melt before they reach the tanks....
On September 13 2012 17:20 xbehemoth wrote: Master getting 60% ZvT extremly frustrating vs mech. Containing with BFHs into banshee thor. Impossible to defend even with roaches no chance against the banshee tank hellion thor combination. My roaches even melt before they reach the tanks....
I'd recommend checking out NesTea vs MVP game 1 at IEM Cologne this year. While NesTea doesn't win, he uses roach drops on the army to deal with some of the issues you're talking about.
I'm told TSLSymbol does this a bunch as well, but I haven't seen the games.
On September 13 2012 17:20 xbehemoth wrote: Master getting 60% ZvT extremly frustrating vs mech. Containing with BFHs into banshee thor. Impossible to defend even with roaches no chance against the banshee tank hellion thor combination. My roaches even melt before they reach the tanks....
first of all:
queens suck vs 6+ helions. no matter what people tell you, they just suck because you will have 3 larvaequeens and at the maximum 3 extra queens that do no damage to the helions. so you have to play like prepatch and wall-off natural with 2 evos, 1 spine + 1 queen. then have roach warren + 3 queens at your 3rd if you go for 6 queen opening and add a spine there also. if you confirm banshee add 1 spore per base and if you confirm cloak add 1-2 more per base. i often see pros only getting 1 spore per base vs cloakshee and lose 6-10 drones and 2-4 queens which could easily be reflected with 2-3 spores per base and would be A LOT better mineralwise.
after confirming mech:
get +1 melee and +1 range (no carapace).
try roach drops vs 2 banshees and spire into roach drops vs the 5+ banshee mvp mech opening.
add some banes and speedlings to the drops and get some empty overlords with your drop. works wonders for me and i had huge problems vs mech also. if needed add some corruptors to deal with banshees and to mess with thor AI + corruption on thors. the banes are important vs the helions + repairing scvs, the speedlings for thors/tanks since roach only hasnt enough dps to kill a big mech army fast enough.
get a lot of bases with enough of static defense AND evos! you really need to prevent runbys with helions and extra evos are really good at denying them.
I am having a lot of troubles with terran that do the slow tank marine push just as I am finishing getting my natural set up. I was wondering if anyone could give me some tips on how to stop this from happening or how to break it if I don't catch it in time.
On September 13 2012 23:57 Akaris wrote: I am having a lot of troubles with terran that do the slow tank marine push just as I am finishing getting my natural set up. I was wondering if anyone could give me some tips on how to stop this from happening or how to break it if I don't catch it in time.
Sounds kind of an odd timing for that push as you don't really see tanks that early. Do you have a replay?
Hello everyone, I started playing Zerg again, however I have no idea what the current builds and compositions for each matchups are, so I would be grateful if you could explain briefly the standard play these days )
On September 13 2012 23:57 Akaris wrote: I am having a lot of troubles with terran that do the slow tank marine push just as I am finishing getting my natural set up. I was wondering if anyone could give me some tips on how to stop this from happening or how to break it if I don't catch it in time.
Sounds kind of an odd timing for that push as you don't really see tanks that early. Do you have a replay?
It sounds like a super old-school 1-base timing that Terran used to do on shakuras, before ghosts had even begun to gain prevalence as a late-game panacea due to snipe (pre-nerf, remember?). The only thing to do is see it coming and stop it from sieging right below your natural, I was never able to break it even using queens to soak shots and running in with lings. Waiting for banes just means the tank count has gone from 2 to 4.
Anyway, a 5:30 overlord scout should see a serious number of marines, and a tank with a twitching tech lab on the factory. And no CC anywhere. So without seeing a replay, I would recommend just being active with your scouting, send a ling up the ramp to peek and sac an overlord. Especially with the current trend towards 3OC and hellion (i.e. reactor on factory until 7min or later), it should be an easy tell from the first ling scout. At which point you want to get lings, and add one gas for speed. Have a ling at his ramp and be ready to force him to siege as much as possible. If he's trying to reinforce, pick them off with your lings as best you can. With the 1-2 extra injects this haranguing (I use this weird word because "harass" typically refers to something else) buys you, you can smash him as he crosses the halfway point.
Of course, I could be entirely mistaken as to what build he's talking about. This is why replays are important, people.
On September 14 2012 01:21 Chef0 wrote: Hello everyone, I started playing Zerg again, however I have no idea what the current builds and compositions for each matchups are, so I would be grateful if you could explain briefly the standard play these days )
Oh fun, these crop up every week.
ZvT: 15hatch no matter what, 14p if you scout 11/11, otherwise 16p. Go to 4 queens, watch for his FE. If he's going 1rax FE, try to take your third once your 3rd and 4th queens pop out. You'll need to watch if he goes hellions or marines first, then banshee or tanks for the followup. Take gas as needed, generally still 2-3 geysers at 40+ supply. Double evo for upgrades, but first gas spending goes to lair then ling speed. Be aware that lots of ladder Terrans go mech, in which case you need roaches, and you should be checking for mech vs bio... well, ASAP, but definitely by the time your +1/+1 is done, because you'll need to switch to missile attack upgrades if going roach vs mech. There's a lot of debate about mech at the moment, a lot of people here prefer roach drops, I like the tech circle route (roach to force tanks, trade armies, mutas to force thors, trade armies, lings to force hellions, trade armies, repeat) and counterattacking (take far expos, add a few spines, fast roach and burrowed infestor guerrilla warfare). I am also hearing that neural parasite, roaches, and spines will be able to take on a mech army directly, but have yet to try this.
ZvZ: 10drone scout for early pool (14pool if you see anything 10 or earlier, and cancel hatch I think), 15hatch, 15-16p, 15-17g. Double queen to block ramp, single spine at front of natural, within range of blocked ramp and as much of the minerals as possible. First 100 gas to ling speed, next 50 to bane nest (I usually take one drone off gas here). You want 4 lings ready to morph to banes as an anti-all-in. Add evo at 40 (here I add drone back to gas, take 2nd and 3rd gas), roach warren at 50, get +1 missile. Try to take third, you'll want 4 banes there as anti-ling defense, roaches alone won't cut it for another minute or so. Watch for 2base tech to mutas (the tell is many spines at the front of his natural, 3+ I guess), if mutas you'll want to go straight to infestors and add queens, instead of just pumping roaches. If he's going for his 3rd, start adding infestors as soon as you can afford while droning up your third, watch the map for fast roaches and lings zooming around.
ZvP: 14p, 16hatch if possible (pylon block blah blah), 3rd hatch whenever you prefer (I think I get it at 32-33, which is later than most; check pro vods or replays, especially DRG or Stephano). Scout for natural gas timings, and where CB is going. A moving forge means you'll need roaches earlier, lings will die too fast to +1 zealots. Read Belial's guide for the full gamut of what the timings on gas mean. Sac overlord at 6:30ish. First 100 gas to lair, 2nd 100 to ling speed, 3rd 100 to missile attack if nothing is coming (gas to roach otherwise). Some argue for melee attack, I like my roaches to have some weight behind them, and I like to be able to threaten a hydra timing, too.
Please criticize me if I'm off, especially ZvZ. This is high diamond-low masters, though I've definitely been slipping lately.
On September 13 2012 23:57 Akaris wrote: I am having a lot of troubles with terran that do the slow tank marine push just as I am finishing getting my natural set up. I was wondering if anyone could give me some tips on how to stop this from happening or how to break it if I don't catch it in time.
Sounds kind of an odd timing for that push as you don't really see tanks that early. Do you have a replay?
It sounds like a super old-school 1-base timing that Terran used to do on shakuras, before ghosts had even begun to gain prevalence as a late-game panacea due to snipe (pre-nerf, remember?). The only thing to do is see it coming and stop it from sieging right below your natural, I was never able to break it even using queens to soak shots and running in with lings. Waiting for banes just means the tank count has gone from 2 to 4.
Anyway, a 5:30 overlord scout should see a serious number of marines, and a tank with a twitching tech lab on the factory. And no CC anywhere. So without seeing a replay, I would recommend just being active with your scouting, send a ling up the ramp to peek and sac an overlord. Especially with the current trend towards 3OC and hellion (i.e. reactor on factory until 7min or later), it should be an easy tell from the first ling scout. At which point you want to get lings, and add one gas for speed. Have a ling at his ramp and be ready to force him to siege as much as possible. If he's trying to reinforce, pick them off with your lings as best you can. With the 1-2 extra injects this haranguing (I use this weird word because "harass" typically refers to something else) buys you, you can smash him as he crosses the halfway point.
Of course, I could be entirely mistaken as to what build he's talking about. This is why replays are important, people.
Yeah I was thinking it might be one of those 1 base rushes as well. Maps have gotten a lot bigger than steppes of war and close position metal so I don't think the push is actually as potent as I remember. That and modern Zerg builds having more refined macro and able to produce more units to defend.
EPT
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