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On September 13 2012 17:20 xbehemoth wrote: Master getting 60% ZvT extremly frustrating vs mech. Containing with BFHs into banshee thor. Impossible to defend even with roaches no chance against the banshee tank hellion thor combination. My roaches even melt before they reach the tanks....
first of all:
queens suck vs 6+ helions. no matter what people tell you, they just suck because you will have 3 larvaequeens and at the maximum 3 extra queens that do no damage to the helions. so you have to play like prepatch and wall-off natural with 2 evos, 1 spine + 1 queen. then have roach warren + 3 queens at your 3rd if you go for 6 queen opening and add a spine there also. if you confirm banshee add 1 spore per base and if you confirm cloak add 1-2 more per base. i often see pros only getting 1 spore per base vs cloakshee and lose 6-10 drones and 2-4 queens which could easily be reflected with 2-3 spores per base and would be A LOT better mineralwise.
after confirming mech:
get +1 melee and +1 range (no carapace).
try roach drops vs 2 banshees and spire into roach drops vs the 5+ banshee mvp mech opening.
add some banes and speedlings to the drops and get some empty overlords with your drop. works wonders for me and i had huge problems vs mech also. if needed add some corruptors to deal with banshees and to mess with thor AI + corruption on thors. the banes are important vs the helions + repairing scvs, the speedlings for thors/tanks since roach only hasnt enough dps to kill a big mech army fast enough.
get a lot of bases with enough of static defense AND evos! you really need to prevent runbys with helions and extra evos are really good at denying them.
I'm having problems with mech, too, so I have some questions about what you're saying, because it's quite interesting.
Whether or not queens suck vs hellions (certainly vs 12+), since it's mech you'll want roaches fighting the hellions. The problem becomes the banshees as well, because both will hit before you really have roaches, then you're trying to use 6 queens to fight 1-2 banshees while holding off hellions. Do you split your queens to do this? I am walling pretty heavily now because of problems with hellions running into my third or natural while the banshees play with queens in my main.
+1 melee +1 range, really? I am not too surprised, getting that +1 on lings really matters against tanks and thors, but I just want to make sure, because just 1 extra carapace on roaches means hellions start to become useless against them even with splash, just as mutas start to suck against +2 armor marines.
You don't use mutas against banshees?
How many lings and banes are you getting? I usually opt for maybe 12 lings and 6 banes, and I use them on a separate hotkey as a kind of cavalry, swinging in after hellions go down (if I don't target-fire with roaches) or to take out repairing scvs after the roaches are already soaking shots. I still generally lose to a mech army, though, it's often just too efficient at even 4 thors+many hellions+no tanks against roaches.
On September 14 2012 01:21 Chef0 wrote: Hello everyone, I started playing Zerg again, however I have no idea what the current builds and compositions for each matchups are, so I would be grateful if you could explain briefly the standard play these days )
Oh fun, these crop up every week.
ZvT: 15hatch no matter what, 14p if you scout 11/11, otherwise 16p. Go to 4 queens, watch for his FE. If he's going 1rax FE, try to take your third once your 3rd and 4th queens pop out. You'll need to watch if he goes hellions or marines first, then banshee or tanks for the followup. Take gas as needed, generally still 2-3 geysers at 40+ supply. Double evo for upgrades, but first gas spending goes to lair then ling speed. Be aware that lots of ladder Terrans go mech, in which case you need roaches, and you should be checking for mech vs bio... well, ASAP, but definitely by the time your +1/+1 is done, because you'll need to switch to missile attack upgrades if going roach vs mech. There's a lot of debate about mech at the moment, a lot of people here prefer roach drops, I like the tech circle route (roach to force tanks, trade armies, mutas to force thors, trade armies, lings to force hellions, trade armies, repeat) and counterattacking (take far expos, add a few spines, fast roach and burrowed infestor guerrilla warfare). I am also hearing that neural parasite, roaches, and spines will be able to take on a mech army directly, but have yet to try this.
ZvZ: 10drone scout for early pool (14pool if you see anything 10 or earlier, and cancel hatch I think), 15hatch, 15-16p, 15-17g. Double queen to block ramp, single spine at front of natural, within range of blocked ramp and as much of the minerals as possible. First 100 gas to ling speed, next 50 to bane nest (I usually take one drone off gas here). You want 4 lings ready to morph to banes as an anti-all-in. Add evo at 40 (here I add drone back to gas, take 2nd and 3rd gas), roach warren at 50, get +1 missile. Try to take third, you'll want 4 banes there as anti-ling defense, roaches alone won't cut it for another minute or so. Watch for 2base tech to mutas (the tell is many spines at the front of his natural, 3+ I guess), if mutas you'll want to go straight to infestors and add queens, instead of just pumping roaches. If he's going for his 3rd, start adding infestors as soon as you can afford while droning up your third, watch the map for fast roaches and lings zooming around.
ZvP: 14p, 16hatch if possible (pylon block blah blah), 3rd hatch whenever you prefer (I think I get it at 32-33, which is later than most; check pro vods or replays, especially DRG or Stephano). Scout for natural gas timings, and where CB is going. A moving forge means you'll need roaches earlier, lings will die too fast to +1 zealots. Read Belial's guide for the full gamut of what the timings on gas mean. Sac overlord at 6:30ish. First 100 gas to lair, 2nd 100 to ling speed, 3rd 100 to missile attack if nothing is coming (gas to roach otherwise). Some argue for melee attack, I like my roaches to have some weight behind them, and I like to be able to threaten a hydra timing, too.
Please criticize me if I'm off, especially ZvZ. This is high diamond-low masters, though I've definitely been slipping lately.
Sincerely, thank you : ) You threw light in the tunnel, because I have forgotten almost everything about Zerg, and thanks to your post I am beginning to remember and learn things.Once again, thank you ^^
When a Terran goes CC first into 3x OC banshee harass into mech, how many bases can I get away with before his push? BFH have A LOT of map control, so is it worth fighting over a fourth to help hold off his thor/BFH/banshee push?
Ok, I'm a high master zerg and right now I don't have a clue of how to play zvt, I am tired of losing it. Its not about the metagame, i just seem to lose games that I had a good chance of winning. I don't think its a problem with the metagaming. It's just that in the late game i can never win, and I assure that its not a macro problem.
What I do: 6 queen build with a relatively fast third. When the timing of hellions come I make 4/5 roaches just to defend it and one spore at each base to defend banshees. At the same time i start double upgrades and speed. Then i just drone drone drone, get my 4th when the times come, and then things kinda start to getting messed up. I really cant go safely to broodlords (I think) because of drop abuses, and my ultras simply die to marauder tank. Maybe I'm way too passive, I don't know, I just can't win vs marines marauder tank. Maybe its bad positioning, I don't know.
(In this specific game my drop defense wasn't that good, but i guarantee you guys that this is not the problem, I normally can defend drops bettter, and even when the terran doesnt harass with drops I still lose to marine marauder tank).
On September 14 2012 09:40 Luzun wrote: Ok, I'm a high master zerg and right now I don't have a clue of how to play zvt, I am tired of losing it. Its not about the metagame, i just seem to lose games that I had a good chance of winning. I don't think its a problem with the metagaming. It's just that in the late game i can never win, and I assure that its not a macro problem.
What I do: 6 queen build with a relatively fast third. When the timing of hellions come I make 4/5 roaches just to defend it and one spore at each base to defend banshees. At the same time i start double upgrades and speed. Then i just drone drone drone, get my 4th when the times come, and then things kinda start to getting messed up. I really cant go safely to broodlords (I think) because of drop abuses, and my ultras simply die to marauder tank. Maybe I'm way too passive, I don't know, I just can't win vs marines marauder tank. Maybe its bad positioning, I don't know.
(In this specific game my drop defense wasn't that good, but i guarantee you guys that this is not the problem, I normally can defend drops bettter, and even when the terran doesnt harass with drops I still lose to marine marauder tank).
I'm way lower level than you, and watching the replay was pretty cool. Honestly, the only mistake imo was getting your spire so late (21:00). Ultra/bane/ling/infestor is good, but it does lose to rine/rauder/tank, especially when it's max upgrades. I figured your loss would be due to cost inefficiency, but by some miracle you're ahead in units lost up to this point.
You should probably go double spire as soon as your ultras will keep you alive, then you can get greater spire/+1 carapace, and honestly you should try to win with a 4-5 base broodlord timing.
I haven't finished watching the replay, but you probably lose because you mine out because it's Ohana. For improved cost efficiency, you should've scouted/tried to run some lings by to his 4 o'clock expo; it was completely undefended forever. Lots of free SCV/mule kills.
I'm really curious if anyone else has some insight into this game. I often have similar troubles killing a Terran, even if I kill a push.
Btw, I think GSL maps like whirlwind hard counter these problems -- there's so many bases that you can literally be on like 8 bases vs 4, and then you can actually win with any unit composition (except mass roach lolol). Ohana is so small that there's only 5 bases, and 5 base vs 5 base a good Terran should win.
On September 13 2012 17:20 xbehemoth wrote: Master getting 60% ZvT extremly frustrating vs mech. Containing with BFHs into banshee thor. Impossible to defend even with roaches no chance against the banshee tank hellion thor combination. My roaches even melt before they reach the tanks....
first of all:
queens suck vs 6+ helions. no matter what people tell you, they just suck because you will have 3 larvaequeens and at the maximum 3 extra queens that do no damage to the helions. so you have to play like prepatch and wall-off natural with 2 evos, 1 spine + 1 queen. then have roach warren + 3 queens at your 3rd if you go for 6 queen opening and add a spine there also. if you confirm banshee add 1 spore per base and if you confirm cloak add 1-2 more per base. i often see pros only getting 1 spore per base vs cloakshee and lose 6-10 drones and 2-4 queens which could easily be reflected with 2-3 spores per base and would be A LOT better mineralwise.
after confirming mech:
get +1 melee and +1 range (no carapace).
try roach drops vs 2 banshees and spire into roach drops vs the 5+ banshee mvp mech opening.
add some banes and speedlings to the drops and get some empty overlords with your drop. works wonders for me and i had huge problems vs mech also. if needed add some corruptors to deal with banshees and to mess with thor AI + corruption on thors. the banes are important vs the helions + repairing scvs, the speedlings for thors/tanks since roach only hasnt enough dps to kill a big mech army fast enough.
get a lot of bases with enough of static defense AND evos! you really need to prevent runbys with helions and extra evos are really good at denying them.
I'm having problems with mech, too, so I have some questions about what you're saying, because it's quite interesting.
Whether or not queens suck vs hellions (certainly vs 12+), since it's mech you'll want roaches fighting the hellions. The problem becomes the banshees as well, because both will hit before you really have roaches, then you're trying to use 6 queens to fight 1-2 banshees while holding off hellions. Do you split your queens to do this? I am walling pretty heavily now because of problems with hellions running into my third or natural while the banshees play with queens in my main.
+1 melee +1 range, really? I am not too surprised, getting that +1 on lings really matters against tanks and thors, but I just want to make sure, because just 1 extra carapace on roaches means hellions start to become useless against them even with splash, just as mutas start to suck against +2 armor marines.
You don't use mutas against banshees?
How many lings and banes are you getting? I usually opt for maybe 12 lings and 6 banes, and I use them on a separate hotkey as a kind of cavalry, swinging in after hellions go down (if I don't target-fire with roaches) or to take out repairing scvs after the roaches are already soaking shots. I still generally lose to a mech army, though, it's often just too efficient at even 4 thors+many hellions+no tanks against roaches.
As long as Terran is doing a 'standard' opening (like 1 rax FE into hellion/banshee, of course they are going to go fast third if they do such a macro opening into harass opener, of course, make sure to see the third) I won't even make a roach warren vs Mech play. There's no reason not to make extra queens, and there's also nothing wrong with pulling all the queens and delaying a few injects to kill terran's army when he gives you the lucky privilege of an army donation without you having to even leave your base.
Also, you have spores when banshees are out, re-root them if he is moving from harass, to trying to clearly fight you straight up (which many terrans do when they have a large enough hellion fleet out). You also made a spine at nat and third because of the hellions, you should add one a couple more when you realize he's meching/dedicating to hellions/BF is out.
What I do, is hotkey all queens to 6. Then, I hotkey those 3 non-injecting queens, to 2 (this is what I use for infestors, infestors own hellion/banshee, but until infestors are out, I have to rely on queens, so it's okay to use this hotkey until then). If there's a big battle, like terran is willfully trying to lose all his army, I'll pull all queens instead of just 3 creep queens. Again, no reason not to make extra queens, you should also uproot a few spores and spines, and you should have a ton of speedlings by the time terran has 6+ hellions, even with gas as late as 55.
I rely on a lot of ling/infestor to stay alive in the midgame (Check out my ZvT Guide in my profile, there's specifically a replay where I showcase holding a very large thor/tank/hellion push that comes before broods come out, using IT spam, queens, and lings, because I made no roaches, there's no way he could push with a large enough army that could beat my ling/infestor/queen army, or push with such a large army before broods are out, a replay I also have in there).
Queens are great against 6 hellions, when you have a spine, creep spread, transfuse, and why are you fighting with only 3 queens? You have 6 queens, use them! Also, it shouldn't be just 3 queens, it should be 4 - your macro hatch isn't going to be done for a while anyways, and there's no reason you can't make the macro hatch at your third if it's REALLY an issue.
Ultras and broodlords are both amazing against mech, so either one of them is viable, personalyl I like to rush broods and then transition into ultras if terran loses his tanks or goes into ravens/heavy vikings (even against mass viking i prefer more broods than ultras most of the time since he has no decent aoe with no ravens, but i will sometimes switch to ultras in such a case, but only if it's against mech, but i will def switch to ultra if he goes ravens).
But if you dont make roaches, you should easily have hive tech out against mech before his big push (or, if he does push, you should handle it easily with ling/IT spam/queen, which are ridiculously strong against lower numbers of tanks since no way he can afford mass tank so quickly, or, if he goes so tank heavy, IT spam and ling flanks will just wreck him before he has critical mass).
In zvp, what is the most economical, and stable opening, for a fast 3rd? I might add that I tend to go for a stephano like push at the tosses 3rd. I usually open 14 pool 16 hatch, queen 2lingpairs, 20 3rd. Is this ok?
On September 13 2012 17:20 xbehemoth wrote: Master getting 60% ZvT extremly frustrating vs mech. Containing with BFHs into banshee thor. Impossible to defend even with roaches no chance against the banshee tank hellion thor combination. My roaches even melt before they reach the tanks....
first of all:
queens suck vs 6+ helions. no matter what people tell you, they just suck because you will have 3 larvaequeens and at the maximum 3 extra queens that do no damage to the helions. so you have to play like prepatch and wall-off natural with 2 evos, 1 spine + 1 queen. then have roach warren + 3 queens at your 3rd if you go for 6 queen opening and add a spine there also. if you confirm banshee add 1 spore per base and if you confirm cloak add 1-2 more per base. i often see pros only getting 1 spore per base vs cloakshee and lose 6-10 drones and 2-4 queens which could easily be reflected with 2-3 spores per base and would be A LOT better mineralwise.
after confirming mech:
get +1 melee and +1 range (no carapace).
try roach drops vs 2 banshees and spire into roach drops vs the 5+ banshee mvp mech opening.
add some banes and speedlings to the drops and get some empty overlords with your drop. works wonders for me and i had huge problems vs mech also. if needed add some corruptors to deal with banshees and to mess with thor AI + corruption on thors. the banes are important vs the helions + repairing scvs, the speedlings for thors/tanks since roach only hasnt enough dps to kill a big mech army fast enough.
get a lot of bases with enough of static defense AND evos! you really need to prevent runbys with helions and extra evos are really good at denying them.
I'm having problems with mech, too, so I have some questions about what you're saying, because it's quite interesting.
Whether or not queens suck vs hellions (certainly vs 12+), since it's mech you'll want roaches fighting the hellions. The problem becomes the banshees as well, because both will hit before you really have roaches, then you're trying to use 6 queens to fight 1-2 banshees while holding off hellions. Do you split your queens to do this? I am walling pretty heavily now because of problems with hellions running into my third or natural while the banshees play with queens in my main.
+1 melee +1 range, really? I am not too surprised, getting that +1 on lings really matters against tanks and thors, but I just want to make sure, because just 1 extra carapace on roaches means hellions start to become useless against them even with splash, just as mutas start to suck against +2 armor marines.
You don't use mutas against banshees?
How many lings and banes are you getting? I usually opt for maybe 12 lings and 6 banes, and I use them on a separate hotkey as a kind of cavalry, swinging in after hellions go down (if I don't target-fire with roaches) or to take out repairing scvs after the roaches are already soaking shots. I still generally lose to a mech army, though, it's often just too efficient at even 4 thors+many hellions+no tanks against roaches.
As long as Terran is doing a 'standard' opening (like 1 rax FE into hellion/banshee, of course they are going to go fast third if they do such a macro opening into harass opener, of course, make sure to see the third) I won't even make a roach warren vs Mech play. There's no reason not to make extra queens, and there's also nothing wrong with pulling all the queens and delaying a few injects to kill terran's army when he gives you the lucky privilege of an army donation without you having to even leave your base.
Also, you have spores when banshees are out, re-root them if he is moving from harass, to trying to clearly fight you straight up (which many terrans do when they have a large enough hellion fleet out). You also made a spine at nat and third because of the hellions, you should add one a couple more when you realize he's meching/dedicating to hellions/BF is out.
What I do, is hotkey all queens to 6. Then, I hotkey those 3 non-injecting queens, to 2 (this is what I use for infestors, infestors own hellion/banshee, but until infestors are out, I have to rely on queens, so it's okay to use this hotkey until then). If there's a big battle, like terran is willfully trying to lose all his army, I'll pull all queens instead of just 3 creep queens. Again, no reason not to make extra queens, you should also uproot a few spores and spines, and you should have a ton of speedlings by the time terran has 6+ hellions, even with gas as late as 55.
I rely on a lot of ling/infestor to stay alive in the midgame (Check out my ZvT Guide in my profile, there's specifically a replay where I showcase holding a very large thor/tank/hellion push that comes before broods come out, using IT spam, queens, and lings, because I made no roaches, there's no way he could push with a large enough army that could beat my ling/infestor/queen army, or push with such a large army before broods are out, a replay I also have in there).
Queens are great against 6 hellions, when you have a spine, creep spread, transfuse, and why are you fighting with only 3 queens? You have 6 queens, use them! Also, it shouldn't be just 3 queens, it should be 4 - your macro hatch isn't going to be done for a while anyways, and there's no reason you can't make the macro hatch at your third if it's REALLY an issue.
Ultras and broodlords are both amazing against mech, so either one of them is viable, personalyl I like to rush broods and then transition into ultras if terran loses his tanks or goes into ravens/heavy vikings (even against mass viking i prefer more broods than ultras most of the time since he has no decent aoe with no ravens, but i will sometimes switch to ultras in such a case, but only if it's against mech, but i will def switch to ultra if he goes ravens).
But if you dont make roaches, you should easily have hive tech out against mech before his big push (or, if he does push, you should handle it easily with ling/IT spam/queen, which are ridiculously strong against lower numbers of tanks since no way he can afford mass tank so quickly, or, if he goes so tank heavy, IT spam and ling flanks will just wreck him before he has critical mass).
i like the mass queen approach but you will either need some spines at your 3rd + 2-3 extra evos with it or some roaches. otherwise helions will just runby and roast drones. with a 55 gas you wont have speed until he has at least 10-12 helions. so spines/evos or some roaches are a must. missing injects is not a good option imo since thats a lot of lost drones in a stage where your economy explodes. you dont want that to happen so pulling all 6 queens is what the terran wants since he can just make you pull all queens (if you got no spines or roaches) and either retreat with zero damage (but damage done to your eco) or even runby since helions are much faster then queens. therefore having 1 queen main, 1 queen natural, 1 queen to block natural and 3 queens at the 3rd seems the best way to go and then transfer drones as soon as your roaches/spines finish. going for mass queens after that while teching to infestor seems a nice idea though, will try that.
as for the +1 melee +1 range thing: since thors and tanks get around +5 (dont know exact number) per attack upgrade your +1 on carapace wont do much. thats why you go for more damage yourself.
as for mutas vs mass banshee play: you build the spire if you confirm continued banshee production and add some corruptors then. its like going ling/bling/infestor vs bio and adding some corruptors to kill medivacs (since otherwise they get 15+ medivacs and outheal fungal). you dont want to overproduce them, just some to deal with banshees. the only time i go muta is if i see he has absolutely no defense up (no or only 1 thor and no turrets). otherwise its a gamble and delays your tech quite a bit.
On September 13 2012 17:20 xbehemoth wrote: Master getting 60% ZvT extremly frustrating vs mech. Containing with BFHs into banshee thor. Impossible to defend even with roaches no chance against the banshee tank hellion thor combination. My roaches even melt before they reach the tanks....
first of all:
queens suck vs 6+ helions. no matter what people tell you, they just suck because you will have 3 larvaequeens and at the maximum 3 extra queens that do no damage to the helions. so you have to play like prepatch and wall-off natural with 2 evos, 1 spine + 1 queen. then have roach warren + 3 queens at your 3rd if you go for 6 queen opening and add a spine there also. if you confirm banshee add 1 spore per base and if you confirm cloak add 1-2 more per base. i often see pros only getting 1 spore per base vs cloakshee and lose 6-10 drones and 2-4 queens which could easily be reflected with 2-3 spores per base and would be A LOT better mineralwise.
after confirming mech:
get +1 melee and +1 range (no carapace).
try roach drops vs 2 banshees and spire into roach drops vs the 5+ banshee mvp mech opening.
add some banes and speedlings to the drops and get some empty overlords with your drop. works wonders for me and i had huge problems vs mech also. if needed add some corruptors to deal with banshees and to mess with thor AI + corruption on thors. the banes are important vs the helions + repairing scvs, the speedlings for thors/tanks since roach only hasnt enough dps to kill a big mech army fast enough.
get a lot of bases with enough of static defense AND evos! you really need to prevent runbys with helions and extra evos are really good at denying them.
I'm having problems with mech, too, so I have some questions about what you're saying, because it's quite interesting.
Whether or not queens suck vs hellions (certainly vs 12+), since it's mech you'll want roaches fighting the hellions. The problem becomes the banshees as well, because both will hit before you really have roaches, then you're trying to use 6 queens to fight 1-2 banshees while holding off hellions. Do you split your queens to do this? I am walling pretty heavily now because of problems with hellions running into my third or natural while the banshees play with queens in my main.
+1 melee +1 range, really? I am not too surprised, getting that +1 on lings really matters against tanks and thors, but I just want to make sure, because just 1 extra carapace on roaches means hellions start to become useless against them even with splash, just as mutas start to suck against +2 armor marines.
You don't use mutas against banshees?
How many lings and banes are you getting? I usually opt for maybe 12 lings and 6 banes, and I use them on a separate hotkey as a kind of cavalry, swinging in after hellions go down (if I don't target-fire with roaches) or to take out repairing scvs after the roaches are already soaking shots. I still generally lose to a mech army, though, it's often just too efficient at even 4 thors+many hellions+no tanks against roaches.
As long as Terran is doing a 'standard' opening (like 1 rax FE into hellion/banshee, of course they are going to go fast third if they do such a macro opening into harass opener, of course, make sure to see the third) I won't even make a roach warren vs Mech play. There's no reason not to make extra queens, and there's also nothing wrong with pulling all the queens and delaying a few injects to kill terran's army when he gives you the lucky privilege of an army donation without you having to even leave your base.
Also, you have spores when banshees are out, re-root them if he is moving from harass, to trying to clearly fight you straight up (which many terrans do when they have a large enough hellion fleet out). You also made a spine at nat and third because of the hellions, you should add one a couple more when you realize he's meching/dedicating to hellions/BF is out.
What I do, is hotkey all queens to 6. Then, I hotkey those 3 non-injecting queens, to 2 (this is what I use for infestors, infestors own hellion/banshee, but until infestors are out, I have to rely on queens, so it's okay to use this hotkey until then). If there's a big battle, like terran is willfully trying to lose all his army, I'll pull all queens instead of just 3 creep queens. Again, no reason not to make extra queens, you should also uproot a few spores and spines, and you should have a ton of speedlings by the time terran has 6+ hellions, even with gas as late as 55.
I rely on a lot of ling/infestor to stay alive in the midgame (Check out my ZvT Guide in my profile, there's specifically a replay where I showcase holding a very large thor/tank/hellion push that comes before broods come out, using IT spam, queens, and lings, because I made no roaches, there's no way he could push with a large enough army that could beat my ling/infestor/queen army, or push with such a large army before broods are out, a replay I also have in there).
Queens are great against 6 hellions, when you have a spine, creep spread, transfuse, and why are you fighting with only 3 queens? You have 6 queens, use them! Also, it shouldn't be just 3 queens, it should be 4 - your macro hatch isn't going to be done for a while anyways, and there's no reason you can't make the macro hatch at your third if it's REALLY an issue.
Ultras and broodlords are both amazing against mech, so either one of them is viable, personalyl I like to rush broods and then transition into ultras if terran loses his tanks or goes into ravens/heavy vikings (even against mass viking i prefer more broods than ultras most of the time since he has no decent aoe with no ravens, but i will sometimes switch to ultras in such a case, but only if it's against mech, but i will def switch to ultra if he goes ravens).
But if you dont make roaches, you should easily have hive tech out against mech before his big push (or, if he does push, you should handle it easily with ling/IT spam/queen, which are ridiculously strong against lower numbers of tanks since no way he can afford mass tank so quickly, or, if he goes so tank heavy, IT spam and ling flanks will just wreck him before he has critical mass).
i like the mass queen approach but you will either need some spines at your 3rd + 2-3 extra evos with it or some roaches. otherwise helions will just runby and roast drones. with a 55 gas you wont have speed until he has at least 10-12 helions. so spines/evos or some roaches are a must. missing injects is not a good option imo since thats a lot of lost drones in a stage where your economy explodes. you dont want that to happen so pulling all 6 queens is what the terran wants since he can just make you pull all queens (if you got no spines or roaches) and either retreat with zero damage (but damage done to your eco) or even runby since helions are much faster then queens. therefore having 1 queen main, 1 queen natural, 1 queen to block natural and 3 queens at the 3rd seems the best way to go and then transfer drones as soon as your roaches/spines finish. going for mass queens after that while teching to infestor seems a nice idea though, will try that.
as for the +1 melee +1 range thing: since thors and tanks get around +5 (dont know exact number) per attack upgrade your +1 on carapace wont do much. thats why you go for more damage yourself.
as for mutas vs mass banshee play: you build the spire if you confirm continued banshee production and add some corruptors then. its like going ling/bling/infestor vs bio and adding some corruptors to kill medivacs (since otherwise they get 15+ medivacs and outheal fungal). you dont want to overproduce them, just some to deal with banshees. the only time i go muta is if i see he has absolutely no defense up (no or only 1 thor and no turrets). otherwise its a gamble and delays your tech quite a bit.
You only need a single spine at your third, and I usually only do that if I have to leave 2 queens to block the ramp at the nat. You shouldn't have to make extra evo's, 4 queens and a spine at your third and no hellion is going to get close to it. 10 hellions won't do much against 4 queens and a spine, and especially 6 queens if he pushes the issue. You should have speed in time.
Of course, you will need extra spines if you see it's mech play or terran makes 10+ hellions (which is rare, but if you do see it, you should respond). Against mech I'll put about 3-5 spines at new expansions as I get my broods. I've only really had to make extra queens when I saw terran mass tanks for a hellion/tank push.
Eventually you'll have ling/infestor, and hellions won't really do anything against that. You aren't relying on queens forever.
I seem to be trading inefficiently with Terran in the mid-game and after analyzing my games, i'm pretty sure it's because i'm not droning enough in the early-game.
Assuming a macro-opening on both sides, what are typical 6-8 minute drone numbers?
Help me vs toss please. I'm plat and i have no idea what to do. All Toss does it 1 or 2 base mass gate all in me. I have now idea how to stop it when its fucking stupid
On September 14 2012 23:27 TTOMZ wrote: Help me vs toss please. I'm plat and i have no idea what to do. All Toss does it 1 or 2 base mass gate all in me. I have now idea how to stop it when its fucking stupid
On September 14 2012 23:27 TTOMZ wrote: Help me vs toss please. I'm plat and i have no idea what to do. All Toss does it 1 or 2 base mass gate all in me. I have now idea how to stop it when its fucking stupid
What are you trying? Replays please.
I just normally do the quick 3rd (around 4 mins 15) and then drone up get the roach waren and evo at 7 mins, You know stephano style
On September 14 2012 23:13 Xorphene wrote: I seem to be trading inefficiently with Terran in the mid-game and after analyzing my games, i'm pretty sure it's because i'm not droning enough in the early-game.
Assuming a macro-opening on both sides, what are typical 6-8 minute drone numbers?
Looking at my random replay 30 at 6:00 and 44 at 8:00, thats when doing a fast muta build so if you open gasless should be a bit more.
TTOMZ upload a replay that could help us to see your macro mistakes. Right now I can just say drone harder, make roach warren at 6:30 if you dont see gases at natural and scout for pylons (make units when you see him trying to build some)
On September 14 2012 19:26 gronnelg wrote: In zvp, what is the most economical, and stable opening, for a fast 3rd? I might add that I tend to go for a stephano like push at the tosses 3rd. I usually open 14 pool 16 hatch, queen 2lingpairs, 20 3rd. Is this ok?
The version i see people do most is this 15 pool 16 hatch overlord queen than 1 pair of lings drone to 22 start second queen ( should be at 24 now) Take your third at 24
A lot of people like doing this version instead of throwing your 3rd hatch down at 21 or less because you don't cut the 2nd queen.
On September 14 2012 23:13 Xorphene wrote: I seem to be trading inefficiently with Terran in the mid-game and after analyzing my games, i'm pretty sure it's because i'm not droning enough in the early-game.
Assuming a macro-opening on both sides, what are typical 6-8 minute drone numbers?
Looking at my random replay 30 at 6:00 and 44 at 8:00, thats when doing a fast muta build so if you open gasless should be a bit more.
TTOMZ upload a replay that could help us to see your macro mistakes. Right now I can just say drone harder, make roach warren at 6:30 if you dont see gases at natural and scout for pylons (make units when you see him trying to build some)
Opening gasless you'll have 4 queens and 36 drones at 5:30 and start a hatch.
EPT
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