EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 380
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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AndySCWilson
43 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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AndySCWilson
43 Posts
I understand how to counter a ling all-in easy enough. But when my banes can't kill his lings I get rolled. | ||
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734pot
Australia294 Posts
On September 15 2012 19:05 AndySCWilson wrote: So you just counter with an assload amount of banelings? Do you have enough gas to do that? Especially with lings streaming in? I understand how to counter a ling all-in easy enough. But when my banes can't kill his lings I get rolled. Your banes almost kill their lings leaving them on 1 HP (I think). So you still need lings to defend against it. If you scout their lack of drone production early enough then you shouldn't have too much trouble against it. Sim citying your natural with evolution chambers, spines and queens helps a lot as well. | ||
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Galock
United Kingdom3 Posts
http://localhostr.com/SxSZ7D1yb7yE | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
On September 15 2012 19:05 AndySCWilson wrote: So you just counter with an assload amount of banelings? Do you have enough gas to do that? Especially with lings streaming in? I understand how to counter a ling all-in easy enough. But when my banes can't kill his lings I get rolled. Force him to engage in some kind of choke or on a ramp so that you are fighting with even numbers of zerglings even if he has way more. Use the banelings for zone control more than anything else. They don't kill his lings, but they take them all to 1 hp, so you still need zerglings of your own, and you need to contain the engagement so that he can't surround your lings or run past you if the banelings run out. queens are your best friend. just like countering a ling all-in, except it's later and he invested more in it, so you need to invest a bit more in defending it. | ||
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Stardroid
United Kingdom159 Posts
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Stardroid
United Kingdom159 Posts
 so I'm always taking that third right? never macro hatch first? | ||
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Gendo
United Kingdom216 Posts
What's a good supply count at 8min? i get constantly 60 including 4 queens and 2 lings in plat league is that good? cause i dont really know how to squeeze more...i dont transfer drones, i rally to the nearest hatch when saturated right? like main>natural>third | ||
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Gendo
United Kingdom216 Posts
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
It will answer all your questions, such as supply count and macro hatch timing. I would answer for you, but I don't know the supply count / macro hatch timing of a 2-base Zerg, only 3-base. | ||
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Gendo
United Kingdom216 Posts
On September 16 2012 08:50 Salivanth wrote: Gendo: 2-base ling-infestor style is a very outdated style, and you pretty much have to go fast third or all-in (vs. FFE at least) if you want to play standard. I'd advise looking at Belial's ZvP guide for standard 3-base play. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038) It will answer all your questions, such as supply count and macro hatch timing. I would answer for you, but I don't know the supply count / macro hatch timing of a 2-base Zerg, only 3-base. Didn't mean 2 base, i always get 3 bases up, find infestors good for fungals and getting terrans into the forcefields. | ||
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Gendo
United Kingdom216 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On September 15 2012 19:05 AndySCWilson wrote: So you just counter with an assload amount of banelings? Do you have enough gas to do that? Especially with lings streaming in? I understand how to counter a ling all-in easy enough. But when my banes can't kill his lings I get rolled. It depends on what you open, and what he opens, but generally, you make a baneling nest after taking your expansion, and a spine at 35-40 (or earlier if you see he is not droning up his natural). So if you go hatch first... - vs gas/pool, go baneling nest before speed, get 4 lings out just in case to morph into banes (especially if he doesnt expand) - vs pool/hatch and hatch first, leave 2 drones in gas and get baneling nest @50 gas (so about 25) If you go pool/hatch, you really just need to leave 3 drones in gas and get speed, then bane nest, asap. Except maybe against pool/hatch or hatch first, in which case you can go just 2 drones in gas. If you are having trouble and are lower level, I'd really recommend you just leave 3 drones in gas and get baneling nest as soon as you get 50 gas, and have a total of 6 lings out when it pops (if you made lings earlier due to early aggression, then you already have them). Leave 4 of them at home and hotkey them so you can morph them into banes if the opponent streams mass lings from his base, they will finish in time (and its really good to spread them so the eggs 'block' the ramp), and the other 2 you use to scout (or not, whatever, in that case just make 4). I'll try to load some reps or make a guide on early game zvz, but 4 defensive banes will stop an infinite amount of lings or offensive ling/bane made at the early game. And additional spine, queen, and reactionary ling/bane will stop anything else, but those 4 banes and a spine will buy more than enough time to respond. It's just important that you have your banes block the ramp. Then, you simply have your queen peck out his lings so he can't just deny mining. Eventually a spine will be necessary. if he tries to focus the queen, blows kill all his lings. very simple. I would recommend against sim citying or relying on lots of stuff in the early game, it would kill your drone count against a normal player or even someone who's delaying his all-in. Just make sure to have a baneling nest up in time (generally it should be thrown down around 26), and 4 lings hotkeyed that can be made into banes quickly if necessary. Since you are low level and having trouble, here's what I'd recommend to you: - leave all 3 drones in gas, get speed then bane nest exactly when you get 50 gas. Hotkey your spawning pool so you can start speed asap too. As you get better, you can pull drones from gas to be greedy, but i wouldn't worry about that until high masters. - make 6 lings right before pool pops, at about 28-31. Again, you can delay this, or only make 4 lings instead of 6, to be greedier or based on what you scout, but it woudlnt be honest and youd die to an all-in. So I would recommend you make 6 lings at 28 (unless you already made 6 lings, or whatever, just have 6 lings total made by 31), and when you get better and high masters, cut this number down or delay it - Make a spine at 30. You can delay this as you get better to 35-40 as you can rely on baneling micro, but again, not until you have a better grasp of the early game and are high masters. - Morph 4 banes pre-emptively when baneling nest pops, at the ramp. If an attack comes, spread them out a bit in 2 by 2 groups. As you get better, you can just hotkey 4 lings and morph them into banes if necessary, but until you are quick enough and higher masters, just make 4 pre-emptive banes at about 33. Then simply drone up 100%. A baneling nest at 25 and a spine, and you should be able to hold any all-in for a VERY long time, and you can just drone hard. As you get better, you can learn to cut corners, but knowing what is a 100% safe opener, will go a long way to letting you learn how to play the early game. here was my ZvZ opener for a long time: - 10 Drone scout Hatch First (if i see a 6/7/8 pool, I'll go 15 pool, if I see ~10pool with gas, I'll go 15pool/15gas, if I see 10 pool gasless, I'll go 15pool/15hatch, otherwise I'll go hatch first with 17 gas/17 pool to make up for the drone scout) -17 overlord - 2 queens, no lings. Baneling nest first if they go 14/14 or gas/pool, but generally I'll go speed first. - Drone to 27/28 - Baneling Nest, Spine -25/28 Overlord - Drone to 28 - 28-31 6xLings - Morph 4 pre-emptive banes at ramp, scout with other 2 as they will have speed now. - drone hard and at 50 supply do whatever (4xgas for 2base lair or third+evo for fast third). Recently, I've been working on shaving corners. I remove 1 drones from gas vs pool/hatch and hatch/first so I get the baneling nest after overlord, and I may only make 4 lings and rely on overlord scouting to see what they are doing, or make those 2 scouting lings later, but that's generally it. You really can't be much greedier than the build I gave above except maybe not morph the banes but just hotkey them at home and morph them into banes if the opponent moves out via hotkey with an overlord in front of his nat ramp, without being vulnerable to ling all-ins (since ling all-ins can come before ling/bane all-ins, and yea, you can hold ling all-ins if you just pump lings yourself, but I don't find that reliable). | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Force him to engage in some kind of choke or on a ramp so that you are fighting with even numbers of zerglings even if he has way more. Use the banelings for zone control more than anything else. They don't kill his lings, but they take them all to 1 hp, so you still need zerglings of your own, and you need to contain the engagement so that he can't surround your lings or run past you if the banelings run out. queens are your best friend. Eh, I don't know if I really agree with this. It's definitely not a universal thing. Sometimes someone is only pumping lings and lings and lings, and engaging at a ramp just means you engage evenly, not that you trade cost efficiently, and you will have to remake those lings while he doesn't care because he's all-inning. You want to engage only with banelings, you just use a couple lings to make sure he can't snipe your banes. Often times, with a queen+spine (or even a third queen if he's really dedicating), you won't really need any ling support, unless he's going super hardcore (as in you see a constant stream of reinforcments rally from his natural). Don't banes 1-shot lings in the early agme when upgrades aren't a factor? and thanks for the link, apparently 60 drones is garbage, but i really dont know how to get more, i get all injects and do ONLY drones, confusing Watch your units tab when you watch a replay. If you have idle larva, that's just like T/P not producing probes. You larva count should always be at 0-1. Yea larva and larav injects will pop, but they should dissapear immediately. I think you will find that you just aren't making drones at all like you think you are. Look at what causes you to not make drones. I found that I spent way too much of my effort in-game focused on scouting too much, or that I just wouldn't produce drones whenever I was micro'ing lings against a zealot, or that I was spending way too much effort on rallying and maynarding. You seriously need to be droning at all times, and lower level players don't really get this I think. You should never have idle larva, but lower level players (as in up to high masters, i'm very guilty of this too, but I've improved a lot after some people asked me why i just never make drones, in zvz i still have a problem with this though). It's a lot harder than T/P because they can just queueu up another worker right before one finishes. But for zerg, if you dont hit that sdsdsdsdsd all the time then you have idle larva, and that's bad. | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
I'm a diamond zerg, and I've recently been experiencing with muta-ling builds against toss. I go for the usual quick 3 hatches, and take 4 gas at 6:00. When I need more gas, I get two additional geysers at my third. When I have I get ling speed and lair, and put down a spire when the lair finishes. I pump out drones and lings with my excess minerals and get +1 melee. (Is this the correct way to do this, or would you prefer other build orders/strategies?) After my spire pops I get +1 air attack and mass mutas. First mutas pop at around 11:00. Harass bases and try to deny/kill third with lings. But my problem is this; how do I transition out of this? I feel like BL transition isn't safe because of how bad mutas are in straight up engagements, and if the protoss scouts my greater spire morphing, he can just push and kill me. Lets assume I did moderate to good damage, but toss managed to get some nice defense up, and is building an army. Also, I've tried to find any decent guides to this build, but the guides I can find are pretty outdated. If any of you have a good guide for this, I'd be most happy to read it. Thanks alot! http://drop.sc/253338 A replay here. Although it won't provide any mistakes due to transitioning, because the toss died to the ling/muta. But it'll show my general build; in which I would also really like to improve. | ||
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734pot
Australia294 Posts
4 gas at 6:00 is probably too early, while it might work when no pressure is put onto you, it will be harder to hold off heavy gateway pressure. Try getting 3 gases at 6:30 and the others once you're fully saturated and know that no heavy gateway all in is coming. | ||
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chaknow
United States7 Posts
I think my biggest problem is that I am not sure if the terran is going to do a mid-game push or a late game push. So I make too many roaches and then I am too late to get to broodlords in late game. Maybe go ultra? Not sure, any help would be appreciated. I'm mid-plat. | ||
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Linkark07
37 Posts
Gotta admit haven't played in a long time so I may be still rusty but I can still counter most builds and do some fight. Anyways, there is a terran build that is irking me alot. When a terran mass thors and BFH, how do you counter it? Tried using cracklings, blings and Brood Lords but it didn't work at all. Even with 3 fully saturated bases I couldn't do anything for defeat him. | ||
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