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Xorphene
United Kingdom492 Posts
On September 14 2012 23:46 TTOMZ wrote: I just normally do the quick 3rd (around 4 mins 15) and then drone up get the roach waren and evo at 7 mins, You know stephano style What's your supply count at 8:00? | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
He was at 74 supply at the 8:00 mark. I guess one would wonder why not do that build in zvp. his evos were just started, no roach warren, a lot less drones because a lot more supply in queens. | ||
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Luzun
Brazil4 Posts
On September 14 2012 09:57 Mavvie wrote: I'm way lower level than you, and watching the replay was pretty cool. Honestly, the only mistake imo was getting your spire so late (21:00). Ultra/bane/ling/infestor is good, but it does lose to rine/rauder/tank, especially when it's max upgrades. I figured your loss would be due to cost inefficiency, but by some miracle you're ahead in units lost up to this point. You should probably go double spire as soon as your ultras will keep you alive, then you can get greater spire/+1 carapace, and honestly you should try to win with a 4-5 base broodlord timing. I haven't finished watching the replay, but you probably lose because you mine out because it's Ohana. For improved cost efficiency, you should've scouted/tried to run some lings by to his 4 o'clock expo; it was completely undefended forever. Lots of free SCV/mule kills. I'm really curious if anyone else has some insight into this game. I often have similar troubles killing a Terran, even if I kill a push. Btw, I think GSL maps like whirlwind hard counter these problems -- there's so many bases that you can literally be on like 8 bases vs 4, and then you can actually win with any unit composition (except mass roach lolol). Ohana is so small that there's only 5 bases, and 5 base vs 5 base a good Terran should win. Thanks for the tips, but I think I nedd something more, I mean, it's quite impossible not to play ohana in ladder, so if anyone more can tell me what to do i would be really grateful. Anyway thanks for the help. | ||
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syriuszonito
Poland332 Posts
On September 15 2012 02:02 Luzun wrote: Thanks for the tips, but I think I nedd something more, I mean, it's quite impossible not to play ohana in ladder, so if anyone more can tell me what to do i would be really grateful. Anyway thanks for the help. Interesting game :D (so close at the end, you could have won it I think). What rly cost you the game was not scouting that hidden orbital base for so long, he had the better income all game long. Probably you should tech to ultras a bit faster, imagine you have them at 16:30, that attack by terran gets totally stomped and you pretty much control the game. The basic idea behind zvt right now (or at least that how I see it) is to prevent terran from taking more than 3 base with ultras while securing base 4th and 5th base yourself and tech switching to bl. If you are on even bases or terran is ahead in economy then things tend to get dirty. | ||
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Mrvoodoochild1
United States1439 Posts
On September 14 2012 04:31 2_Solid wrote: When a Terran goes CC first into 3x OC banshee harass into mech, how many bases can I get away with before his push? BFH have A LOT of map control, so is it worth fighting over a fourth to help hold off his thor/BFH/banshee push? The only thing a meching player can do before he hits a critical mass of siege tanks and thors is harass with hellions so you are pretty much to free to drone and take 4 bases until that push eventully comes. Just defend with roaches and and tech as quickly as you can to BL. There are other things you can do as well to punish the meching player which delays their push. Roach drops are very good. Mutas are also good if he goes heavy banshee play. Just understand that mech is a turtle play which means that as a zerg you can be as greedy as you want. | ||
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Xorphene
United Kingdom492 Posts
On September 15 2012 01:32 Belial88 wrote: The most recent games of gsl with DRG, showcase him doing a really clear, concise 6 queen build in all of his games. He also is obviously doing his build differently than before (making 5th and 6th queen same time instead of 1 by 1 out of same hatch, getting 4xgas at 60 instead of 2xgas at 45 and 3rd around 55 and the rest just when he felt like it, taking his third clearly at 45). He seemed to be int he 70's in the 8:00 mark, but if you watch the game I'm sure you can figure out exactly what is a good supply to be at. He was at 74 supply at the 8:00 mark. I guess one would wonder why not do that build in zvp. his evos were just started, no roach warren, a lot less drones because a lot more supply in queens. This is a really interesting build - going to be trying this out. 74 supply at 8 mins is pretty insane in ZvT. I guess an early timing from P could put you in trouble in that matchup, but I guess you'd have ample creep spread to see things coming in time to produce lings. Worth a try also. Thanks B. | ||
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Mrvoodoochild1
United States1439 Posts
On September 14 2012 23:27 TTOMZ wrote: Help me vs toss please. I'm plat and i have no idea what to do. All Toss does it 1 or 2 base mass gate all in me. I have now idea how to stop it when its fucking stupid Well you have to be more specific. There are many different variations of gateway attacks. There's blink all ins, there 5 gate allin's, 7 gate allin's each requiring a different response and timings. First off, you always want to do the stephano three hatch build. To identify a gateway attack, you want to check the if the protoss takes his gases at his natural at around the 6 min mark and whether he is chroning his forge. If you don't see that the toss took his natural gases then it's probably a straight 5/7 gate. This means that you need to put your roach warren down at around 6:45 and spend your first 100 gas on ling speed. Start making units as soon as as you see a probe putting up a proxy pylon at around 7:30-8:00. If it's a blink all in, the toss will usually take only one gas at his natural. These attacks are usually delayed because the toss wants to get +2 and a good amount of stalkers before the attack. This means you can be a little more greedy. So you can get lair before ling speed and you can make drones until around 8:30. For this it is usually better to get +1 armor as you will be making more lings then usual because pure roaches are shit against blink stalkers. Side notes, don't be afraid to make spines or to to pull the queen from your natural to help defend the attack. Most gateway attacks are all ins so you have to do is survive and you come out ahead or even most of the time. | ||
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StateofReverie
United States633 Posts
On September 15 2012 03:24 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote: Well you have to be more specific. There are many different variations of gateway attacks. There's blink all ins, there 5 gate allin's, 7 gate allin's each requiring a different response and timings. First off, you always want to do the stephano three hatch build. To identify a gateway attack, you want to check the if the protoss takes his gases at his natural at around the 6 min mark and whether he is chroning his forge. If you don't see that the toss took his natural gases then it's probably a straight 5/7 gate. This means that you need to put your roach warren down at around 6:45 and spend your first 100 gas on ling speed. Start making units as soon as as you see a probe putting up a proxy pylon at around 7:30-8:00. If it's a blink all in, the toss will usually take only one gas at his natural. These attacks are usually delayed because the toss wants to get +2 and a good amount of stalkers before the attack. This means you can be a little more greedy. So you can get lair before ling speed and you can make drones until around 8:30. For this it is usually better to get +1 armor as you will be making more lings then usual because pure roaches are shit against blink stalkers. Side notes, don't be afraid to make spines or to to pull the queen from your natural to help defend the attack. Most gateway attacks are all ins so you have to do is survive and you come out ahead or even most of the time. I like to use hydralisks to stop blink all ins. Roach/hydralisk is deadly vs gateway combinations. Roaches themselves on creep with burrow are also a very dangerous first, but the most important thing is to determine whether the protoss is goign to rush you or not. If its one base, you have to build blindly to hold it or make a good assumption based on other elements of the game that you saw. If it's 2 base, if you send in 2 overlords at around 6:40 you will see the gateways goign down for the earliest possible gateway rush. Then, you also have to determine what kind of a 2 base attack it is and there ARE MANY so it will take time to learn all the variations | ||
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Xorphene
United Kingdom492 Posts
On September 15 2012 03:41 StateofReverie wrote: I like to use hydralisks to stop blink all ins. Roach/hydralisk is deadly vs gateway combinations. They are, but you need to be careful - if the toss scouts your hydra den and decides to turtle into colossus then you have dead weight in your army. | ||
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Mrvoodoochild1
United States1439 Posts
On September 15 2012 03:41 StateofReverie wrote: I like to use hydralisks to stop blink all ins. Roach/hydralisk is deadly vs gateway combinations. Roaches themselves on creep with burrow are also a very dangerous first, but the most important thing is to determine whether the protoss is goign to rush you or not. If its one base, you have to build blindly to hold it or make a good assumption based on other elements of the game that you saw. If it's 2 base, if you send in 2 overlords at around 6:40 you will see the gateways goign down for the earliest possible gateway rush. Then, you also have to determine what kind of a 2 base attack it is and there ARE MANY so it will take time to learn all the variations Never make hydras in PvZ unless the protoss goes two starport VR. Even doing this is uneccessary in many situations as you can just make two more queens and put spores everywhere so you save gas. Against wargate attacks, It is much better to just make roaches and lings and to save your gas for infestors as hydras are more expensive and require an additional upgrade for range. Also, if you are playing a decent toss who is doing a 5/7 gate all in, you will NEVER have hydras out in time if you are doing a standard pvz build. Most zergs start their lair at the earliest at the 7 min mark doing the Stephano three base build and 5/7 gates hit around the 7:30-8 min mark. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Hydras are better used offensively (ie vs stargate openers to deny third until colossus are out, etc). You should be able to make more than enough roachling to hold any allin. | ||
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Agoniter
Norway2 Posts
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envisioN .
United States552 Posts
On September 15 2012 06:52 Agoniter wrote: How does one counter mass ling/infestor in ZvZ?? Ling/Infestor relies on fast upgrades in the mid game to survive and get to fully upgraded ultras. To counter this, going for a strong 1/1 roach timing or 2/2 roach infestor timing to kill their third base is very strong. | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
On September 15 2012 01:32 Belial88 wrote: The most recent games of gsl with DRG, showcase him doing a really clear, concise 6 queen build in all of his games. He also is obviously doing his build differently than before (making 5th and 6th queen same time instead of 1 by 1 out of same hatch, getting 4xgas at 60 instead of 2xgas at 45 and 3rd around 55 and the rest just when he felt like it, taking his third clearly at 45). He seemed to be int he 70's in the 8:00 mark, but if you watch the game I'm sure you can figure out exactly what is a good supply to be at. He was at 74 supply at the 8:00 mark. I guess one would wonder why not do that build in zvp. his evos were just started, no roach warren, a lot less drones because a lot more supply in queens. It was a 15 hatch, so you can't exactly compare the supply across match-ups to a 15 pool opening. | ||
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j.k.l
112 Posts
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On September 15 2012 10:49 j.k.l wrote: when i play zerg it feels too repetitive for me. Espeicially in zvt and zvp, zvz not so much. Is it just me or is this basically kinda true? Yup, I agree. I'm switching to Protoss mainly because I'm tired of ZvP. It's the same shit and it's kind of ridiculous, I'd rather live without it. Same with ZvT, yeah I agree with you completely. ZvZ is the best matchup in the whole game though, we're lucky to have the only reliably fun mirror matchup | ||
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j.k.l
112 Posts
On September 15 2012 11:05 Mavvie wrote: Yup, I agree. I'm switching to Protoss mainly because I'm tired of ZvP. It's the same shit and it's kind of ridiculous, I'd rather live without it. Same with ZvT, yeah I agree with you completely. ZvZ is the best matchup in the whole game though, we're lucky to have the only reliably fun mirror matchup yes i want to see Fuzzy's perspective on this matter as well. I am also considering switching races to toss just like you. Hopefully HOTS changes this. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On September 15 2012 11:08 j.k.l wrote: yes i want to see Fuzzy's perspective on this matter as well. I am also considering switching races to toss just like you. Hopefully HOTS changes this. Yeah I did pick the worst time to switch races lol. I'm really liking Protoss, but I've got to watch more VODs/read more guides on PvT, I'm so lost in the matchup I'm a PvZ monster though haha, it's so much fun to do the shit that you found really good (or overpowered), instead of having it done against you. I'm also interested in what Fuzzy has to say as well. Worst part of playing Protoss is definitely PvP though lol. I tried to go 7gate blink on Ohana........................................don't go blijnk on ohana. Not to cause a balance derail, but I find Protoss easier for me. Not having to worry about injects is the best. It fits my playstyle. It's a lot easier to know what to do in various situations, and it's more micro-oriented. Plus cannon rushing C: Only complaint about the race is that immortal hotkey is 'I'.... who the fuck thought up that lol. Edit: I like Protoss strategy and tactics. You study a VOD, you learn what he does and why, then you can easily do it yourself. Rinse and repeat. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On September 15 2012 07:19 envisioN . wrote: Ling/Infestor relies on fast upgrades in the mid game to survive and get to fully upgraded ultras. To counter this, going for a strong 1/1 roach timing or 2/2 roach infestor timing to kill their third base is very strong. That's really an all-in way to play it though. If you don't kill them, you just lose. I'm not sure what the answer is to ling/infestor, and certain roach timing can be hard as hell to deal with (particularly fast third before lair into mass roach/hydra imo), but it's all-in. Then again, I really don't see any macro way to beat it. Your fucked if you do, your fucked if you don't, is how I look at it. I stopped playing it because so many maps, the third is so wide open that it's really hard to pull off, and I just felt really vulnerable playing it because you gotta make so many spines and infestors that you never can drone up your third i felt and you never have lings out. maybe my third was too quick and lair was too late, im not sure. | ||
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Gucci_Mane
United States4 Posts
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