EPTEdit: and the only time I'm a Suhosin fan is when he's cheesing the hell out of protoss players.
The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 369
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DogBite
37 Posts
Edit: and the only time I'm a Suhosin fan is when he's cheesing the hell out of protoss players. | ||
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Striker.superfreunde
Germany1118 Posts
On September 04 2012 10:34 Belial88 wrote: Scouting is the key to being greedy. If you know what the opponent is doing, you can cut lots of corners. For example, in ZvP, if I see double gas, I won't get a roach warren for a long time, I might not even get it at all if I can confirm his follow-up. In ZvT, if I see the opponent go 1 rax FE, I'll just make 6 queens, sim city my natural, and not make any units for a long time. Good macro is also key. In ZvZ, if you macro well, you don't really have to care about an early roach/ling all-in, if I see roaches push out with that overlord I have in front of his base, i just throw down 3-5 spines and make a ton of lings, and it'll be easy to hold. If someone is doing an early roach push, you'll want 3-5 spines depending if it's early or late, and how many lings you can get out (ie did you know about it and make a bunch of lings, or did you not). Yes, making spines is key to holding roach/ling, you aren't going to beat him in roach count when he's been making them since the start of the game. Mutas are imo, the best way to 'counter' roach/ling all-ins. Thank you!  Looks like i'm on the right way, if it comes to understand how zerg works. One point less to worrie about. Now i have to get used to the execution part. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On September 05 2012 03:02 DogBite wrote: Yeah that makes a lot of sense, I was wincing too when he attacked into the drone flower. I wonder if he just thought he had more lings than he did have. It still makes me feel way better about opening 15hatch, though. If even a code S player can mess up their 10pool enough to turn a build-order win into a loss, I should be able to hold off a NA diamond player's 10pool a fair amount of the time. Edit: and the only time I'm a Suhosin fan is when he's cheesing the hell out of protoss players. Suhosin and curious are the only zergs to screw up 10 pools. I don't know how they haven't seen my posts on TL. It's even worse when people lose to such 10 pools (lalush did vs curious :X). It doesn't take micro or anything that a code s player would have over a diamond. It's a simple, very straightforward, execution problem. Most people, including code s players, don't really know the ins and outs of some things. Bad_habit and myself know more about 6/7/8 pools than a lot of pros probably do (like suhosin, clearly), we've just spent a lot of time on them. I know I don't have the micro of these players, but I know enough that you can hold a hatch first vs a no drone pulled 10 pool by just pulling most of your drones if he tries to force a cancel, for example, or that you should go 8/12 drones pulled, not all or none drones pulled, and that a simple a-move would work and crush a hatch first, rather than trying to micro or be scared. If suhosin knew he could have just a-moved and crushed leenock's force, even with that defensive drone stack, when he pulled all his drones the 2nd time, he would have won easily. Then there was that game of jaedong vs some guy who 10 pooled 8 of 12 drones pulled nestea style on entombed. Jaedong held it off (theres a few other pro vods of this too), granted, with just beautiful, clearly code s level micro, but he only held it off because the opponent (effort? roro? forget who, wcs) did not plant a spine in the nat immediately. But any diamond would beat a hatch first, even a pro, if they just know what to do. Granted, there are nearly a half dozen responses that all take different reactions to handle, but the diamond just has to pull 8 of 12 drones, put a single spine at each hatchery (ie so if he keeps his nat, just make a single spine down there and continue into the workers), and a-move into the drones. If a base trade occurs, make a spine at home, or, just keep pumping lings and win the base trade becuase you'll get way more lings out (whereas base trading is the perfect answer against all-drones pulled since they won't have more and more and more and more lings coming). | ||
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RaMBO2
United States30 Posts
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
Is trying to end the game at around 14-15 mins in ZvT with muta/ling/bane a good idea? When should I abandon my hopes of attacking? At my level Terrans don't focusfire banes with tanks (at least not that I've noticed), so if I engage well I shouldn't lose many banes to tanks. Generally I thought mutas were harass, mass expand, and tech to infestor/hive (ultras or broods are good transitions afaik), but apparently you can win while being aggressive? Also 6 queen build is awesome against 2base all ins hahaha. Some guy did a 2 base marine/tank all-in and just got rolled it's funny how the metagame has changed. First time playing against marine/tank timing too. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On September 05 2012 11:39 Mavvie wrote: Is it okay to be aggressive in midgame ZvT with muta/ling/bane? I'm fairly new to Starcraft, and I've never seen a pro game where Zerg went mutas instead of infestors in ZvT. I guess a better question is: should I be able to win in the midgame with muta/ling/bane against marine/tank Terran? I just played a game against a Masters Terran, and I was like "let's try being aggressive", went up to ~20 mutas, 30-40 banes, and a ton of lings, and just attacked and won lol. It was 3 base vs 3 base, so I felt I was behind, but I was able to close the game instantly and it was really weird. Is trying to end the game at around 14-15 mins in ZvT with muta/ling/bane a good idea? When should I abandon my hopes of attacking? At my level Terrans don't focusfire banes with tanks (at least not that I've noticed), so if I engage well I shouldn't lose many banes to tanks. Generally I thought mutas were harass, mass expand, and tech to infestor/hive (ultras or broods are good transitions afaik), but apparently you can win while being aggressive? Also 6 queen build is awesome against 2base all ins hahaha. Some guy did a 2 base marine/tank all-in and just got rolled it's funny how the metagame has changed. First time playing against marine/tank timing too. It is ABSOLUTELY ok to be aggressive midgame with Muta/bane/ling. Muta/bane/ling is the "pro-active" version of midgame with Infestor tech being the "defensive" type of midgame choice. You have to be aggressive with mutas so you can do some damage before they get up turrets or split marines. I wouldn't really encourage attacking to the point where you try to just end it in the midgame. That might work at mineral-league level but once you hit masters, T actually know how to macro and they will eventually crush your muta/bane/ling army with superior numbers. I prefer to make 8-12 mutas and some ling/bane while taking other bases and teching straight to festors and BLs. You can go heavy on the mutas but you also need to go heavy on the bane/ling and just go try to kill him. If you opt for a lot in the midgame, you have to use it before "midgame" is over and you start needing lategame tech. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
In this series: http://www.gomtv.net/2012wcg/vod/70551 Monster vs Hack WCS korea, Zerg does ling/bane/muta busts like you talk about. You can see despite cleaning up large chunks of terran's army, it isn't enough damage, even though he trades pretty well, and Terran's 3 base push, despite being delayed, just comes before hive can be done after investing so much into midgame (after all, you have to remake your ling/bane/muta force after trading, so terran can't just go kill you with 2 medivac's worth of units, so you are further delayed, so you have to do a TON of damage to make it worth it). Mutas force some turrets and defensive posturing from terran, but you really have to do damage to make it worth it, as 6 turrets is a lot cheaper than spire+10+mutas+one or two air upgrades, not to mention your upgrades, infestors, hive is later/delayed/smaller. If terran engages correctly when pushing out with his 3 base push vs muta play, he'll stomp you. When you meet a terran who goes fast third, macro oriented play, into a rine/tank push off 3 base at about 160+ supply, and siege up before creep, slow pushes, and spreads his tanks, and simply just micros enough that he focuses yoru banes with his tanks (god forbid he splits), you won't win with ling/bane/muta max. At diamond though, yea, ling/bane/muta will just crush. I got to about 1.2k masters because focus fire queuing tanks and quick-boxing over my banes to make sure they didn't roll into tanks was more micro than terrans could deal with. I ranked a little higher because I started to do flanks and attack from multiple angles with ling/bane/muta, but around 1.4k masters I couldn't make muta play work to save my life. I just get stomped if I go mutas against that 3 base rine/tank push. I suppose I get stomped by that push when I go infestors too so... i dont know, im new to infestor play, but i can tell it's 'safer'. But as I ranked up and up, mutas wouldnt do enough damage, and that 3 base push would come and I'd get strangled because my hive tech wasn't out and terran's weren't idiots about engaging. If you go infestor play, besides, you can capitalize on terrans who suck too - if they go onto creep without sieging up first, if they dont focus down banes, you'll stomp them with ling/bane/infestor just the same as ling/bane/muta. The difference is that with infestor play, you can get hive tech out in time against that push against a terran who pushes correctly, while with mutas, you won't have hive, and ling/bane/muta won't be enough against a terran who sieges up before creep and focuses banes. edit: not to say it isn't viable, but for a long time i always thought mutas were superior, and just recently i'm starting to understand that not only is making 12+ mutas extremely difficult, but making any mutas at all is a very hard way to play and really banks on you doing significant damage or else you are super behind. Mutas are amazing against 2 base play though. It's just when terran goes fast third, macro oriented play, it's hard. A few months ago I never saw hellion/banshee fast third even though all the pros did it, but nowadays it seems most people on ladder have figured it out. Finally, at least... | ||
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TheManInBlack
Nigeria266 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
ZvP, the best cheese i feel is a 3 base ling/bane bust, since it plays off Toss seeing the third and backing off. But if they make a sentry first, or send out a zealot, you can kind of lose. ZvT, roach/bane seems to be stopped pretty easily these days with banshees, or just bunkering up, and it really sucks if they go for a stim opener instead of hellion/banshee (although banshees with bunkers sucks too). I'm not realyl sure of what zvt cheese woudl be good. ZvZ... banelings lol any cheese, roach/ling is terrible. I think the best cheese to go for in zvz right now is opening 14/14 and just hard countering the popular pool/hatch builds that we see these days. I'm not 100% certain, but I think 14/14 hard counters pool/hatch openers if you do a 1 base ling/bane all-in. not too sure, maybe it's stoppable if they know it's coming and see no expo, but i saw a pro do it in wcs on entombed and it seemed to hard counter pool/hatch. and just play normal i guess if the opponent goes hatch first, just slightly behind. i'd love to play cheesy but there doesn't seem to really be any good cheeses. And all zerg cheeses seem to be stopped pretty cold if the opponent is doing any sort of cheesy or all-innish play themselves, since t/p cheeses seem to be way stronger and all-inning an opponent who is all-inning in zvz just sucks, doesn't really get you anywhere, sometimes it's okay, but things like roaches or whatever get owned by mass ling, and is also more ahead economically. maybe im just asking what cheeses are decent for zerg. | ||
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sC
9 Posts
User was banned for this post. | ||
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Thesper
United Kingdom37 Posts
On September 03 2012 23:38 sC wrote: i never QQ and never BM other race cause of the imbalanced Posted in another thread by the poster above me 2 days ago. Last 2 days on ladder must've been hard, huh? | ||
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maLaK1
Germany124 Posts
How do you move them and detonate them? | ||
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TheManInBlack
Nigeria266 Posts
On September 05 2012 14:36 Belial88 wrote: ^ And what cheese are you going to do? It's irritating when most cheeses seem to fail, and randomly too. ZvP, the best cheese i feel is a 3 base ling/bane bust, since it plays off Toss seeing the third and backing off. But if they make a sentry first, or send out a zealot, you can kind of lose. ZvT, roach/bane seems to be stopped pretty easily these days with banshees, or just bunkering up, and it really sucks if they go for a stim opener instead of hellion/banshee (although banshees with bunkers sucks too). I'm not realyl sure of what zvt cheese woudl be good. ZvZ... banelings lol any cheese, roach/ling is terrible. I think the best cheese to go for in zvz right now is opening 14/14 and just hard countering the popular pool/hatch builds that we see these days. I'm not 100% certain, but I think 14/14 hard counters pool/hatch openers if you do a 1 base ling/bane all-in. not too sure, maybe it's stoppable if they know it's coming and see no expo, but i saw a pro do it in wcs on entombed and it seemed to hard counter pool/hatch. and just play normal i guess if the opponent goes hatch first, just slightly behind. i'd love to play cheesy but there doesn't seem to really be any good cheeses. And all zerg cheeses seem to be stopped pretty cold if the opponent is doing any sort of cheesy or all-innish play themselves, since t/p cheeses seem to be way stronger and all-inning an opponent who is all-inning in zvz just sucks, doesn't really get you anywhere, sometimes it's okay, but things like roaches or whatever get owned by mass ling, and is also more ahead economically. maybe im just asking what cheeses are decent for zerg. You're right actually. But I was actually about to read your guide, you have some interesting looking allins and cheeses there. Tang hasn't written a guide himself but he has plenty of VODs and I was looking for a time to study them also. However upon watching his stream and actually trying out a ling/bane allin today, 2 base pressure is so weak... You won't have enough drones to keep it up and if you try to mitigate this by saturating the natural first then you've missed your window. Zerg cheese begins at tier 2.. That's what Nydus Worms, Overlord Drops and creep shenanigans are for. A couple of times I did some sick Hydralisk drops on the Protoss mineral lines.. It literally only takes 8 Hydras to kill an entire line in under 10 seconds its soooo ridiculous. I think someone should write a Zerg guide on tier 2 zerg cheese and allins. | ||
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Makky92
Finland27 Posts
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gronnelg
Norway354 Posts
On September 05 2012 20:05 maLaK1 wrote: Is there any advice on how to best use banelings? How do you move them and detonate them? I'd say targetting (so you high marines, and not siege/marauders), and also blocking the retreat with lings, so the marines cant run away from the blings (see Destinys rape analogy). | ||
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maLaK1
Germany124 Posts
On September 05 2012 20:20 gronnelg wrote: I'd say targetting (so you high marines, and not siege/marauders), and also blocking the retreat with lings, so the marines cant run away from the blings (see Destinys rape analogy). i mean more how to micro, a - move, move, hold position splitting etc in a zvz ling bling scenario | ||
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Maxamix
Canada165 Posts
On September 05 2012 20:50 maLaK1 wrote: i mean more how to micro, a - move, move, hold position splitting etc in a zvz ling bling scenario In a ZvZ ling bling scenario your banelings are your priorities. A couple of guide lines. - Always have your speeding masses relatively close by your banes and make sure your ling and blings are on seperate hotkeys. - at 0/0 it takes 2 banes to kill a banelings. getting 2 banelings in their baneling mass can be ULTRA cos-effective. - +1 carpace on lings makes it so you need 2 blings to get through to them. Make sure you keep an eye out for that I basically make 2 groups of lings with more or less the same number of lings in it (on 1 and 2) I them make 2 groups of 2 banelings (3-4) and 5 for all my banelings (so i can emergency move them if there is multiple single ling comming in). Moving command will ensure the baneling is not detonating to a single ling. hold position will not change anything and a move is a move. | ||
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maLaK1
Germany124 Posts
On September 05 2012 23:00 Maxamix wrote: In a ZvZ ling bling scenario your banelings are your priorities. A couple of guide lines. - Always have your speeding masses relatively close by your banes and make sure your ling and blings are on seperate hotkeys. - at 0/0 it takes 2 banes to kill a banelings. getting 2 banelings in their baneling mass can be ULTRA cos-effective. - +1 carpace on lings makes it so you need 2 blings to get through to them. Make sure you keep an eye out for that I basically make 2 groups of lings with more or less the same number of lings in it (on 1 and 2) I them make 2 groups of 2 banelings (3-4) and 5 for all my banelings (so i can emergency move them if there is multiple single ling comming in). Moving command will ensure the baneling is not detonating to a single ling. hold position will not change anything and a move is a move. thanks, so the pro zergs basically detonate banes only using the detonate command, no a move? | ||
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FuzzyDunlop
United States3 Posts
I usually don't drone scout in ZvP, so I don't see the gateway first until my ovie gets there, and then assume for this that he does build a nexus at his natural and doesn't just four gate. What's the best response? | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
On September 05 2012 14:36 Belial88 wrote: ^ And what cheese are you going to do? It's irritating when most cheeses seem to fail, and randomly too. ZvP, the best cheese i feel is a 3 base ling/bane bust, since it plays off Toss seeing the third and backing off. But if they make a sentry first, or send out a zealot, you can kind of lose. ZvT, roach/bane seems to be stopped pretty easily these days with banshees, or just bunkering up, and it really sucks if they go for a stim opener instead of hellion/banshee (although banshees with bunkers sucks too). I'm not realyl sure of what zvt cheese woudl be good. ZvZ... banelings lol any cheese, roach/ling is terrible. I think the best cheese to go for in zvz right now is opening 14/14 and just hard countering the popular pool/hatch builds that we see these days. I'm not 100% certain, but I think 14/14 hard counters pool/hatch openers if you do a 1 base ling/bane all-in. not too sure, maybe it's stoppable if they know it's coming and see no expo, but i saw a pro do it in wcs on entombed and it seemed to hard counter pool/hatch. and just play normal i guess if the opponent goes hatch first, just slightly behind. i'd love to play cheesy but there doesn't seem to really be any good cheeses. And all zerg cheeses seem to be stopped pretty cold if the opponent is doing any sort of cheesy or all-innish play themselves, since t/p cheeses seem to be way stronger and all-inning an opponent who is all-inning in zvz just sucks, doesn't really get you anywhere, sometimes it's okay, but things like roaches or whatever get owned by mass ling, and is also more ahead economically. maybe im just asking what cheeses are decent for zerg. 14/14 does not counter pool hatch. If you have the right timings, your second queen will make it to block your ramp just in the nick of time, and if you go baneling nest before speed you should be able to save your natural. Entombed looks like a hard map for that though, maybe it's not safe with the layout of that natural. For zvp you can get 80% and upwards winrate by doing the 3 base bust with roach/ling. 3 hatches 1 queen, 24 drones, 6-7 roaches and constantly rallying spedlings. It hits later than the baneling bust, but it still hits before warpgate completes, and still wins if they made blind sentries. | ||
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