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So I play a way diff from a standard zerg and seem to be having trouble in the late game and am trying to find a transition to a good unit composition for the late game. I usually get stuck on roaches and can't really find a way/time to transition into something stronger.
My opening is:
8/9 overlord,
15 hatch,
15 pool,
14 gas,
2 queens and roach warren as soon as pool finishes,
drone until first queen finishes,
then take second gas
then roaches or more drones (depending on opponant).
Usually around 28-34 I build a macro hatch and 3rd queen.
Usually against terran I build infestors (to fungal) and against toss about about 100 food i get a hydra den (since they see mass roach they go immortals). Against zerg I tend to either lose really early against a really early ling (sometimes baneling) push or really late to broodlords. I do alright in most games but I tend to lose often just because I get stuck on roaches for to long. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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On July 05 2012 03:34 Goliath520 wrote:
So I play a way diff from a standard zerg and seem to be having trouble in the late game and am trying to find a transition to a good unit composition for the late game. I usually get stuck on roaches and can't really find a way/time to transition into something stronger.
My opening is:
8/9 overlord,
15 hatch,
15 pool,
14 gas,
2 queens and roach warren as soon as pool finishes,
drone until first queen finishes,
then take second gas
then roaches or more drones (depending on opponant).
Usually around 28-34 I build a macro hatch and 3rd queen.
Usually against terran I build infestors (to fungal) and against toss about about 100 food i get a hydra den (since they see mass roach they go immortals). Against zerg I tend to either lose really early against a really early ling (sometimes baneling) push or really late to broodlords. I do alright in most games but I tend to lose often just because I get stuck on roaches for to long. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
This is in all matchups? I imagine you're talking about ZvT.
If you invest that much money into army early (especially gas) you're going to suffer in the lategame.
Around 28-34 you get a macro hatch.. after getting gas at 14 and roach warren together with your 2 queens?
I hate to say it but you simply cannot afford all of this. You're definitely not spending your larvae efficiently.
As much as people like to pride themselves on playing unorthodox, but it does not make up for sloppy macro/execution, so I'd suggest simply following the standard until you get somewhat high in masters.
Try going 15 hatch 16 pool and delaying gas, and mark when you get to 28-34 food if you spend your larva as you get them. Now compare it to your other games, you should notice the difference. 
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just reinstalled sc2, gonna practice ZvT with buddy to get back into the groove.
Can anyone give me a general build/outline thats common in the new 5range queen patch?
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On July 05 2012 04:41 Templar. wrote:
just reinstalled sc2, gonna practice ZvT with buddy to get back into the groove.
Can anyone give me a general build/outline thats common in the new 5range queen patch?
Delay gas a ton.
15 hatch 16 pool, double queen.
When double queen finishes double queen again.
I personally get 2 gasses at 44 supply but you can delay it more and get 6 queens total.
First 100 gas > speed
Next 100 gas > double evo for 1-1 melee
3rd when you are safe and can afford it, otherwise macro hatch a bit after dropping your evos.
Next 100 gas > lair
*possibly a bane nest*
Infestors or mutas, your pick =]
fast hive 3-3 with ultras are really popular right now, but infestor broodlord is still really good. At the end of it all you want both techs and switch inbetween regularly, making it really hard for the terran.
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On July 05 2012 04:37 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 03:34 Goliath520 wrote:
So I play a way diff from a standard zerg and seem to be having trouble in the late game and am trying to find a transition to a good unit composition for the late game. I usually get stuck on roaches and can't really find a way/time to transition into something stronger...
...Usually against terran I build infestors (to fungal) and against toss about about 100 food i get a hydra den (since they see mass roach they go immortals). Against zerg I tend to either lose really early against a really early ling (sometimes baneling) push or really late to broodlords. I do alright in most games but I tend to lose often just because I get stuck on roaches for to long. Any help would be greatly appreciated. This is in all matchups? I imagine you're talking about ZvT. If you invest that much money into army early (especially gas) you're going to suffer in the lategame. Around 28-34 you get a macro hatch.. after getting gas at 14 and roach warren together with your 2 queens? I hate to say it but you simply cannot afford all of this. You're definitely not spending your larvae efficiently. As much as people like to pride themselves on playing unorthodox, but it does not make up for sloppy macro/execution, so I'd suggest simply following the standard until you get somewhat high in masters. Try going 15 hatch 16 pool and delaying gas, and mark when you get to 28-34 food if you spend your larva as you get them. Now compare it to your other games, you should notice the difference.
Surprisingly, this works very well against most toss I play against. Terran usually end up losing for some reason or another most of the time even before infestors come out. My problem with delaying gas that much is that i will lose 100% of games because I am terrible with lings/banes.
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Ultra-noob Bronze player here, and I was wondering what you guys do to handle a Zerg that rushes for Roaches? I'm getting pretty close to promotion and have been finding that I lose against almost all Silver Zergs because I'm always totally unprepared for early Roach pushes.
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On July 05 2012 05:26 Goliath520 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 04:37 Clarity_nl wrote:On July 05 2012 03:34 Goliath520 wrote:
So I play a way diff from a standard zerg and seem to be having trouble in the late game and am trying to find a transition to a good unit composition for the late game. I usually get stuck on roaches and can't really find a way/time to transition into something stronger...
...Usually against terran I build infestors (to fungal) and against toss about about 100 food i get a hydra den (since they see mass roach they go immortals). Against zerg I tend to either lose really early against a really early ling (sometimes baneling) push or really late to broodlords. I do alright in most games but I tend to lose often just because I get stuck on roaches for to long. Any help would be greatly appreciated. This is in all matchups? I imagine you're talking about ZvT. If you invest that much money into army early (especially gas) you're going to suffer in the lategame. Around 28-34 you get a macro hatch.. after getting gas at 14 and roach warren together with your 2 queens? I hate to say it but you simply cannot afford all of this. You're definitely not spending your larvae efficiently. As much as people like to pride themselves on playing unorthodox, but it does not make up for sloppy macro/execution, so I'd suggest simply following the standard until you get somewhat high in masters. Try going 15 hatch 16 pool and delaying gas, and mark when you get to 28-34 food if you spend your larva as you get them. Now compare it to your other games, you should notice the difference. Surprisingly, this works very well against most toss I play against. Terran usually end up losing for some reason or another most of the time even before infestors come out. My problem with delaying gas that much is that i will lose 100% of games because I am terrible with lings/banes.
You haven't said what level you play at, nor are you required. But I am stating this as a fact, the build you posted is physically impossible unless you cut worker production, this is why you claim to have issues lategame.
You don't have to delay gas that much if you don't want to.
Also, always get your overlord on 9, it's slightly better than on 8 so there's no reason not to.
I don't recommend doing the same build vs P and T as they are very different.
On July 05 2012 05:43 Caesar wrote:
Ultra-noob Bronze player here, and I was wondering what you guys do to handle a Zerg that rushes for Roaches? I'm getting pretty close to promotion and have been finding that I lose against almost all Silver Zergs because I'm always totally unprepared for early Roach pushes.
You'd have to define rushing but the best answer I can give to such a vague question is... a couple of spines will give you time to get roaches of your own out. Ofcourse there is always the option of counter attacks since roaches are fairly slow.
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On July 05 2012 06:14 Clarity_nl wrote:
You'd have to define rushing but the best answer I can give to such a vague question is... a couple of spines will give you time to get roaches of your own out. Ofcourse there is always the option of counter attacks since roaches are fairly slow.
Rushing as in 8-ish Roaches come crawling into my base between the 4:30 and 6 minute mark. But whatever, stupid fucking question in the first place. I just need to get my pool up a lot faster and delay my natural.
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I think that if you scout roach warren before queen (they can't deny scouting of roach warren). They'll take a gas, and won't expand. If you see that, go 15h/14p and get 3 spines. Try to use your lings to surround + trap the roaches in range of your spines. With a hatch first build, you can hold any all-in except a 10 pool/11 overpool. Spines work such wonders against roaches, it's ridiculous. You could probably even simcity with evos to help funnel the roaches.
Another great idea is to get a squad of ~10-20 lings and counterattack once he's halfway across the map. You can ruin his droneline AND make it back in time to trap the roaches in you spines. Really, you should never lose to a zerg who doesn't expand unless you terribly mismicro.
So yeah, spines and lings is all it takes! Starting spines when they move out they should finish in time, especially if you counterattack.
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On July 05 2012 07:40 Mavvie wrote:
I think that if you scout roach warren before queen (they can't deny scouting of roach warren). They'll take a gas, and won't expand. If you see that, go 15h/14p and get 3 spines. Try to use your lings to surround + trap the roaches in range of your spines. With a hatch first build, you can hold any all-in except a 10 pool/11 overpool. Spines work such wonders against roaches, it's ridiculous. You could probably even simcity with evos to help funnel the roaches.
Another great idea is to get a squad of ~10-20 lings and counterattack once he's halfway across the map. You can ruin his droneline AND make it back in time to trap the roaches in you spines. Really, you should never lose to a zerg who doesn't expand unless you terribly mismicro.
So yeah, spines and lings is all it takes! Starting spines when they move out they should finish in time, especially if you counterattack.
Thanks a ton for the advice. Not sure how well I'll actually be able to do this at first(with the scouting and counter attacking and all), but still, at least I can get started practicing.
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On July 05 2012 07:06 Caesar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 06:14 Clarity_nl wrote:
You'd have to define rushing but the best answer I can give to such a vague question is... a couple of spines will give you time to get roaches of your own out. Ofcourse there is always the option of counter attacks since roaches are fairly slow. Rushing as in 8-ish Roaches come crawling into my base between the 4:30 and 6 minute mark. But whatever, stupid fucking question in the first place. I just need to get my pool up a lot faster and delay my natural.
What? No, you should expect to have your natural up, so that you can have spines at the front. The way to beat one base in zvz is to have two bases.
If you can't seem to scout into his base (he made a few lings to wall the ramp or something), leave an overlord out in front of his base. You should be waiting to see either units leaving, or he'll eventually put down a hatchery. This way, should you see roaches leaving his base, you can just go all lings while putting down 2-3 spines at the front. It will take him a long time to walk all the way to your base, and in that time your spines should be nearly done, and if you can surround his roaches with lings while in range of the spines, you're golden. Be aware that he may try to run past, but even with 7-8 roaches, you can block him long enough that just pumping lings from two hatches should clean up whatever makes it past.
The big weakness of early roach in zvz is the huge amount of travel time it takes for roaches to reach you. Since he doesn't have a natural, either, your overlord can sit basically at his ramp, so there's no way for you to miss those roaches. That will give you plenty of reaction time.
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Can anyone help me? Im a diamond terran trying to switch to zerg and i can't seem to figure out zvz. My macro is fairly good but i have no idea how to play zvz. I don't understand what i'm supposed to do. I've been doing 10 pool but its so easily held off that i just auto lose 70% of my zvzs. I would think about trying hatch first but it seems like that their are so many gay builds that zergs can do to punish it thats it's not worth the frustration.
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On July 05 2012 09:44 SuperSloth wrote:
Can anyone help me? Im a diamond terran trying to switch to zerg and i can't seem to figure out zvz. My macro is fairly good but i have no idea how to play zvz. I don't understand what i'm supposed to do. I've been doing 10 pool but its so easily held off that i just auto lose 70% of my zvzs. I would think about trying hatch first but it seems like that their are so many gay builds that zergs can do to punish it thats it's not worth the frustration.
14gas 14pool hold pretty much everything.
just keep your vision on his base. keep count of his drones/army.
zvz is much harder to just MASS drone like we do zvt or zvp. you need to be super aware of your army/drone ratio compared to his.
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by everything, i mean early game shenanigans. and it puts you in a goodp osition with speed to fuck up a fast expand if you micro right with banes etc.
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On July 05 2012 09:59 O.Golden_ne wrote:
by everything, i mean early game shenanigans. and it puts you in a goodp osition with speed to fuck up a fast expand if you micro right with banes etc.
Out of most of the pro ZvZ games that i watch it transitions into roach hydra infestor. How do you keep yourself safe and get there? It seems like securing the third base is so important in ZvZ and is where most of the fighting gos on.
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Hey i like to play aggressive zerg and i need a little help with finding some updated builds. ive missed like 3-4 seasons and im having some trouble finding updated builds with film. i have taken a liking to stephanos ZvP and for my league (silver) having one build for each match up helps me TONS.lol. i really liked the "Ice Fisher" build for ZvT but i feel theres a more updated build or film? and as for ZvZ i NEVER had a build so anything helps.lol. so heres the list to make things easier
Looking For:
ZvT FE with aggression
ZvZ easy, safe FE.
any links to videos i will gladly take, and any link to build order postings i will gladly. thanks in advance! (zerg is superior) lolz
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3rdZergDivision,
Take a look at Belial's guide on z v z http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=295586
It is hard to have one safe play because things are very dynamic.
You react differently against 6 pool, zlings rush w/ drone planting spine in your main, 15 hatch/14 pool etc.
The way i play is to spend 20 games on one build. Say 14 gas/14 pool. Get use to reacting from diff builds. Then adapt accordingly.
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On July 05 2012 07:06 Caesar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 06:14 Clarity_nl wrote:
You'd have to define rushing but the best answer I can give to such a vague question is... a couple of spines will give you time to get roaches of your own out. Ofcourse there is always the option of counter attacks since roaches are fairly slow. Rushing as in 8-ish Roaches come crawling into my base between the 4:30 and 6 minute mark. But whatever, stupid fucking question in the first place. I just need to get my pool up a lot faster and delay my natural.
The push you are talking about can be scouted, I would hold it off with 2-3 spines, queens and lings. You can do this off of a 15 hatch because roaches are so slow. Also, 6:30 is typically the earliest you will see this push, 4:30 is not possible w/ 8 roaches.
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On July 05 2012 10:30 3rdZergDivision wrote:
Hey i like to play aggressive zerg and i need a little help with finding some updated builds. ive missed like 3-4 seasons and im having some trouble finding updated builds with film. i have taken a liking to stephanos ZvP and for my league (silver) having one build for each match up helps me TONS.lol. i really liked the "Ice Fisher" build for ZvT but i feel theres a more updated build or film? and as for ZvZ i NEVER had a build so anything helps.lol. so heres the list to make things easier
Looking For:
ZvT FE with aggression
ZvZ easy, safe FE.
any links to videos i will gladly take, and any link to build order postings i will gladly. thanks in advance! (zerg is superior) lolz
vT- 15 hatch, 16 pool, 4-6 queens, get a spine at like 28, delay gas until 44 or later. throw down your tech and 3-4 gas and start getting speed, lair, bnest, ups etc.
This process should go fairly simple, your hatch and pool will pop at 18/26f, get 2 queens and 2 sets of lings and an ovie. At 30 get another ovie and you should begin making queens 3/4 right away. With your scouting lings you should be able to see if the opponent is extremely passive, if not then get a spine. You will go up to 36/36 right before the ovie pops and you should make 2 ovies at this point. Keep making drones up to as much as 52 supply mark and get your 4 gas, your evo (this will be about 6:30), I also get a rw to be prepared for mech and possibly do a r/l/b bust. You need to spread creep, this is where z's are getting their advantage nowadays (which they should have always done) but with 2 queens to spread creep you can push quick. I typically double expand once I know that I am safe from the terran aggression and go for hive off of infester/ling/bling.
vP 15p, 16h or 20h if they block, 3rd at like 24ish food, make 4 queens right after each other. get 3 gas at 6:30 w/ rw and evo chamber. Here you want to hit 80f by the 8 min mark, if you can do that your on par w/ DRG and crew. You need to know when the toss is pushing out, there are some signs to that. I like to get a lair and build an army as necessary until you know what the toss is doing. You should hit past the 126 ovie. I go roach/ling with heavy ling and transition into muta after the fight. If they take a third I will get 150f asap and push their 3rd (should be really quick) while doing my tech to muta. If they are going templar I will stay roach. Try and get your g spire asap and just have more than they can handle. Knowing when they can't commit is important to drone timings.
vZ 15h 15p. This is what I do. I think the pros do 15p 15h 15g and that lets you get a 3rd at like 45f but with a spine, 4 lings and building 4 queens I can adequately hold most all-ins and once I get the rw and evo walling my hatch to the wall I feel really safe. This is very defensive so you will have to be willing to take some stupid losses and work on your macro.
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How are you supposed to beat protoss lategame... I usually do heavy pressure if P takes a 3rd and that either kills them or puts them behind, otherwise I lose. But this game I decided to just turtle and get hive stupid fast. I watched Symbol v Parting on ck in gsl ro32 and I decided to mimic him. I started my hive before 11 minutes and got double evos for melee/cara (I got 1 missile attack before I started my 2nd evo). I took my 4th pretty fast. I got about 6 infestors and NP. I got my bane nest and ultra cavern at about the same time.
Protoss took a 4th and I attacked with about 5 ultras, infestors, and a lot of banes. I kill his 4th but he holds his 3rd and I am left with few infestors and no ultras left over. I had my GS morphing during the attack so I followed up with brood lords, but my gas was so low since I morphed so many banes to kill his 4th. The game continued on from there, you can watch.
What could I do against this TT. I know I engaged once badly when his mothership initially popped but I only lost lings and a few banes, no big deal. Any other mistakes?
http://drop.sc/215219
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EPT
