Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions.
Ultra-noob Bronze player here, and I was wondering what you guys do to handle a Zerg that rushes for Roaches? I'm getting pretty close to promotion and have been finding that I lose against almost all Silver Zergs because I'm always totally unprepared for early Roach pushes.
Someone who makes roaches early on, you will never beat in roach count (in time for the rush, that is).
Hold with 2 spines, and reactive speedlings (ie just make a 2nd spine, since you should have already made 1 for your expo for ling/bane, and then a 2nd when you see him push out or realize what's up).
You hold it the exact same as if you thought he was doing a ling/bane all-in, basically, just make reactive lings/speedlings when he pushes out. Roaches anytime before 50 supply get owned by speedlings (or slowlings on creep) and a spine or few, depending how late the push is (1 base roach = 1-2 spines with lings, 2 base roach/ling all-in = 5 spines and speedlings).
You won't beat his roach count, he's been making roaches much longer than you. Anyone saying to make roaches to beat it is wrong. But it's something like 4 lings beat a single roach, so with spine, queen, and creep support, roaches get owned.
Theres a reason you never see roach all-ins in pro play. It's just so easy to stop, you just make a few more spines when he pushes out and by the time he arrives you win. You just beat it with good macro, if you droned hard enough, you should easily be able to throw down enough spines.
Out of most of the pro ZvZ games that i watch it transitions into roach hydra infestor. How do you keep yourself safe and get there? It seems like securing the third base is so important in ZvZ and is where most of the fighting gos on.
You should secure your third with ~4 banelings around 40-50 supply (thats why nestea lost his third vs drg, he didnt have banes, because he was trying to metagame drg by going defensive roach instead of defensive bane, which was good in short term, but meant he couldnt secure his third).
You basically max out on roach/hydra on 3 base, and then go infestors. vs someone going roach/infestor on 3 base, you just kill them with a push at 180+, and you should straight up win anyone being that 'greedy'.
Once you are both maxed, go for your fourth. From there, it's a mix - get hive for 3/3 (dont start spire until after hive is done and way later on...) - more infestors means you can handle mass roach better, but means later broodlords, but quicker broodlords means you'll have a harder time dealing with mass roach. Eventually you will have mass spines everywhere to deal with roach counterattacks, and have the 'right' count of infestors so if he tries to counterattack against your broodlords, your infestors will stop him long enough for you to get back in time. You cant not get broodlords, but similarly, it's probably near impossible to get to broodlords.
Also, there's a metagame shift toward ultras, even with roach/hydra/infestor going to ultras instead of broodlords. Either way, if you are playing a roach based game vs roach, you should rarely see ultra or bl.
How am I supposed to deal with mass mutalisks in zvz late game?
I use speedlings to deny his third a couple of times, but he'll get it up eventually. I use roaches to try some busting but versus decent players, they often have shit tons of lings + spines so it won't do enough economical damage. His mutalisks keep me contained but I can't keep canceling his third. My infestors start popping out and together with my queens, i'm able to take a third as well. His muta count keeps growing though. I find the queen push to not be that good since he'll just attack my bases if the queens are out of position on the map. They split their muta's well so just infestors won't cut it versus the mutalisks. So the problem is, his muta count keeps growing, he'll be able to take fourth/fifth, while it's a lot harder for me. I need my queens in my bases. I can't do roach/infestors pushes all that well, since he'll just split his mutalisks really well, combined with speedlings, owns my army pretty much.
Should I get hydra's? I've learned that making hydra's immediately is a bad response, queens/drones/infestors is way better. But perhaps if his muta count keeps growing, I will need hydra's? Because I can't move out with anything roach based since it will get owned by muta's/lings (we're talking about a lot of muta's eventually). Since infestors can counter banelings. Roaches can tank speedlings. And hydra's combined with infestors again can own the mutalisks? perhaps the hydra's will also allow me to take extra bases? Or should I go for corruptors? Problem with corruptors though is that he is a lot faster than me and if he stops making mutalisks, i'll have worthless corruptors.
Please help :D
I would post a replay, but I've only played like 10 games. The previous games I played were 1-2 months ago, and the games before that 1+ year. lol
So the replay has a lot of obvious mistakes in the begin and mid game where I could have ended the game straight away and it would be pointless to comment on those, since I'm sure if I grow better, I'll meet better players who could avoid those issues and get a flock of muta's anyway. (talking 40-50 muta's here).
On July 06 2012 08:18 wcr.4fun wrote: How am I supposed to deal with mass mutalisks in zvz late game?
I use speedlings to deny his third a couple of times, but he'll get it up eventually. I use roaches to try some busting but versus decent players, they often have shit tons of lings + spines so it won't do enough economical damage. His mutalisks keep me contained but I can't keep canceling his third. My infestors start popping out and together with my queens, i'm able to take a third as well. His muta count keeps growing though. I find the queen push to not be that good since he'll just attack my bases if the queens are out of position on the map. They split their muta's well so just infestors won't cut it versus the mutalisks. So the problem is, his muta count keeps growing, he'll be able to take fourth/fifth, while it's a lot harder for me. I need my queens in my bases. I can't do roach/infestors pushes all that well, since he'll just split his mutalisks really well, combined with speedlings, owns my army pretty much.
Should I get hydra's? I've learned that making hydra's immediately is a bad response, queens/drones/infestors is way better. But perhaps if his muta count keeps growing, I will need hydra's? Because I can't move out with anything roach based since it will get owned by muta's/lings (we're talking about a lot of muta's eventually). Since infestors can counter banelings. Roaches can tank speedlings. And hydra's combined with infestors again can own the mutalisks? perhaps the hydra's will also allow me to take extra bases? Or should I go for corruptors? Problem with corruptors though is that he is a lot faster than me and if he stops making mutalisks, i'll have worthless corruptors.
Please help :D
I would post a replay, but I've only played like 10 games. The previous games I played were 1-2 months ago, and the games before that 1+ year. lol
So the replay has a lot of obvious mistakes in the begin and mid game where I could have ended the game straight away and it would be pointless to comment on those, since I'm sure if I grow better, I'll meet better players who could avoid those issues and get a flock of muta's anyway. (talking 40-50 muta's here).
I've never experienced 50 mutas in a ZvZ, but I would have to recommend the ridiculously common unit comp of roach hydra infestor, like you suggested. Ever seen 2-2 hydras with FG against mutas? It's dirty. So get few roaches, and get ~10-20 infestors (more if you are prone to misclicks/he's constantly attacking/he's good enough to snipe them with groups of 2-4 mutas).
I really can't imagine someone with 100 supply in mutas, at least 50 in drones, being able to take on your army. Either force an engagement with fungal, or MAYBE basetrade. I don't recommend ever basetrading vs mutas unless you have mass spores.
Just lost four ZvP games to a 2base push at around 12-14min... two games was Stalker Immortal mix and two games was Stalker Sentry mix. I felt like I knew it was comming everytime but could never hold it All i hade was 1/1roaches and some lings but never eaven nearly enough since I like the drone button... Any suggestions on how and when to look for this and how to hold the push? Thanks.
On July 06 2012 08:18 wcr.4fun wrote: How am I supposed to deal with mass mutalisks in zvz late game?
I use speedlings to deny his third a couple of times, but he'll get it up eventually. I use roaches to try some busting but versus decent players, they often have shit tons of lings + spines so it won't do enough economical damage. His mutalisks keep me contained but I can't keep canceling his third. My infestors start popping out and together with my queens, i'm able to take a third as well. His muta count keeps growing though. I find the queen push to not be that good since he'll just attack my bases if the queens are out of position on the map. They split their muta's well so just infestors won't cut it versus the mutalisks. So the problem is, his muta count keeps growing, he'll be able to take fourth/fifth, while it's a lot harder for me. I need my queens in my bases. I can't do roach/infestors pushes all that well, since he'll just split his mutalisks really well, combined with speedlings, owns my army pretty much.
Should I get hydra's? I've learned that making hydra's immediately is a bad response, queens/drones/infestors is way better. But perhaps if his muta count keeps growing, I will need hydra's? Because I can't move out with anything roach based since it will get owned by muta's/lings (we're talking about a lot of muta's eventually). Since infestors can counter banelings. Roaches can tank speedlings. And hydra's combined with infestors again can own the mutalisks? perhaps the hydra's will also allow me to take extra bases? Or should I go for corruptors? Problem with corruptors though is that he is a lot faster than me and if he stops making mutalisks, i'll have worthless corruptors.
Please help :D
I would post a replay, but I've only played like 10 games. The previous games I played were 1-2 months ago, and the games before that 1+ year. lol
So the replay has a lot of obvious mistakes in the begin and mid game where I could have ended the game straight away and it would be pointless to comment on those, since I'm sure if I grow better, I'll meet better players who could avoid those issues and get a flock of muta's anyway. (talking 40-50 muta's here).
Take a 3rd base with queens/spores/infestors, like you did. Sit on 3 bases and get a decent infestor count (about 6 or 7) and then drop a hydra den. Make a good bit of hydras and then pump roaches until you hit around 180 supply then push. You may need to scout if he transitioned into roaches and is doing a roach attack before you start making hydras, as you might need to make the roaches before the hydras if he is doing this. When you push you should have 6-7 infestors with a lot of energy on each of them, about 15 hydras and 25 roaches.
You'll always need hydras against more than 10+ mutas because infestors alone won't cut it. Just be sure to have at least an overseer, one for changeling and scout for infestors / army's comp and another for any nasty burrowed banes / infestors.
Never experienced much with queens yet (instead of hydras), but i guess it could work against a few mutas ? Dunno.
Thanks for the responses so far, I'll definitely try out hydralisks. So far I've hesitated to use them because everyone always calls them a bad/fragile/too costly unit.
On July 06 2012 10:54 wcr.4fun wrote: Thanks for the responses so far, I'll definitely try out hydralisks. So far I've hesitated to use them because everyone always calls them a bad/fragile/too costly unit.
They are actually really good in ZvZ, some people prefer them over infestors. And unless you are going ultralisks in the lategame they are pretty much mandatory in late game zvz.
On July 06 2012 10:54 wcr.4fun wrote: Thanks for the responses so far, I'll definitely try out hydralisks. So far I've hesitated to use them because everyone always calls them a bad/fragile/too costly unit.
Roach/Hydra/Infestor easily beats mass muta builds with proper fungals.
On July 06 2012 10:16 GIRRGIRR wrote: Just lost four ZvP games to a 2base push at around 12-14min... two games was Stalker Immortal mix and two games was Stalker Sentry mix. I felt like I knew it was comming everytime but could never hold it All i hade was 1/1roaches and some lings but never eaven nearly enough since I like the drone button... Any suggestions on how and when to look for this and how to hold the push? Thanks.
Hi! To hold these, you need to do two things: 1) scout for what exactly is coming, 2) have a really good macro. You should read Belial's ZvP guide where he explains how to scout the protoss, what to look at and how to react. Basically based on the amount of gas taken and gateways built you figure out if it's an all in or not and either build an army like a madman or start teching and taking more bases. Also look at these replays that showcase a solid way of beating a very hard immortal/sentry all-in.
Mid-masters zerg here- What's the best way to deal with that 10-11 minute sentry/immortal push with a forward warp prism that protoss have been doing? I've been having absolutely no success with mass roach ling even when I macro near-perfectly (never missing an inject, not getting supply blocked once, scouting the double gas, etc). It's gotten to the point where I can't win zvp's where the protoss does this push anymore. Do I need to stay on 4 gas until I hold it? Infestors come too late, even with lair at your first 100 gas with a double gas at 6 minute build
On July 06 2012 10:54 wcr.4fun wrote: Thanks for the responses so far, I'll definitely try out hydralisks. So far I've hesitated to use them because everyone always calls them a bad/fragile/too costly unit.
I will just add that you really want to engage his mutas with a bunch of hydras not just 2-3 as they pop out. Because they are still light units and mutas just erase them if you dont engage properly. I had so much qq from other zergs because of that.
On the other hand i still think that one good fungal can win you a game like this against mutas.
Mid-masters zerg here- What's the best way to deal with that 10-11 minute sentry/immortal push with a forward warp prism that protoss have been doing? I've been having absolutely no success with mass roach ling even when I macro near-perfectly (never missing an inject, not getting supply blocked once, scouting the double gas, etc). It's gotten to the point where I can't win zvp's where the protoss does this push anymore. Do I need to stay on 4 gas until I hold it? Infestors come too late, even with lair at your first 100 gas with a double gas at 6 minute build
Check out the "nestea anti-immortal sentry build" thread. It discusses how to deal with the imortal/sentry all-in basically.
You just mass roach/ling after 8:30. It seems recently people are doing that, but instead base trading, massing spines at their nat, so Toss is stuck on 1 base while Zerg is on 2, and then zerg eventually gets enough mass roach to win the straight up fight after the timing. I don't know if it's 'caught on' yet, but the only example in gomtv where the immortal/sentry lost, was when someone did this. Blade55555 has made some excellent replies in the last few pages about that.
On July 06 2012 16:35 Noak3 wrote: Mid-masters zerg here- What's the best way to deal with that 10-11 minute sentry/immortal push with a forward warp prism that protoss have been doing? I've been having absolutely no success with mass roach ling even when I macro near-perfectly (never missing an inject, not getting supply blocked once, scouting the double gas, etc). It's gotten to the point where I can't win zvp's where the protoss does this push anymore. Do I need to stay on 4 gas until I hold it? Infestors come too late, even with lair at your first 100 gas with a double gas at 6 minute build
I've seen a lot of stephano games where he absolutely crushes it. The metagame has switched towards melee and carapace upgrade so add a lot of lings. Most important part seems to be though, you have to basically be at the ramp of the protoss. The second he tries to move out with his army, you have to engage him with lings/roach. You drain his energy of all his sentries and you can even focus down immortals (cost ineffecient). Because without immortals and sentry energy, that push is doomed. And since you're engaging near his base, you'll have time enough to remake your army. Nevertheless, try to save as many roaches as possible, don't throw them away. If you snipe 1-2 immortals and wasted tons of forcefields, but you see your roaches just wiggling around doing zero damage retreat them a screen or two and engage again with new reinforcements. As of now I can only think of a game where the toss used this general strategy but he went for an expansion instead of attacking, but the army composition is basically the same, check it out.
Is there anyway you can handle ultra's without having more ultra's yourself? If he has infestors, you can't kite them with roaches. If you can kite him, I'm no mkp so I will start slipping on my macro and get tired of all the kiting eventually. But as soon as I stop those ultra's rape literally rape through my army. Mutalisks might be worth considering, but I think he can kill my bases faster than I can kill his and in most games I don't start out with a spire. Infestors get raped, roaches get raped, speedlings get raped, banelings get raped, hydra's get raped, everything gets raped basically. Broodlords are way too slow, he'll just kill all my bases. Seems like ultras are the ultimate zvz unit which you can only counter by either having more ultra's? Although I remember seeing some games of violet (i think) vs stephano at redbull? Violet put up a good fight through using roach hit and run squads. Just go for basetrade, try to avoid the ultra's. Hit at multiple spots, groups of 20 roaches can easily handle 2-3 ultra's if you micro them correctly. Trying to avoid a big clash seems the good thing to do. Opinions?
Ok, here is that replay of me playing vs. a diamond terran: http://drop.sc/215539 I tried to execute the 3 base roach/ling/bane aggression, but was heavily thrown off by his pressure. I fortunately held a bunker rush at my third with a lucky break scouting it. I'd like to mention that I was dealing with about 2 seconds of lag that game, it was ridiculous. This contributed to the horrid mismicros, such as losing 4 roaches then engaging up a ramp. Even then, how do you deal with terrans that make hellion/marauder with some marines? I've lost to this all-in many times before, and while this game my opponent wasn't all in, he wasn't far off. I definitely left way too early, but I was tired of the lag, and I really hate hellions
On July 06 2012 16:35 Noak3 wrote: Mid-masters zerg here- What's the best way to deal with that 10-11 minute sentry/immortal push with a forward warp prism that protoss have been doing? I've been having absolutely no success with mass roach ling even when I macro near-perfectly (never missing an inject, not getting supply blocked once, scouting the double gas, etc). It's gotten to the point where I can't win zvp's where the protoss does this push anymore. Do I need to stay on 4 gas until I hold it? Infestors come too late, even with lair at your first 100 gas with a double gas at 6 minute build
hi, i think that the reply were really usefull.. anyway i just want to add that i saw Symbol in the GSL hold off this sentry immortal push/allin dropping roach/ling in the mid of the toss army.. this can sound really strange but worked perfectly in the game that Symbol played. If u are interested i think is the one vs Squirtle (the last series of group B)!
^ That was not an immortal/sentry all-in timing, as Squirtle did some really weird opening so the timing came like 2 minutes later, which is when Zerg can easily handle immortal/sentry.
You can't get drop tech in time against immortal//sentry all-in. At best maybe you could base trade with it, or maybe what Symbol is doing is getting drop tech and massing roach/ling like normal and if Toss is actually expanding, he attacks with drops, I don't know what his line of thought is, but you can't get it in time for the straight up push, and the games with Symbol vs immortal/sentry weren't exactly against the immortal/sentry timing push.
I tried to execute the 3 base roach/ling/bane aggression, but was heavily thrown off by his pressure. I fortunately held a bunker rush at my third with a lucky break scouting it. I'd like to mention that I was dealing with about 2 seconds of lag that game, it was ridiculous. This contributed to the horrid mismicros, such as losing 4 roaches then engaging up a ramp. Even then, how do you deal with terrans that make hellion/marauder with some marines? I've lost to this all-in many times before, and while this game my opponent wasn't all in, he wasn't far off. I definitely left way too early, but I was tired of the lag, and I really hate hellions
You need to sac an overlord around 40+ supply to see what terran is doing, and roach/bane aggression is going to be a LOT weaker if you take a third. I don't think many people do that anymore, instead doing a 2 base attack and taking a third if it fails.
You need to see if Terran is making marauders or has lots of rax with your overlord. If he does, you really can't drone up your third at all. Marauder timings really mean you just absolutely can't drone up your third, ie mm, m/hellion. You also need to know if he's doing something like banshees, or if he took a quick third.
Is there anyway you can handle ultra's without having more ultra's yourself? If he has infestors, you can't kite them with roaches. If you can kite him, I'm no mkp so I will start slipping on my macro and get tired of all the kiting eventually. But as soon as I stop those ultra's rape literally rape through my army. Mutalisks might be worth considering, but I think he can kill my bases faster than I can kill his and in most games I don't start out with a spire. Infestors get raped, roaches get raped, speedlings get raped, banelings get raped, hydra's get raped, everything gets raped basically. Broodlords are way too slow, he'll just kill all my bases. Seems like ultras are the ultimate zvz unit which you can only counter by either having more ultra's? Although I remember seeing some games of violet (i think) vs stephano at redbull? Violet put up a good fight through using roach hit and run squads. Just go for basetrade, try to avoid the ultra's. Hit at multiple spots, groups of 20 roaches can easily handle 2-3 ultra's if you micro them correctly. Trying to avoid a big clash seems the good thing to do. Opinions?
You see him going ling/infestor, you KNOW he's going to go for ultras. There's a few things you can do.
1. What I advise - cut roach production completely, don't get any infestors (maybe 1-2, really dont get any at all), and rush ultras. The biggest counter to ling/infestor is ultras, ultras dominate infestors in less than 10 full energy infestors, as well as lings, and ling/infesto vs ling/infestor games are decided purely on who gets ultras first. 2. Play ultra defensive, take your fourth immediately, never move out or else you'll get raped by counterattacks, even if you leave lots of banes or roaches at home. Mass infestors, so by the time he gets ultras out, you just have enough infestors to spam IT everywhere. 3. You can also do various roach attacks, nydus, drops, but this depend on the opponent screwing up. A really good thing to do though - if you go 2 base lair, and you see what he's up to, if he takes a third, tech switching to roaches can be really strong, as well as going mutas quickly into mass roach if he takes a third.
But I would agree that ultras are OP in zvz, and that macro is broken. Doesn't matter wtf you do in zvz, just herp derp on 2 base ling/infestor and eventually take a third so you get ultras on 3 base. I think it's bullshit, which is why I started doing it myself, because I don't see how to beat it with standard, macro based third before lair play.
On July 06 2012 16:35 Noak3 wrote: Mid-masters zerg here- What's the best way to deal with that 10-11 minute sentry/immortal push with a forward warp prism that protoss have been doing? I've been having absolutely no success with mass roach ling even when I macro near-perfectly (never missing an inject, not getting supply blocked once, scouting the double gas, etc). It's gotten to the point where I can't win zvp's where the protoss does this push anymore. Do I need to stay on 4 gas until I hold it? Infestors come too late, even with lair at your first 100 gas with a double gas at 6 minute build
I've had good success holding this off with infestors. I know it is quite unorthodox (I haven't seen anyone else try it) but it actually works very well. So you do your standard gasless 3 hatch opener, grab your gases at whatever time you normally do, grab lair with first 100 gas (then go up to 4 gas), then get speed, then +1 missile, pretty standard stuff. Get your macro hatch after you start +1 missile but before lair finishes and get a 4th queen when the hatch is 50% done to get your production way up. When your lair finishes drop an infestation pit right away, and grab a 5th gas. You could sac an overseer when your lair finishes to confirm the push is coming, more on this later. Once you hit 62-65 drones start massing lings. Like a lot of them. Keep them outside P's natural and wait from him to push. Now once pathogen glands is 30s in make 5 infestors. Gas is a little tight so you shouldn't be left with too much after this. +1 missile should finish around this time as well, if he is pushing do not start another upgrade. After you make your 5 infestors start making roaches and lings.
Now for the execution. Since your lings will be outside P's nat you must make sure your overlord spread is good to spot any warp prism that is commonly made with the push. Sometimes P drops with it when they push, sometimes they don't and just use to reinfroce, and sometimes they drop and just expand, but either way you must be ready. If you spot the warp prism pull some lings back to defend and make about 5 roaches. You probably will have to cut the 5th infestor if you have to make roaches to defend a drop. When P moves out try to bait forcefields. Try not to lose too many lings and don't try to pick off any units, just delay him as long as possible. If he doesn't wall off try to run up in his nat and main, that should delay him a long time or force him to allin with his attack since you have so many lings. Keep your lings behind his army as he moves across the map to flank him when the engagement happens. This is kind of hard since he may move backwards to try to kill your lings before the main engagement, so try to keep them a fair distance away and pay close attention to them. Find where you want to engage his army on the map and try to engage there. Make a wide concave with your roaches, preferably from at least 2 angles. When he drops the forcefields around his army (he must drop forcefields behind him too because of your flanking lings) drop all of your infestor's energy in infested terrans on top of his army. Do not fungal. It should clean him up.
Now the overseer scout is optional, since getting quick infestors is not a bad choice even if he decides to expand. If he expands you can grab burrow and do a roach/ ling/ infested terran push. If you want to do a drop allin, still make your infestation pit and 5th gas in case he pushes and make an overseer. You should be able to find out if he is pushing or not before your infestation pit finishes, so you have the option of cancelling it and starting drops. Leave the 5th gas up but you don't have to mine from it until later.
^ Please provide a replay, because I don't believe that you are facing immortal/sentry pushes that are pushing out around 9:00+ and inside your base by 10:35. No one in pro play has even attempted to get infestors, as far as I've seen, because you just won't have them in time.
The quickest possible time to get mutas in zvp going fast third is 10:33, and that's by not making a roach warren, getting 6 gas asap, and no upgrades. Infestors take 3 less seconds to get out at best. Immortal/sentry is inside your base at 10:30, so the infestors will be coming out 1 by 1 and dying, or you'll have 5 infestors pop, greeted by a huge army of Toss.
EPT
All i hade was 1/1roaches and some lings but never eaven nearly enough since I like the drone button...
