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On July 04 2012 03:23 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +I'm seeing some z's playing 4 queen style gasless in zvz... Does this actually work? So far I've just made lings out of my first inject pop and killed them... But I imagine it boosts your eco. Anyone familiar with this style? its okay if you are going 2 base lair style. just take a free third against it. It's an extremely defensive style that opts for as many drones as possible on 2 base, so when you see they don't have gas, you know they won't have any speed or banelings, so just respond by delaying your own speed and banelings and single spine as much as possible, and be greedy as fuck, like third before baneling nest.
It's just that I feel I can't outgreed my opponent since by the time I scout (other than my overlord/initial drone) I feel I can't ourgreed my opponent, since if I take a third he just takes a third while having more drones.
Like I said I generally just kill them so I have no idea if I'm supposed to be able to or not...
My main question though is if this is some kind of trend since I've been seeing it a lot lately in EU masters.
On July 04 2012 03:49 Nezi wrote:Show nested quote +I'm seeing some z's playing 4 queen style gasless in zvz... Does this actually work? So far I've just made lings out of my first inject pop and killed them... But I imagine it boosts your eco. Anyone familiar with this style? I commonly do this and go 2 base muta with some speedling pressure with the inital mutas while I take a 3rd. They shouldn't really die to pure ling attacks, as they will have 2 spines and 4 queens with 1 or 2 transfuses. If you want to kill them the best way to do it is to do a late baneling attack with a lot of banelings (as in like 15), since they don't have a baneling nest of their own they can't prevent your banelings from getting right up in their natural. You can kill all the spines and use the banes to deny lings from engaging. Although with good building, queen, and spine positioning they could hold. I would only recommend doing this sort of attack on some maps where the ramp is far away from the mineral line in the natural and the natural is wide-ish open. Entombed Valley, Atlantis Spaceship and a few others are like this. Maps like Ohana where the natural is very tight are far easier to defend on. If you want to play a longer game against the style take a fast 3rd as belial said and get a shitton of drones - don't bother making any spines. You want to get a fast-ish lair and try to see what he is doing with his lair tech with an overseer. There are many things you can do off of this opening, muta, ling infestor, speed roach timings etc. So you want to look for #1 a spire or infestation pit and #2 try to see if he is massing roaches, lings, or neither. You might need to make more than 1 overseer because 4 queens can kill a single overseer quite fast.
Fair enough.. Yeah when I said I make lings out of my first injects popping off I do have a baneling nest since it's simply part of my build, defensive banelings. I make 2 banes and keep making lings since I can outmicro slow lings and queens. It also hits before transfuses are available and I've never seen more than 1 spine up.
I just did this on a whim the first time I saw this but it was quite effective so I've seen no reason to stop so far.
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On July 04 2012 04:24 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 03:23 Belial88 wrote:I'm seeing some z's playing 4 queen style gasless in zvz... Does this actually work? So far I've just made lings out of my first inject pop and killed them... But I imagine it boosts your eco. Anyone familiar with this style? its okay if you are going 2 base lair style. just take a free third against it. It's an extremely defensive style that opts for as many drones as possible on 2 base, so when you see they don't have gas, you know they won't have any speed or banelings, so just respond by delaying your own speed and banelings and single spine as much as possible, and be greedy as fuck, like third before baneling nest. It's just that I feel I can't outgreed my opponent since by the time I scout (other than my overlord/initial drone) I feel I can't ourgreed my opponent, since if I take a third he just takes a third while having more drones. Like I said I generally just kill them so I have no idea if I'm supposed to be able to or not... My main question though is if this is some kind of trend since I've been seeing it a lot lately in EU masters. Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 03:49 Nezi wrote:I'm seeing some z's playing 4 queen style gasless in zvz... Does this actually work? So far I've just made lings out of my first inject pop and killed them... But I imagine it boosts your eco. Anyone familiar with this style? I commonly do this and go 2 base muta with some speedling pressure with the inital mutas while I take a 3rd. They shouldn't really die to pure ling attacks, as they will have 2 spines and 4 queens with 1 or 2 transfuses. If you want to kill them the best way to do it is to do a late baneling attack with a lot of banelings (as in like 15), since they don't have a baneling nest of their own they can't prevent your banelings from getting right up in their natural. You can kill all the spines and use the banes to deny lings from engaging. Although with good building, queen, and spine positioning they could hold. I would only recommend doing this sort of attack on some maps where the ramp is far away from the mineral line in the natural and the natural is wide-ish open. Entombed Valley, Atlantis Spaceship and a few others are like this. Maps like Ohana where the natural is very tight are far easier to defend on. If you want to play a longer game against the style take a fast 3rd as belial said and get a shitton of drones - don't bother making any spines. You want to get a fast-ish lair and try to see what he is doing with his lair tech with an overseer. There are many things you can do off of this opening, muta, ling infestor, speed roach timings etc. So you want to look for #1 a spire or infestation pit and #2 try to see if he is massing roaches, lings, or neither. You might need to make more than 1 overseer because 4 queens can kill a single overseer quite fast. Fair enough.. Yeah when I said I make lings out of my first injects popping off I do have a baneling nest since it's simply part of my build, defensive banelings. I make 2 banes and keep making lings since I can outmicro slow lings and queens. It also hits before transfuses are available and I've never seen more than 1 spine up. I just did this on a whim the first time I saw this but it was quite effective so I've seen no reason to stop so far.
You shouldn't be too worried about out-greeding gasless zergs, I think. Generally, once I've scouted them going gasless, I take a third real fast, then try to use speedlings to pressure and deny third/harass a bit, then just put my gas into upgrades. They may have the potential to drone harder with the extra minerals, but I'll have stronger units because of the extra gas.
I like to use a lot of speedlings to deny their third while securing mine, and just monitoring their ling count. I've noticed some people overproduce lings a bit, then once their speed finishes, they come attack into me, so I try to have a handful of banelings ready, alongside the lings I had harassing prior. Having a third up before them when their idea was to be greedy puts them in an uncomfortable position, I think. I haven't had a ton of experience playing vs gasless openers though, just a little bit.
I guess what I'm saying is don't try to beat them at their own game, maximize the tech advantage first, and from there you can switch into crushing them economically.
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Whatsup with dumbfuck protoss doing some sort of void ray all-in at 10:00. They come with like 10-15 void rays and herpderp your way to a win. They also put it away from their main but also make like 5 gateways, whats up with this retardation? Who did this on stream..
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On July 04 2012 06:50 Rk0 wrote:
Whatsup with dumbfuck protoss doing some sort of void ray all-in at 10:00. They come with like 10-15 void rays and herpderp your way to a win. They also put it away from their main but also make like 5 gateways, whats up with this retardation? Who did this on stream..
Excellent question. Here's a link to answer that. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=whywouldyouaskthat
+ Show Spoiler +That build has been around for a LONG time, it's not just something created recently.
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It's just that I feel I can't outgreed my opponent since by the time I scout (other than my overlord/initial drone) I feel I can't ourgreed my opponent, since if I take a third he just takes a third while having more drones.
He made 2 extra queens, he shouldn't be ahead of you in drones, even if you made a bane nest and speed. And no, he can't take a third because he has no speedlings or banelings. You can only take your third with ~4 banelings (that or a shitton of roaches, which doesn't really happen...).
So you see him go gasless, and later check up and see he has extra queens and spines. You respond by taking a free third. You see he takes his third? Make a round of speedlings, go kill his third, because he won't have banelings to secure it.
Him making 4 queens and 2 spines, and you making speed, bane nest, spine, should put you about even. The difference is that his 4 queens and 2 spines will stop anything cold, while you have to make more and more banes/lings against aggression (although an initial reactive 2-4 banes will buy you time). So it's 'better' if someone is stupid enough to all-in you, but when you see someone making 2+ spines and 4 queens, you should respond with a third base, and if the opponent tries to take a third, you deny it with a round of speedlings. You'll be even on drones, but the difference is he can't take a third while you can.
You definitely should not try to kill someone if they are massing static defense though. That's the worst idea. That's like terrans who think they should all-in zerg these days with more hellions because of the queen buff, or running into a choke full of sentries against Toss.
I don't think like a mass 15+ baneling attack would kill 4 queens with 2 spines, and they should reactively make more spines as he sees you not take a third or get extra gas or your lower drone count at your natural (true, he can't scout as well due to lack of speed, but he still has an overlord in front of your base to see lings move out, as well as an overlord by your nat)., and 4 queen/2 spine can stop most aggression with good micro, and 4 queen/4 spine just stops anything.
There was a GSL game where someone held a roach/bane all-in using just 4 queens, 2 spines, so the style is basically a brick wall. But a brick wall can't move out, which is why you should play greedy against it.
And why are you making lings out of your first injects? If you are going hatch first, you should only make lings when you see the opponent send out lings, and if he doesn't, you just make them when your baneling nest is nearing completion.
Whatsup with dumbfuck protoss doing some sort of void ray all-in at 10:00. They come with like 10-15 void rays and herpderp your way to a win. They also put it away from their main but also make like 5 gateways, whats up with this retardation? Who did this on stream..
You are either lying or exaggerating, the most Toss can have is 6 at 10:00, which is somewhat unrealistic, you are more likely to see 4-5. But definitely no more than 6...
I you check out my ZvP guide, I go in-depth about the double stargate all-in. It's extremely easy to hold. It's an all-in, if you are caught with your pants down, desperately pull all queens to the base that's being attacked, and throw down 10 spores at that base, he'll kill maybe 4 of them in the process of morphing but then he'll have to back off, and you can cancel excess spores, and you win because he didn't kill more than a base with the attack.
Making 5 gateways after the double stargate opening is just a followup. It shouldn't matter, you should just have a monumental lead now because you'll forever deny their third, and you can just get infestors or hydras or whatever you want to close the game.
DRG vs Genius GSL finals are an example of how bad this strategy is too.
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On July 04 2012 07:08 Belial88 wrote:
And why are you making lings out of your first injects? If you are going hatch first, you should only make lings when you see the opponent send out lings, and if he doesn't, you just make them when your baneling nest is nearing completion.
Like I said it was my kneejerk reaction to seeing no gas for the first time in.... well as long as I can remember. Not a normal play for me.
It worked, a couple of times... easily. That was the confusing part.
Each time my opponent would have 2 queens on the ramp, one at the natural hatchery and 1 spine done with maybe an additional 2 making, and perhaps 6 slow lings that they just built reactively (which apparently is not a word)
The thing about the timing of these lings is... nothing looks wrong even if you get full scouting info.
Speed and bane nest about to finish, ~20 lings pop at the same time. Before that moment you have the same amount of drones you would if you were purely droning.
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On July 02 2012 00:08 arie3000 wrote:
I have some issues vs. P. Ok, I'm in the lower leagues so there's a lot to improve on, but I lose a disproportionate amount of games to P lately.
I try to do this Roach-ling style, meaning that a good player is maxed at 11-12 minutes, while I am at 13-14 minutes. Often I can kill the third, and contain the P at least for a while. Then, they often tech a bit more (on 2 base), get 2 colli and just crush me.
I feel that the roach unit composition is very fragile, in the sense that when the P breaks you, it is gg, because a maxed Z army won't stand a chance.
Is it wise to tech to hive earlier? I have difficulties in the transition, teching too hard can lose you a game, but if they come with their 180 pop deathball it is gg too... I've tried to make forests of spine crawlers (which helps), but it doesn't really work on maps like cloud kingdom, they can either attack the nat or the third, and it is not all 'coverable' with spines. Making this many spines feels a little stupid too, there should be a better way of solving this....
You should be taking your 4th and dropping your infestation pit as you're doing your pressure at their 3rd base. Get pathogen glands and start your hive tech (build your spire as you start your hive)
When you are maxed out, you want to be using drones to make spine crawlers to free up supply for your broodlords, while you're adding infestors to your army as you're engaging.
Another important thing is if you deny the third and they intend to turtle up on 2 base for a while and then try one all in push, don't engage outside of your base (or even on your half of the map). Since they've been stuck on 2 base for so long, their push will not reinforce (or barely), and if you're fighting on your half of the map, your reinforcements will never get a chance to mass up together to be effective (instead they'll die in clumps of 10 roaches while doing nothing). If you fight on their half of the map however, by the time they kill your first army and start to move across the map your second army should be rallying and ready to go. If your 400 food of army can't kill the protoss 2 base all in after you've denied their third, you're either way behind on upgrades or making seriously poor engagement decisions (ie fighting in a tight choke, not getting a good concave, using pure ling remax vs colossi, etc)
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On July 04 2012 07:45 Durp wrote:
When you are maxed out, you want to be using drones to make spine crawlers to free up supply for your broodlords, while you're adding infestors to your army as you're engaging.
Not entirely accurate, unless you overmade drones all game and planned on doing this. Or if what you meant was cancelling the spines and having 230/200.
Usually you wanna make a giant spine wall, remake the drones, and then try to kill your roaches as cost-efficiently as possible (try drop-tech, nexus snipes or run-bys!). Then you make your broodlord ball, and hope you made enough spines to hold until they finish (infestor spine delays the protoss a TON).
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So I've been seeing recently where at gomtv, zergs will drone scout in zvt, typical ~13 drone scout, and if they see a CC first, they reactively go third hatch before pool.
I've been doing it on ladder, and holy shit it's powerful.
http://drop.sc/214276
http://drop.sc/214277
anyone else doing this?
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On July 04 2012 15:10 Belial88 wrote:So I've been seeing recently where at gomtv, zergs will drone scout in zvt, typical ~13 drone scout, and if they see a CC first, they reactively go third hatch before pool. I've been doing it on ladder, and holy shit it's powerful. http://drop.sc/214276http://drop.sc/214277anyone else doing this?
I was under the impression that it wasn't that good due to delayed queens, and not being able to spend all that larvae anyway that early. Is it not more beneficial to go early 2 queens and then an earlier than normal third ZvPish style?
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On July 04 2012 15:35 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 15:10 Belial88 wrote:So I've been seeing recently where at gomtv, zergs will drone scout in zvt, typical ~13 drone scout, and if they see a CC first, they reactively go third hatch before pool. I've been doing it on ladder, and holy shit it's powerful. http://drop.sc/214276http://drop.sc/214277anyone else doing this? I was under the impression that it wasn't that good due to delayed queens, and not being able to spend all that larvae anyway that early. Is it not more beneficial to go early 2 queens and then an earlier than normal third ZvPish style?
It's actually really good. I do it when I scout it and I watched a few replays and I saw myself getting more drones at I think it was 7 minutes? Then not going 3 hatch before pool.
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On July 04 2012 15:42 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 15:35 Tachion wrote:On July 04 2012 15:10 Belial88 wrote:So I've been seeing recently where at gomtv, zergs will drone scout in zvt, typical ~13 drone scout, and if they see a CC first, they reactively go third hatch before pool. I've been doing it on ladder, and holy shit it's powerful. http://drop.sc/214276http://drop.sc/214277anyone else doing this? I was under the impression that it wasn't that good due to delayed queens, and not being able to spend all that larvae anyway that early. Is it not more beneficial to go early 2 queens and then an earlier than normal third ZvPish style? It's actually really good. I do it when I scout it and I watched a few replays and I saw myself getting more drones at I think i twas 7 minutes? Then the non 3 hatch before pool.
hrm, do you remember your hatch/queen timings?
I did 15 hatch 17 hatch 17 pool with double queen + slightly delayed third queen vs 15 hatch 17 pool 27 hatch and the latter came out ever so slightly ahead, 1~3 drone lead at a few different timings. Pretty insignificant difference on my end, but I doubt I have an optimal 3 hatch build, just from what I remember from some random GSL Zerg.
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On July 04 2012 16:13 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 15:42 blade55555 wrote:On July 04 2012 15:35 Tachion wrote:On July 04 2012 15:10 Belial88 wrote:So I've been seeing recently where at gomtv, zergs will drone scout in zvt, typical ~13 drone scout, and if they see a CC first, they reactively go third hatch before pool. I've been doing it on ladder, and holy shit it's powerful. http://drop.sc/214276http://drop.sc/214277anyone else doing this? I was under the impression that it wasn't that good due to delayed queens, and not being able to spend all that larvae anyway that early. Is it not more beneficial to go early 2 queens and then an earlier than normal third ZvPish style? It's actually really good. I do it when I scout it and I watched a few replays and I saw myself getting more drones at I think i twas 7 minutes? Then the non 3 hatch before pool. hrm, do you remember your hatch/queen timings? I did 15 hatch 17 hatch 17 pool with double queen + slightly delayed third queen vs 15 hatch 17 pool 27 hatch and the latter came out ever so slightly ahead, 1~3 drone lead at a few different timings. Pretty insignificant difference on my end, but I doubt I have an optimal 3 hatch build, just from what I remember from some random GSL Zerg.
I haven't tested it but my gut tells me you probably want to make 2-3 drones after your 2nd queen and before your 3rd queen. That's the way it is in ZvP anyway.
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On July 04 2012 16:13 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 15:42 blade55555 wrote:On July 04 2012 15:35 Tachion wrote:On July 04 2012 15:10 Belial88 wrote:So I've been seeing recently where at gomtv, zergs will drone scout in zvt, typical ~13 drone scout, and if they see a CC first, they reactively go third hatch before pool. I've been doing it on ladder, and holy shit it's powerful. http://drop.sc/214276http://drop.sc/214277anyone else doing this? I was under the impression that it wasn't that good due to delayed queens, and not being able to spend all that larvae anyway that early. Is it not more beneficial to go early 2 queens and then an earlier than normal third ZvPish style? It's actually really good. I do it when I scout it and I watched a few replays and I saw myself getting more drones at I think i twas 7 minutes? Then the non 3 hatch before pool. hrm, do you remember your hatch/queen timings? I did 15 hatch 17 hatch 17 pool with double queen + slightly delayed third queen vs 15 hatch 17 pool 27 hatch and the latter came out ever so slightly ahead, 1~3 drone lead at a few different timings. Pretty insignificant difference on my end, but I doubt I have an optimal 3 hatch build, just from what I remember from some random GSL Zerg.
I just did 15 hatch, 17 hatch, 17 pool like you and double queen as well. Just drones and made queens and got my gas once I got my 4'th queen iirc. Would have to look at reps but it's pretty good vs a terran going 14 CC. (also funny when they call you greedy for going 3 hatch before pool but they go CC first lol).
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I had a game tonight that had a Terran going CC first, so I threw down a third hatch - figured I'd be safe to do that, and got whomped by this crazy marine-scv all in which I would have held if I'd made a bling nest earlier. Plus, you know, if I was better at this game >.>
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Talking about double hatch before pool.. I noticed CatZ does it in ZvP every time he sees a forge. He says he is able to defend and kind of cannon rush.
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On July 04 2012 17:58 Asolmanx wrote:
Talking about double hatch before pool.. I noticed CatZ does it in ZvP every time he sees a forge. He says he is able to defend and kind of cannon rush.
I've heard him say this before yet somehow half the times I watch his stream he's losing to cannons.
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On July 04 2012 19:18 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 17:58 Asolmanx wrote:
Talking about double hatch before pool.. I noticed CatZ does it in ZvP every time he sees a forge. He says he is able to defend and kind of cannon rush. I've heard him say this before yet somehow half the times I watch his stream he's losing to cannons.
I barely can defend a cannon rush going hatch first.. And to do so i get my economy to a point where going pool first gets me more money. You have to pull 1 or 2 drones to check the natural and it looses a ton of mining time. Also you have to not get the hatch blocked in the first place..
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CatZ is pretty intense from a standard Zergs perspective, he someimes goes 4 hatch before pool. For defending cannon rushes you need 4 drones attacking a constucting cannon to cancel, plus additional drones standing to block xannons from getting dropped. Easier just to pool if youre noy confident on your cannon defense.
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On July 04 2012 15:42 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 15:35 Tachion wrote:On July 04 2012 15:10 Belial88 wrote:So I've been seeing recently where at gomtv, zergs will drone scout in zvt, typical ~13 drone scout, and if they see a CC first, they reactively go third hatch before pool. I've been doing it on ladder, and holy shit it's powerful. http://drop.sc/214276http://drop.sc/214277anyone else doing this? I was under the impression that it wasn't that good due to delayed queens, and not being able to spend all that larvae anyway that early. Is it not more beneficial to go early 2 queens and then an earlier than normal third ZvPish style? It's actually really good. I do it when I scout it and I watched a few replays and I saw myself getting more drones at I think it was 7 minutes? Then not going 3 hatch before pool.
Hey blade, good to hear from you on this subject. I crapped all over the idea of 3rd hatch before pool in ZvT in a previous thread after doing some testing (custom vs very easy AI on Cloud), and I retested with your 15h 17h 17p version you listed below. While I managed to get a few more drones at 7min (3-4 more), I have a suspicion that it was only because the 15h 15p simply didn't have an inject done at that moment. At 8 min, I had hit 83 supply with 15h 15p, and 85 supply with 15h 17h 17p. This is with 0 excess queen energy, no gases taken, equal maynarding for both builds, saturation checks across all bases, building overlords out of the more saturated bases, and only momentary supply blocks (<1sec). Thus far I'm thinking that the economic benefit of three hatch before pool is relatively minor, and it seems to be because unlike in ZvP where you have the pool done and can produce queens as needed, here your pool becomes late enough that you lose nearly a whole inject, somewhat negating the benefit of the third hatch.
My big concern is that even against CC first (no other reason to even consider the build), the three hatch before pool is too vulnerable to bunkering, or marine pressure should they go up to, say, three rax after the CC. For the benefit I've observed, it doesn't seem worth the risk. Am I overestimating the risk? Underestimating the benefit?
I swear I must be missing something, though, because if both you and belial are in agreement that it is stronger, I must be doing something wrong.
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EPT
