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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On July 02 2012 15:59 eXeel wrote:
I played ZvT meching on Taldarim Altar and got harrassed a lot by packs of 12 blue flame hellions on my outer expansions.
Even when I got spine crawlers down, they just ran by. Needed only 10 seconds (and a scan) to kill all.
How do I keep these bases safe from this? Blocking with a queen and then not using that hatchery for rallying troops (since they get stuck)?
Or what? Lost 68 workers :S
Map awareness so you can catch them before they get to the base would be your best bet. Leaving a few roaches at the base with spine support would help a lot to. In general you well want to intercept the hellions as 12 BFH's will roast almost any drone line no matter what unless you have quiet a few spines or a good sim city so that they can't.
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On July 02 2012 15:59 eXeel wrote:
I played ZvT meching on Taldarim Altar and got harrassed a lot by packs of 12 blue flame hellions on my outer expansions.
Even when I got spine crawlers down, they just ran by. Needed only 10 seconds (and a scan) to kill all.
How do I keep these bases safe from this? Blocking with a queen and then not using that hatchery for rallying troops (since they get stuck)?
Or what? Lost 68 workers :S
You can get a nydus to evacuate all of the drones into the Nydus when the hellion come, so you don't loose workers. Else you could get drop and have some overlords over the drones, and pick them up when hellions come.
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I have a question myself about ZvP. I struggle a lot in this matchup and i feel that most of it is because my build isn't optimal and i miss some things here and there. So:
In ZvP i like to get the first gas right after my third (around 4:30 - 22-23 supply), and get fast ling speed while keeping guys in gas. When should i make my third queen? And is there any way to get at least 1 creep tumor going?
Also, When doing this fast ling speed build, If i want to go banelings with upgrades and drop tech, when should i get my other gases?
Last question: Is there any point where i should be making lings no matter what? Like to go scout around the map and look for proxies, or to have lings ready for morphing when i see his army going out of his base, or maybe just because If you start making them after he pushes out of his base it becomes too late.
Thanks in advance
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In PvZ when going 15 pool, 16 hatch, what is the best way to deal with double pylon block at natural and 3rd. I normally get queen at 16 then 2 lings at 18, but if I'm denied any expo my build kind of falls apart.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On July 02 2012 18:34 Asolmanx wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 15:59 eXeel wrote:
I played ZvT meching on Taldarim Altar and got harrassed a lot by packs of 12 blue flame hellions on my outer expansions.
Even when I got spine crawlers down, they just ran by. Needed only 10 seconds (and a scan) to kill all.
How do I keep these bases safe from this? Blocking with a queen and then not using that hatchery for rallying troops (since they get stuck)?
Or what? Lost 68 workers :S I have a question myself about ZvP. I struggle a lot in this matchup and i feel that most of it is because my build isn't optimal and i miss some things here and there. So: In ZvP i like to get the first gas right after my third (around 4:30 - 22-23 supply), and get fast ling speed while keeping guys in gas. When should i make my third queen? And is there any way to get at least 1 creep tumor going? Also, When doing this fast ling speed build, If i want to go banelings with upgrades and drop tech, when should i get my other gases? Last question: Is there any point where i should be making lings no matter what? Like to go scout around the map and look for proxies, or to have lings ready for morphing when i see his army going out of his base, or maybe just because If you start making them after he pushes out of his base it becomes too late. Thanks in advance
Your initial creep tumor is dependant on whether you want to lose 1 inject or not. This completely relies on your ability to hit injects and how well your macroing is. For example, every Zerg player will find themselves with extra larvae (meaning that you cannot just sdddd and make all 4 Drones) after first two injects or so, simply because you still do not have big enough economy to support that whilst teching up, adding lings/defenses whatnot. What I've seen IdrA and other pro-players do is if you go 14 Pool 16 Hatch (assuming you get Pylon blocked), you will get a second Queen out from your initial Hatchery and it will have 43-47 energy when your natural comes up, assuming he only Pylon blocked and that's when you get your Lings to kill the Pylon+making the Hatchery, in that case, you can put a tumor to connect your main and natural and initial creep from there on.
Or, if you do not get your second Queen that early, many pro-players first drop tumor THEN Inject (from the Queen at the natural), simply because they know they do not have the economy to support it (especially if you go for early gas, since that's 4 less Drones on Minerals).
What I'd suggest is running several games against very easy AI and see if your macro MATCHES all those injects WHILE making the initial Zerglings and everything. Some players like early upgrades, some like early Lair tech etc, it really depends on your style. If you can manage to keep Droning/Linging/Teching/Banking gas (for Mutas for example, if you like early Muta play) while maintaining good injects and spending larvae, you might as well wait for the dedicated creeper Queen. As Creep is not as essential in ZvP as it is in ZvT (by the time SG play comes to your base, you should have your bases connected anyhow). Do not get me wrong, it is still VERY good, but in ZvT (assuming Hellion harass), it is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL that you have your bases connected with creep, as you are using your Queens for defense.
On July 02 2012 19:40 habermas wrote:
In PvZ when going 15 pool, 16 hatch, what is the best way to deal with double pylon block at natural and 3rd. I normally get queen at 16 then 2 lings at 18, but if I'm denied any expo my build kind of falls apart.
There is a reason everyone goes 14 Pool, and it is specifically this one:
14 Pool
13 Drone
14 Drone
15 Drone
16 Drone (waiting for 300 Minerals)
16 Hatchery
15 Overlord
15 Queen
17 Drone/Lings
Now, if you assume you ARE going to get severely Pylon blocked, at 100 Minerals (whenever the larvae pops that is) while waiting for 300 Hatchery minerals, go 16 Overlord (that's what I do). It makes you lose SOME time if your opponent does cancel the Pylon, but you lose more time if he does not cancel the Pylon. In the "standard scenario", you would go
16 Lings
17 Queen
17 Gas trick
19/18 Queen started
19 Overlord (this means you lose a lot of Drone production time as you are supply blocked during the whole ordeal)
I'm too high on caffeine atm though.
It is also very common nowadays for the Protoss to spend additional 150 Minerals to start warping a Gateway, in that case, CONTINUE THE PRODUCTION AT YOUR MAIN AS IF YOU DROPPED THE HATCHERY (just think of it as 300 Minerals being 0 Minerals, always have 300 Minerals just so you can drop the Hatchery the moment you clear your natural). Do not slack here, he wants your build to fall apart, that's exactly what he wants.
Also, do not triple expand UNLESS YOU CONFIRM HE IS FFEing (it can be a good gamble, but against any decent Protoss, they can just switch into 1base allin after they know you did not scout them, the Warpgate timing will be a little late, but they can still win very easily unless you scout it and go panic-mode). 1-base allin can outright win it for the Protoss, if left unscouted etc
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As a side note, broodlords aren't the only option. Ling/bane/infestor/ultra is REALLY good. Ultras kill colo better than corruptors hahaha. I believe Belial has an awesome ZvP guide on ling/infestor, it's a nice alternative to lolol0roacheslolol
Thanks for the kind words, but that guide is actually not viable anymore. That guide only worked because I was Diamond, facing other Diamonds, so it worked for me when I was lower level, and secondly, the infestor had NP. Colossus and robo builds just rape the shit out of that build now.
Well pure roach will not do just fine for defense when you're dealing with a 165+ upgraded thor+hellion army.
No...
The point is to have hive tech/broodlords out when that 165+ mech deathball push comes.
Also, if you go pure roach, you are going to be maxed wheb the mech player is at like 120-140 supply at most. You are supposed to trade at 180+ supply with pure roach or even roach/infestor, so that the 165+ mech push comes much more delayed, when you have broodlords out as you started hive once your aggression started to be cost efficient. If you go roach/infestor, with mass IT spam and lots of energy banked, you should be able to handle the push as well.
This is all theorycraft so I don't think we are getting anywhere, but there are plenty of replays in my ZvT guide showing off what I am talking about. I have no doubt that roach/baneling can kill mech, but the problem is how much is delays your tech. I have an extreeeeemely high win rate against mech (id confidently say over 80%), which means fuck all i suppose in mid-masters, but what im saying is there is more than one way to play against mech.
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On July 03 2012 03:08 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +
As a side note, broodlords aren't the only option. Ling/bane/infestor/ultra is REALLY good. Ultras kill colo better than corruptors hahaha. I believe Belial has an awesome ZvP guide on ling/infestor, it's a nice alternative to lolol0roacheslolol
Thanks for the kind words, but that guide is actually not viable anymore. That guide only worked because I was Diamond, facing other Diamonds, so it worked for me when I was lower level, and secondly, the infestor had NP. Colossus and robo builds just rape the shit out of that build now.
I suppose that lings are the weakness of the build  but it is agreed on that specifically ultra/bane/infestor with lings WILL demolish a huge-ass deathball. all that splash is too much for protoss to handle.
What do you suggest as a midgame for ZvP with the idea of fast ultras? Roach/infestor with not a lot of roaches or infestors to get a quick hive?
And finally, is it "greedy" and "unsafe" to take a fourth behind mass roach/ling aggression? Once they get colo you lose.
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So I did my placements last weekend, and right now I keep running into this situation where I keep getting matched to lower and lower leagues (since I lost about 10 matches straight) and the "macro and you'll" win approach doesn't seem to work at all.
I'm getting tilted by it to much to get a clear picture of my play, best match I played in this streak is the one below
http://drop.sc/212858
I hope someone can help me out on what the heck I should be doing "better".
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Looking for ideas/suggestions to halt the 2-base Immortal All-In and how to follow up with it.
Right now I've been taking my 3 bases and following up with a fast bane bust. I don't commit to the bust but I push with it in order to bait out FF's and possibly snipe the forge while the upgrade is in progress. Meanwhile, behind it and after I throw up a ton of spines and get lair. I've been messing around getting fast roach burrow-movement, infestors, hydras.. But each time I ultimately fall.
Right now my big problem is just defending the push and I'm more or less looking for ideas as to what other people are doing.
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On July 02 2012 18:34 Asolmanx wrote:
I have a question myself about ZvP. I struggle a lot in this matchup and i feel that most of it is because my build isn't optimal and i miss some things here and there. So:
In ZvP i like to get the first gas right after my third (around 4:30 - 22-23 supply), and get fast ling speed while keeping guys in gas.
Also, When doing this fast ling speed build, If i want to go banelings with upgrades and drop tech, when should i get my other gases?
Last question: Is there any point where i should be making lings no matter what? Like to go scout around the map and look for proxies, or to have lings ready for morphing when i see his army going out of his base, or maybe just because If you start making them after he pushes out of his base it becomes too late.
Thanks in advance
Can someone answer the rest of my questions please?
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On July 03 2012 05:12 EnhancedZ wrote:
Looking for ideas/suggestions to halt the 2-base Immortal All-In and how to follow up with it.
Right now I've been taking my 3 bases and following up with a fast bane bust. I don't commit to the bust but I push with it in order to bait out FF's and possibly snipe the forge while the upgrade is in progress. Meanwhile, behind it and after I throw up a ton of spines and get lair. I've been messing around getting fast roach burrow-movement, infestors, hydras.. But each time I ultimately fall.
Right now my big problem is just defending the push and I'm more or less looking for ideas as to what other people are doing.
I wouldn't recommend the bane bust. Whether you do it all in or not that is less drones and the protosses immortal push will be that much stronger and probably not holdable due to you having a lot less drones then you should by the 8 minute mark.
If you know the 2 base immortal all in is incoming what I have been doing is making roach/ling and moving them in a hidden spot so I can go for a base trade.
Once I scout he is going all in (no third, lots of gateways and robo) I make a ton of spines at my natural. Once he pushes out I pull everything from my third to my natural and any units I make from there go to defend with a ton of spines and then protoss loses as he's in a bad spot. There are a ton of roach/ling destroying his natural and his army is at my natural with a ton of spines to where he can't bust.
I haven't lost to that immortal push since I have been doing this and it's really effective. But be warned you will get some flames saying how faggy you are to do this :D.
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On July 03 2012 05:17 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 05:12 EnhancedZ wrote:
Looking for ideas/suggestions to halt the 2-base Immortal All-In and how to follow up with it.
Right now I've been taking my 3 bases and following up with a fast bane bust. I don't commit to the bust but I push with it in order to bait out FF's and possibly snipe the forge while the upgrade is in progress. Meanwhile, behind it and after I throw up a ton of spines and get lair. I've been messing around getting fast roach burrow-movement, infestors, hydras.. But each time I ultimately fall.
Right now my big problem is just defending the push and I'm more or less looking for ideas as to what other people are doing. I wouldn't recommend the bane bust. Whether you do it all in or not that is less drones and the protosses immortal push will be that much stronger and probably not holdable due to you having a lot less drones then you should by the 8 minute mark. If you know the 2 base immortal all in is incoming what I have been doing is making roach/ling and moving them in a hidden spot so I can go for a base trade. Once I scout he is going all in (no third, lots of gateways and robo) I make a ton of spines at my natural. Once he pushes out I pull everything from my third to my natural and any units I make from there go to defend with a ton of spines and then protoss loses as he's in a bad spot. There are a ton of roach/ling destroying his natural and his army is at my natural with a ton of spines to where he can't bust. I haven't lost to that immortal push since I have been doing this and it's really effective. But be warned you will get some flames saying how faggy you are to do this :D.
Thank you for this, it's truly genius! :D at first I was like "...but you lose your third..." then I realized that toss won't have any bases LOL. Can't wait to try this on ladder 
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On July 03 2012 05:36 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 05:17 blade55555 wrote:On July 03 2012 05:12 EnhancedZ wrote:
Looking for ideas/suggestions to halt the 2-base Immortal All-In and how to follow up with it.
Right now I've been taking my 3 bases and following up with a fast bane bust. I don't commit to the bust but I push with it in order to bait out FF's and possibly snipe the forge while the upgrade is in progress. Meanwhile, behind it and after I throw up a ton of spines and get lair. I've been messing around getting fast roach burrow-movement, infestors, hydras.. But each time I ultimately fall.
Right now my big problem is just defending the push and I'm more or less looking for ideas as to what other people are doing. I wouldn't recommend the bane bust. Whether you do it all in or not that is less drones and the protosses immortal push will be that much stronger and probably not holdable due to you having a lot less drones then you should by the 8 minute mark. If you know the 2 base immortal all in is incoming what I have been doing is making roach/ling and moving them in a hidden spot so I can go for a base trade. Once I scout he is going all in (no third, lots of gateways and robo) I make a ton of spines at my natural. Once he pushes out I pull everything from my third to my natural and any units I make from there go to defend with a ton of spines and then protoss loses as he's in a bad spot. There are a ton of roach/ling destroying his natural and his army is at my natural with a ton of spines to where he can't bust. I haven't lost to that immortal push since I have been doing this and it's really effective. But be warned you will get some flames saying how faggy you are to do this :D. Thank you for this, it's truly genius! :D at first I was like "...but you lose your third..." then I realized that toss won't have any bases LOL. Can't wait to try this on ladder
Here are 2 replays show casing it to if you want them. http://www.mediafire.com/?a76h94x1f9pai22
Even though I played really bad afterwards in the game vs bonk (normally players leave when they lose their army so I played very casually you will notice bad macro, etc after I hold his push easy and destroy his natural). Show cases just how ahead you are though since he'll be on one mining base to your 2 ^^.
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On July 03 2012 05:17 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 05:12 EnhancedZ wrote:
Looking for ideas/suggestions to halt the 2-base Immortal All-In and how to follow up with it.
Right now I've been taking my 3 bases and following up with a fast bane bust. I don't commit to the bust but I push with it in order to bait out FF's and possibly snipe the forge while the upgrade is in progress. Meanwhile, behind it and after I throw up a ton of spines and get lair. I've been messing around getting fast roach burrow-movement, infestors, hydras.. But each time I ultimately fall.
Right now my big problem is just defending the push and I'm more or less looking for ideas as to what other people are doing. I wouldn't recommend the bane bust. Whether you do it all in or not that is less drones and the protosses immortal push will be that much stronger and probably not holdable due to you having a lot less drones then you should by the 8 minute mark. If you know the 2 base immortal all in is incoming what I have been doing is making roach/ling and moving them in a hidden spot so I can go for a base trade. Once I scout he is going all in (no third, lots of gateways and robo) I make a ton of spines at my natural. Once he pushes out I pull everything from my third to my natural and any units I make from there go to defend with a ton of spines and then protoss loses as he's in a bad spot. There are a ton of roach/ling destroying his natural and his army is at my natural with a ton of spines to where he can't bust. I haven't lost to that immortal push since I have been doing this and it's really effective. But be warned you will get some flames saying how faggy you are to do this :D.
Thanks for reps!
In the GSTL, the first zerg to ever beat an immortal/sentry all-in in GSL/GSTL occurred 2 days ago, when Hyun did this against Sage's immortal/sentry all-in - he did the same 'typical' defense of drone to 8:30, then roach/ling off 4 gas, but instead of fighting, he base traded.
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I have a question myself about ZvP. I struggle a lot in this matchup and i feel that most of it is because my build isn't optimal and i miss some things here and there. So:
In ZvP i like to get the first gas right after my third (around 4:30 - 22-23 supply), and get fast ling speed while keeping guys in gas.
Also, When doing this fast ling speed build, If i want to go banelings with upgrades and drop tech, when should i get my other gases?
Last question: Is there any point where i should be making lings no matter what? Like to go scout around the map and look for proxies, or to have lings ready for morphing when i see his army going out of his base, or maybe just because If you start making them after he pushes out of his base it becomes too late.
Thanks in advance
Getting gas so quickly isn't really recommended unless you REALLY know what you are doing. I'll just say very few players do that. I'd recommend you hit 70+ by 8:00 before trying to do different things like that.
You can't really go banelings with third. You *need* roaches with speed if you go fast third in zvp, or in zvz even. this is because you can't rely on spines when defending both a third and nat/main.
If you want to go banelings, you should first throw down the standard roach warren and get roach speed, but get a baneling, drop tech, after you confirm with an overseer that Toss is only making 1-5 gates, instead of 6+ gates and is all-inning. You won't survive any sort of gateway all-in if you don't get roaches.
Generally though, 2 gas started at 6:00 (so 3 gas later, or 1 gas then 2nd later, whatever), and then 3 gas when lair is started and 4 when lair is done (can shift these around a bit). You get 5 for hydras, 6 for infestor/muta. So if you go banes, you will probably need 6 gas.
You should make lings after saturating 3 base, i guess. You can bank gas for tech, but must make lings at the very least, in case toss pushes, that in conjunction with your tech (infestors or mutas), you can hold any push from a toss that 'shouldn't push like without his 3+ colossi.
Please give more description of your rep and I'll check it out. Watch the replay yourself, and tell me if you ever get supply blocked, have more than 5 idle larva, bank more than 35 energy on your queens at any time, or have more than 300 minerals at any time before 8:00. Those are game ending mistakes just in the first 8 minutes on their own. Just a single supply block before 8:00 is about a gg in lower masters even.
I suppose that lings are the weakness of the build but it is agreed on that specifically ultra/bane/infestor with lings WILL demolish a huge-ass deathball. all that splash is too much for protoss to handle.
What do you suggest as a midgame for ZvP with the idea of fast ultras? Roach/infestor with not a lot of roaches or infestors to get a quick hive?
And finally, is it "greedy" and "unsafe" to take a fourth behind mass roach/ling aggression? Once they get colo you lose.
Without the 9 range NP 'countering' colossi, 2+ Colossi just rape infinite lings, especially with sentry support, that's a big part of why it's no longer viable. That, and there's a lot of stuff Toss can do to just bypass it, such as taking a quick third and just out-macro'ing a Zerg who opened 2 base, even with 9 range NP it wasn't a good build.
The mid-game for zerg is roach/ling, of course. You need roaches to secure your third, especially against gateway pressure (skipping roaches due to scouting is something that takes a lot of understanding and greedyness to do, and assumes toss is going fast third). You can still go Ultras even with getting roaches, you just make as few roaches as possible, and start infestors, hive as soon as you know Toss is moving toward a third (your overseer sees less than 6 gates). Ideally, you just made a roach warren but didnt make a single roach because you saw Toss only made 5 gates instead of 7 for an all-in, but most likely, you made 20 and just stopped making anymore.
Check out "Ultras in ZvP - Symbol Style" thread I made, it discusses this sort of play.
You should always take a fourth against a Toss who is posturing for a third, sometimes even against a 2 base toss who you are containing and have secured map control against their opening. Obviously, you shoudn't take a fourth if they are all-inning and it's only 9:00, but you can take a fourth once either you have the army advantage again (ie you hold their all-in and have mass roach/ling) or if Toss is going toward a third. If Toss is going for colossus you are pretty safe just to get a fourth regardless since they take so long to come out. It's only 300 minerals, you should be able to easily get it once you hold Toss' opening aggression.
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On July 03 2012 06:00 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 05:36 Mavvie wrote:On July 03 2012 05:17 blade55555 wrote:On July 03 2012 05:12 EnhancedZ wrote:
Looking for ideas/suggestions to halt the 2-base Immortal All-In and how to follow up with it.
Right now I've been taking my 3 bases and following up with a fast bane bust. I don't commit to the bust but I push with it in order to bait out FF's and possibly snipe the forge while the upgrade is in progress. Meanwhile, behind it and after I throw up a ton of spines and get lair. I've been messing around getting fast roach burrow-movement, infestors, hydras.. But each time I ultimately fall.
Right now my big problem is just defending the push and I'm more or less looking for ideas as to what other people are doing. I wouldn't recommend the bane bust. Whether you do it all in or not that is less drones and the protosses immortal push will be that much stronger and probably not holdable due to you having a lot less drones then you should by the 8 minute mark. If you know the 2 base immortal all in is incoming what I have been doing is making roach/ling and moving them in a hidden spot so I can go for a base trade. Once I scout he is going all in (no third, lots of gateways and robo) I make a ton of spines at my natural. Once he pushes out I pull everything from my third to my natural and any units I make from there go to defend with a ton of spines and then protoss loses as he's in a bad spot. There are a ton of roach/ling destroying his natural and his army is at my natural with a ton of spines to where he can't bust. I haven't lost to that immortal push since I have been doing this and it's really effective. But be warned you will get some flames saying how faggy you are to do this :D. Thank you for this, it's truly genius! :D at first I was like "...but you lose your third..." then I realized that toss won't have any bases LOL. Can't wait to try this on ladder Here are 2 replays show casing it to if you want them. http://www.mediafire.com/?a76h94x1f9pai22Even though I played really bad afterwards in the game vs bonk (normally players leave when they lose their army so I played very casually you will notice bad macro, etc after I hold his push easy and destroy his natural). Show cases just how ahead you are though since he'll be on one mining base to your 2 ^^.
Some sweet reps blade! I also remember reading a thread about Nestea's fast roachless fast muta style, taking gas after third and if you scout gas at natural then you drop a spire, otherwise you go roaches.What I've noticed is that basetrading seems to be pretty effective when you have a wall of >7 spines. In the first game you went way overkill, but it worked! You could've killed an army twice that size. However, not all maps are as good for scouting as Cloud, so how do you determine that it's a sentry/immortal all-in? Is it the timing + gas count? Aka you rule out a gateway all-in, but they haven't taken a third or all their gas(?), so you know it must be robo or something cheesy I guess. Anyway, I guess you really gotta appreciate DRG's macro -- you got pylon blocked and had 50 supply at 8:00, yet those zerg gods can have 70-80 supply... my gosh xD
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On July 02 2012 15:59 eXeel wrote:
I played ZvT meching on Taldarim Altar and got harrassed a lot by packs of 12 blue flame hellions on my outer expansions.
Even when I got spine crawlers down, they just ran by. Needed only 10 seconds (and a scan) to kill all.
How do I keep these bases safe from this? Blocking with a queen and then not using that hatchery for rallying troops (since they get stuck)?
Or what? Lost 68 workers :S
So a replay would help analyze ur play a bit better if u could :D
Anyways in more general terms. Spines at ur bases should help keep hellions away, along with a solid queen count. However, once you see the terran really committing to hellions (over 4 usually i feel) you should instantly think he's going mech, and tech switch to roaches. The ideal composition against terran mech in roach infestor. Once your roaches are out and with decent creep spread, it should be pretty easy to just split ur roaches a bit and push his hellions back. From then on just keep expanding behind it, and play really greedy against the mech. Personally, just a note here but its very difficult to block hellions on tal'darim i feel because there's no ramp to make a choke between ur natural and main. But really roaches should solve ur problem pretty easily with a few spines, queens are good against 2 to 4 hellions, but they're just too slow even on creeep to face any more :/
Other alternatives to deal with ur problem u want to consider either investing in a LOT of spines, or simcity ur bases, so that the hellions cant run into ur base, like sticking two evo chambers in front of ur vespene geysers so that the hellions dont do much.
Also, just a sidenote as well while playing against mech I find it really useful to get drop tech, since mech is pretty immobile multipronged roach drops and attacks really do some srs dmg.
On July 03 2012 07:19 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 06:00 blade55555 wrote:On July 03 2012 05:36 Mavvie wrote:On July 03 2012 05:17 blade55555 wrote:On July 03 2012 05:12 EnhancedZ wrote:
Looking for ideas/suggestions to halt the 2-base Immortal All-In and how to follow up with it.
Right now I've been taking my 3 bases and following up with a fast bane bust. I don't commit to the bust but I push with it in order to bait out FF's and possibly snipe the forge while the upgrade is in progress. Meanwhile, behind it and after I throw up a ton of spines and get lair. I've been messing around getting fast roach burrow-movement, infestors, hydras.. But each time I ultimately fall.
Right now my big problem is just defending the push and I'm more or less looking for ideas as to what other people are doing. I wouldn't recommend the bane bust. Whether you do it all in or not that is less drones and the protosses immortal push will be that much stronger and probably not holdable due to you having a lot less drones then you should by the 8 minute mark. If you know the 2 base immortal all in is incoming what I have been doing is making roach/ling and moving them in a hidden spot so I can go for a base trade. Once I scout he is going all in (no third, lots of gateways and robo) I make a ton of spines at my natural. Once he pushes out I pull everything from my third to my natural and any units I make from there go to defend with a ton of spines and then protoss loses as he's in a bad spot. There are a ton of roach/ling destroying his natural and his army is at my natural with a ton of spines to where he can't bust. I haven't lost to that immortal push since I have been doing this and it's really effective. But be warned you will get some flames saying how faggy you are to do this :D. Thank you for this, it's truly genius! :D at first I was like "...but you lose your third..." then I realized that toss won't have any bases LOL. Can't wait to try this on ladder Here are 2 replays show casing it to if you want them. http://www.mediafire.com/?a76h94x1f9pai22Even though I played really bad afterwards in the game vs bonk (normally players leave when they lose their army so I played very casually you will notice bad macro, etc after I hold his push easy and destroy his natural). Show cases just how ahead you are though since he'll be on one mining base to your 2 ^^. Some sweet reps blade! I also remember reading a thread about Nestea's fast roachless fast muta style, taking gas after third and if you scout gas at natural then you drop a spire, otherwise you go roaches.What I've noticed is that basetrading seems to be pretty effective when you have a wall of >7 spines. In the first game you went way overkill, but it worked! You could've killed an army twice that size. However, not all maps are as good for scouting as Cloud, so how do you determine that it's a sentry/immortal all-in? Is it the timing + gas count? Aka you rule out a gateway all-in, but they haven't taken a third or all their gas(?), so you know it must be robo or something cheesy I guess. Anyway, I guess you really gotta appreciate DRG's macro -- you got pylon blocked and had 50 supply at 8:00, yet those zerg gods can have 70-80 supply... my gosh xD
^yeah blade, how exactly how would u scout out an immo sentry all-in, like what timing for a third is natural for a toss? o.o
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
The only way you can actually scout that is to constantly poke/ovie sack twice, or Overseer turbo boost over the base (first to confirm that there are no DT/SG/7gate shenanigans, second to confirm he is doing this and that).
If you see 5-6+ Sentries (but not a lot of Zealots/Stalkers), it is most likely Immortal/Sentry allin, if you see 3+ Immortals, it is definitely Immortal/Sentry allin. Remember, Sentries are 50m-100g, so if they invest in 6+ Sentries, that is a lot of Gas, you need to prepare for the hit then, as every Toss will warp in Sentries earlier on to get max energy.
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On July 03 2012 10:43 ysnake wrote:
The only way you can actually scout that is to constantly poke/ovie sack twice, or Overseer turbo boost over the base (first to confirm that there are no DT/SG/7gate shenanigans, second to confirm he is doing this and that).
If you see 5-6+ Sentries (but not a lot of Zealots/Stalkers), it is most likely Immortal/Sentry allin, if you see 3+ Immortals, it is definitely Immortal/Sentry allin. Remember, Sentries are 50m-100g, so if they invest in 6+ Sentries, that is a lot of Gas, you need to prepare for the hit then, as every Toss will warp in Sentries earlier on to get max energy.
Disagree, I thought that the most powerful immortal/sentry all-in out there involves 7 gates, 2 immortals, a prism, +1/+1, and a buttload of stalkers... I can't say because this is very low league stuff, but the ONE time I was faced against this I managed to intercept ~5 sentries with speedlings right after he left his base. However, I figure that this is because he's just really, really bad.
I believe a "fast" third is any time before 10:00, typically before 9:00. However, my friend has a powerful 2gate +1 timing into fast third where +1 and 7 zealots are done at 6:30, and you expand at 6:45. Protoss builds vary almost as much as zerg
Here's another ZvT question:
How do you deal with aggressive 2base terrans? I typically make very few lings early-midgame because without speed they get torn up by marines, and with speed they still get torn up by marine/hellion. I played against a guy and he poked around with his first 3 marines (killed 2 overlords, 1 of which was outside his base), and then poked again with 6 and tried to bunker rush my third. I feel like I can't take down those marines without investing so much larvae into lings, and queens can't defend a third reliably. I then proceeded to lose the game with a failed roach/bane bust because he had hellion/marauder, which is an insane composition to beat on its own.
Diamond terran vs gold zerg = unhappy zerg
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On July 03 2012 07:19 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 06:00 blade55555 wrote:On July 03 2012 05:36 Mavvie wrote:On July 03 2012 05:17 blade55555 wrote:On July 03 2012 05:12 EnhancedZ wrote:
Looking for ideas/suggestions to halt the 2-base Immortal All-In and how to follow up with it.
Right now I've been taking my 3 bases and following up with a fast bane bust. I don't commit to the bust but I push with it in order to bait out FF's and possibly snipe the forge while the upgrade is in progress. Meanwhile, behind it and after I throw up a ton of spines and get lair. I've been messing around getting fast roach burrow-movement, infestors, hydras.. But each time I ultimately fall.
Right now my big problem is just defending the push and I'm more or less looking for ideas as to what other people are doing. I wouldn't recommend the bane bust. Whether you do it all in or not that is less drones and the protosses immortal push will be that much stronger and probably not holdable due to you having a lot less drones then you should by the 8 minute mark. If you know the 2 base immortal all in is incoming what I have been doing is making roach/ling and moving them in a hidden spot so I can go for a base trade. Once I scout he is going all in (no third, lots of gateways and robo) I make a ton of spines at my natural. Once he pushes out I pull everything from my third to my natural and any units I make from there go to defend with a ton of spines and then protoss loses as he's in a bad spot. There are a ton of roach/ling destroying his natural and his army is at my natural with a ton of spines to where he can't bust. I haven't lost to that immortal push since I have been doing this and it's really effective. But be warned you will get some flames saying how faggy you are to do this :D. Thank you for this, it's truly genius! :D at first I was like "...but you lose your third..." then I realized that toss won't have any bases LOL. Can't wait to try this on ladder Here are 2 replays show casing it to if you want them. http://www.mediafire.com/?a76h94x1f9pai22Even though I played really bad afterwards in the game vs bonk (normally players leave when they lose their army so I played very casually you will notice bad macro, etc after I hold his push easy and destroy his natural). Show cases just how ahead you are though since he'll be on one mining base to your 2 ^^. Some sweet reps blade! I also remember reading a thread about Nestea's fast roachless fast muta style, taking gas after third and if you scout gas at natural then you drop a spire, otherwise you go roaches.What I've noticed is that basetrading seems to be pretty effective when you have a wall of >7 spines. In the first game you went way overkill, but it worked! You could've killed an army twice that size. However, not all maps are as good for scouting as Cloud, so how do you determine that it's a sentry/immortal all-in? Is it the timing + gas count? Aka you rule out a gateway all-in, but they haven't taken a third or all their gas(?), so you know it must be robo or something cheesy I guess. Anyway, I guess you really gotta appreciate DRG's macro -- you got pylon blocked and had 50 supply at 8:00, yet those zerg gods can have 70-80 supply... my gosh xD
The way to scout an immortal all in is after scouting with a slow overlord at the normal time and you see a robo then once you get lair you get an overseer and you look at his gateway count. If he has a lot of gateways (or even 1 or so immortals and hasn't even started his third) then you should expect an immortal all in. If he doesn't he's doing a very bad fast third and to be honest you can just cancel the spines as there is a chance he might have made an observer first, seen you start a ton of spines and change his mind (so far whenever I face that immortal all in they never make an observer it seems >>).
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On July 03 2012 11:01 Mavvie wrote:Here's another ZvT question: How do you deal with aggressive 2base terrans? I typically make very few lings early-midgame because without speed they get torn up by marines, and with speed they still get torn up by marine/hellion. I played against a guy and he poked around with his first 3 marines (killed 2 overlords, 1 of which was outside his base), and then poked again with 6 and tried to bunker rush my third. I feel like I can't take down those marines without investing so much larvae into lings, and queens can't defend a third reliably. I then proceeded to lose the game with a failed roach/bane bust because he had hellion/marauder, which is an insane composition to beat on its own. Diamond terran vs gold zerg = unhappy zerg
Lings do fine against marines, at least at equal cost in the open. Add creep or ling speed and lings start doing quite well, at least at the lower numbers you're talking about (3 marines? 6?). If you keep having trouble because you take late gas, try learning to counter-stutter. It's like a rhythm game, find the stutter pattern and mirror it with your lings. July demonstrated this way back when he was trying to break into sc2, and I still find it to work very well against 2rax and other low unit no-ling-speed situations.
I'd suggest you post a replay though, because losing two overlords when he has just three marines means you're quite behind, even if it didn't supply block you. And the fact that your third is already down when he has six or so marines means that you took a super greedy third and he's just punishing you as might be expected.
I feel that hellion marauder dies to roach ling on creep (I will drag out replays if necessary to support this, but usually it's just an issue of either scouting or macro that causes you to die). I prefer to lead with roaches and target down one type of unit--unsupported, either one dies to its counter (in case it's not clear: hellions die to roach, marauders die to lings). Choosing which to target can be influenced by either having lost queens (roaches are more larvae-efficient) or map (open natural and large distances? lings work well on counterattack, kill hellions and reinforce with lings).
None of these answers are that comprehensive so let me know where I can shore them up. Oh and provide that replay if you don't mind, I really can't pin down what the issue might be without it.
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EPT
