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On July 03 2012 11:03 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 07:19 Mavvie wrote:On July 03 2012 06:00 blade55555 wrote:On July 03 2012 05:36 Mavvie wrote:On July 03 2012 05:17 blade55555 wrote:On July 03 2012 05:12 EnhancedZ wrote:
Looking for ideas/suggestions to halt the 2-base Immortal All-In and how to follow up with it.
Right now I've been taking my 3 bases and following up with a fast bane bust. I don't commit to the bust but I push with it in order to bait out FF's and possibly snipe the forge while the upgrade is in progress. Meanwhile, behind it and after I throw up a ton of spines and get lair. I've been messing around getting fast roach burrow-movement, infestors, hydras.. But each time I ultimately fall.
Right now my big problem is just defending the push and I'm more or less looking for ideas as to what other people are doing. I wouldn't recommend the bane bust. Whether you do it all in or not that is less drones and the protosses immortal push will be that much stronger and probably not holdable due to you having a lot less drones then you should by the 8 minute mark. If you know the 2 base immortal all in is incoming what I have been doing is making roach/ling and moving them in a hidden spot so I can go for a base trade. Once I scout he is going all in (no third, lots of gateways and robo) I make a ton of spines at my natural. Once he pushes out I pull everything from my third to my natural and any units I make from there go to defend with a ton of spines and then protoss loses as he's in a bad spot. There are a ton of roach/ling destroying his natural and his army is at my natural with a ton of spines to where he can't bust. I haven't lost to that immortal push since I have been doing this and it's really effective. But be warned you will get some flames saying how faggy you are to do this :D. Thank you for this, it's truly genius! :D at first I was like "...but you lose your third..." then I realized that toss won't have any bases LOL. Can't wait to try this on ladder  Here are 2 replays show casing it to if you want them. http://www.mediafire.com/?a76h94x1f9pai22Even though I played really bad afterwards in the game vs bonk (normally players leave when they lose their army so I played very casually you will notice bad macro, etc after I hold his push easy and destroy his natural). Show cases just how ahead you are though since he'll be on one mining base to your 2 ^^. Some sweet reps blade! I also remember reading a thread about Nestea's fast roachless fast muta style, taking gas after third and if you scout gas at natural then you drop a spire, otherwise you go roaches.What I've noticed is that basetrading seems to be pretty effective when you have a wall of >7 spines. In the first game you went way overkill, but it worked!  You could've killed an army twice that size. However, not all maps are as good for scouting as Cloud, so how do you determine that it's a sentry/immortal all-in? Is it the timing + gas count? Aka you rule out a gateway all-in, but they haven't taken a third or all their gas(?), so you know it must be robo or something cheesy I guess. Anyway, I guess you really gotta appreciate DRG's macro -- you got pylon blocked and had 50 supply at 8:00, yet those zerg gods can have 70-80 supply... my gosh xD The way to scout an immortal all in is after scouting with a slow overlord at the normal time and you see a robo then once you get lair you get an overseer and you look at his gateway count. If he has a lot of gateways (or even 1 or so immortals and hasn't even started his third) then you should expect an immortal all in. If he doesn't he's doing a very bad fast third and to be honest you can just cancel the spines as there is a chance he might have made an observer first, seen you start a ton of spines and change his mind (so far whenever I face that immortal all in they never make an observer it seems >>).
why are ur posts blue???
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On July 03 2012 11:01 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 10:43 ysnake wrote:
The only way you can actually scout that is to constantly poke/ovie sack twice, or Overseer turbo boost over the base (first to confirm that there are no DT/SG/7gate shenanigans, second to confirm he is doing this and that).
If you see 5-6+ Sentries (but not a lot of Zealots/Stalkers), it is most likely Immortal/Sentry allin, if you see 3+ Immortals, it is definitely Immortal/Sentry allin. Remember, Sentries are 50m-100g, so if they invest in 6+ Sentries, that is a lot of Gas, you need to prepare for the hit then, as every Toss will warp in Sentries earlier on to get max energy. Disagree, I thought that the most powerful immortal/sentry all-in out there involves 7 gates, 2 immortals, a prism, +1/+1, and a buttload of stalkers... I can't say because this is very low league stuff, but the ONE time I was faced against this I managed to intercept ~5 sentries with speedlings right after he left his base. However, I figure that this is because he's just really, really bad.
In that case, the timing attack comes much much later, and the Zerg player can have a maxed out army at that point, and if baits the Force Fields nicely while trading efficiently, he is going to overwhelm the Protoss player as the Protoss player does not want to invest in Sentries ever again as they are very costly, and Protoss needs all the gas in the mid-game they can get.
I was talking about an early Immortal/Sentry push, not a 150+ push.
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^yeah blade, how exactly how would u scout out an immo sentry all-in, like what timing for a third is natural for a toss? o.o
When your lair finishes, you should have the 3rd overlord you have near Toss' base, turned into an overseer, to see if Toss has 1-5 gates, or 6+ gates. That's the only way to tell the difference from an immo/sentry all-in to expand.
Also, an immortal/sentry all-in pushes out around 9:30, at least. So if you haven't seen them push out by 10:00, it means they aren't doing an immortal/sentry all-in. Usually, you can tell because they start posturing for their third, if not take it, by 9:00, while they start posturing to push out by 9:15.
Here's another ZvT question:
How do you deal with aggressive 2base terrans? I typically make very few lings early-midgame because without speed they get torn up by marines, and with speed they still get torn up by marine/hellion. I played against a guy and he poked around with his first 3 marines (killed 2 overlords, 1 of which was outside his base), and then poked again with 6 and tried to bunker rush my third. I feel like I can't take down those marines without investing so much larvae into lings, and queens can't defend a third reliably. I then proceeded to lose the game with a failed roach/bane bust because he had hellion/marauder, which is an insane composition to beat on its own.
Queens and speedlings?
If you read my ZvT guide, linked in my profile, I talk about this.
But basically, you should be sac'cing an overlord at ~40 to see what Terran's follow-up is to his expansion (ie lack of buildings but double gas = banshees, especially if went reactor hellion, tech lab on factory = macro, passive play into siege tanks, double fact = mass hellions, more than 2 rax = check for stim timing, marauders = definite attack coming).
You are always safe to take a third against a terran who expanded (you should see expo by 30 supply, if not immediately when he makes it, and if you aren't sure but no expo on low ground with overlord by natural, assume he didn';t expand, even if he did, he isnt mining from it so you are way ahead economically). You are not, however, safe to drone up your third, so you need to make sure terran isn't doing a stim timing before droning up your third.
You should have had an overlord by your third to make sure he wasn't bunkering it. That's the only reliable way to stop that...
Losing 2 overlords at the start is pretty game-ending. take safer routes, that 2nd overlord doesnt need to be by his main immediately, just by 40 supply. On many maps, like ohana and daybreak, you can even go behind their natural safely enough to just sac that, once it's clearly already confirmed he expanded.
If you aren't a pro though, i recommend getting a single gas for speed around 30-35 supply, until you are really pro. And banelings around 50 supply to stop stim pushes.
You can drone up your 2 bases, and take your third, against a terran who expanded, just check for stim timings or banshees or double fact before droning up the third.
why are ur posts blue???
Because he's smarter than any mere mortal like you or I.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
Recently, I have been problems against Terran, to me, it seems that they have found a way to finally fight the gglord composition, and that is, to never come in the range of Brood Lords except for Vikings.
How I die is that I simply get chopped to death by drops, even with Spine Crawlers at my bases, they just load 2 Medivacs with some Marauders and rip through my expansions. If I do decide to engage, I end up losing to mass Vikings.
This looks like a QQ post, but it is not. I, personally, hate to use Brood Lords, but quite frankly, Zerg does not have any good fighting T2 or T3 unit for that matter other than Brood Lords (Ultras are just generally bad).
Here is a game where I've made a lot of mistakes (not spining my expansions and general bad unit control, this was 15th or 20th game in a row): http://drop.sc/213911
As far as I can remember:
- some minor slips in macro department in the early game
- not being greedy enough
- missing injects toward the end of the game
- bad Brood Lord control when engaging his third expansion
- I just got pissed off at a-moved my Brood Lords and Corruptors toward his right-corner base, wanted to tech switch to Ultras
- never made Spines
Also, another question, how can one play an aggressive Zerg in the current meta-game? As even pro-Zergs just wait until the opponent moves out then tries to engage. Quite frankly, in the Diamond league, they do not move out unless they are maxed, or at least close to. Thanks in advance and apologies if this sounds like a QQ post.
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Okay well I feel silly. I'm off-racing as Zerg and I'm trying out this backspace larvae inject method. I used to individually hotkey all my hatcheries, but it's become difficult in the lategame when I have to inject 4+ bases during a battle. The problem I'm having is whenever I backspace it sometimes doesn't go to each hatchery, but instead the units that were completed. Are my hotkeys not binded right or something?
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Is it possible to hold off a 4 gate off a 3 base opening against Toss? If you see the Toss going Gate/Cybercore on their ramp, what is the best response?
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On July 03 2012 23:12 raybasto wrote:
Is it possible to hold off a 4 gate off a 3 base opening against Toss? If you see the Toss going Gate/Cybercore on their ramp, what is the best response?
well considering a well timed 4 gate hit around the 6th min mark (usually 5:45) well if you went for a 3rd @ the 4 min mark, you are pretty much screwed because you only have lings and maybe spines if he takes his time to hold the push, since you delayed gaz and tech so much. If you somehow hold the push you might end up losing your at and your 3rd, at which pointi'd say toss is ahead because he can expand and turtle behind ii. When i face anything other than FFE (barring 2 gate) i go 14 pool 16 hatch 15 gaz and wait until i actually see the nexus go down and complete to grab my 3rd but that's just me. That way i get speed in time to scout for early agression and/or 1 base play.
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On July 03 2012 23:04 Sovano wrote:
Okay well I feel silly. I'm off-racing as Zerg and I'm trying out this backspace larvae inject method. I used to individually hotkey all my hatcheries, but it's become difficult in the lategame when I have to inject 4+ bases during a battle. The problem I'm having is whenever I backspace it sometimes doesn't go to each hatchery, but instead the units that were completed. Are my hotkeys not binded right or something?
sounds to me that you hit space and not backspace. what i did is i rebinded the backspace action (i think it's named base cycle) to left ALT. i have all my injects queen on a hotkey (usually 6) and go 6,v ALT click. You can get better and go 6,v,HOLD SHIFT, alt + click. if you keep hitting alt and not doind anything between the alts you will cycle through your bases just fine.
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On July 03 2012 23:04 Sovano wrote:
Okay well I feel silly. I'm off-racing as Zerg and I'm trying out this backspace larvae inject method. I used to individually hotkey all my hatcheries, but it's become difficult in the lategame when I have to inject 4+ bases during a battle. The problem I'm having is whenever I backspace it sometimes doesn't go to each hatchery, but instead the units that were completed. Are my hotkeys not binded right or something?
It sounds like you've binded your backspace to the most recent alerts button (default spacebar) instead of the base camera hotkey.
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On July 03 2012 23:22 Exoteric wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 23:04 Sovano wrote:
Okay well I feel silly. I'm off-racing as Zerg and I'm trying out this backspace larvae inject method. I used to individually hotkey all my hatcheries, but it's become difficult in the lategame when I have to inject 4+ bases during a battle. The problem I'm having is whenever I backspace it sometimes doesn't go to each hatchery, but instead the units that were completed. Are my hotkeys not binded right or something? It sounds like you've binded your backspace to the most recent alerts button (default spacebar) instead of the base camera hotkey.
Man I'm feeling dumb today. I didn't mean backspace, I'm using spacebar to try and cycle through my hatcheries. Although I checked my hotkeys that my settings are on and my base camera hotkey is spacebar. I can't use the backspace because "v" and "backspace" are too far apart, I have to use my pink to press "v" and my index to press "backspace".
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I'm seeing some z's playing 4 queen style gasless in zvz... Does this actually work? So far I've just made lings out of my first inject pop and killed them... But I imagine it boosts your eco. Anyone familiar with this style?
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If I'm going late lair in ZvT with the intention of getting infestors then going fast hive, how do I deal with bio aggression that comes before I get infestors or baneling speed? I've been seeing pros get their lair around 8:30 when going for infestors/quick hive, but I haven't seen how they deal with a marine/tank push that shows up before they can get baneling speed or infestors out, perhaps because it's not a prevalent strategy at the higher levels. However, down here in platinum I'm getting dominated and am unsure what to do other than simply get lair earlier, which is obviously not ideal as preparation for playing better opponents.
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On July 03 2012 23:42 Sovano wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 23:22 Exoteric wrote:On July 03 2012 23:04 Sovano wrote:
Okay well I feel silly. I'm off-racing as Zerg and I'm trying out this backspace larvae inject method. I used to individually hotkey all my hatcheries, but it's become difficult in the lategame when I have to inject 4+ bases during a battle. The problem I'm having is whenever I backspace it sometimes doesn't go to each hatchery, but instead the units that were completed. Are my hotkeys not binded right or something? It sounds like you've binded your backspace to the most recent alerts button (default spacebar) instead of the base camera hotkey. Man I'm feeling dumb today. I didn't mean backspace, I'm using spacebar to try and cycle through my hatcheries. Although I checked my hotkeys that my settings are on and my base camera hotkey is spacebar. I can't use the backspace because "v" and "backspace" are too far apart, I have to use my pink to press "v" and my index to press "backspace".
In that case, are you sure that the only thing bound to spacebar is the base camera hotkey?
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On July 04 2012 00:57 Exoteric wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 23:42 Sovano wrote:On July 03 2012 23:22 Exoteric wrote:On July 03 2012 23:04 Sovano wrote:
Okay well I feel silly. I'm off-racing as Zerg and I'm trying out this backspace larvae inject method. I used to individually hotkey all my hatcheries, but it's become difficult in the lategame when I have to inject 4+ bases during a battle. The problem I'm having is whenever I backspace it sometimes doesn't go to each hatchery, but instead the units that were completed. Are my hotkeys not binded right or something? It sounds like you've binded your backspace to the most recent alerts button (default spacebar) instead of the base camera hotkey. Man I'm feeling dumb today. I didn't mean backspace, I'm using spacebar to try and cycle through my hatcheries. Although I checked my hotkeys that my settings are on and my base camera hotkey is spacebar. I can't use the backspace because "v" and "backspace" are too far apart, I have to use my pink to press "v" and my index to press "backspace". In that case, are you sure that the only thing bound to spacebar is the base camera hotkey?
Yeah I'm sure of it. I guess I'll just stick to my regular method.
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On July 04 2012 00:58 Sovano wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 00:57 Exoteric wrote:On July 03 2012 23:42 Sovano wrote:On July 03 2012 23:22 Exoteric wrote:On July 03 2012 23:04 Sovano wrote:
Okay well I feel silly. I'm off-racing as Zerg and I'm trying out this backspace larvae inject method. I used to individually hotkey all my hatcheries, but it's become difficult in the lategame when I have to inject 4+ bases during a battle. The problem I'm having is whenever I backspace it sometimes doesn't go to each hatchery, but instead the units that were completed. Are my hotkeys not binded right or something? It sounds like you've binded your backspace to the most recent alerts button (default spacebar) instead of the base camera hotkey. Man I'm feeling dumb today. I didn't mean backspace, I'm using spacebar to try and cycle through my hatcheries. Although I checked my hotkeys that my settings are on and my base camera hotkey is spacebar. I can't use the backspace because "v" and "backspace" are too far apart, I have to use my pink to press "v" and my index to press "backspace". In that case, are you sure that the only thing bound to spacebar is the base camera hotkey? Yeah I'm sure of it. I guess I'll just stick to my regular method.
Just to clarify, under the "Unit Management" hotkey tab, the 'jump to last alert' option is bound to something else?
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On July 04 2012 01:01 Exoteric wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 00:58 Sovano wrote:On July 04 2012 00:57 Exoteric wrote:On July 03 2012 23:42 Sovano wrote:On July 03 2012 23:22 Exoteric wrote:On July 03 2012 23:04 Sovano wrote:
Okay well I feel silly. I'm off-racing as Zerg and I'm trying out this backspace larvae inject method. I used to individually hotkey all my hatcheries, but it's become difficult in the lategame when I have to inject 4+ bases during a battle. The problem I'm having is whenever I backspace it sometimes doesn't go to each hatchery, but instead the units that were completed. Are my hotkeys not binded right or something? It sounds like you've binded your backspace to the most recent alerts button (default spacebar) instead of the base camera hotkey. Man I'm feeling dumb today. I didn't mean backspace, I'm using spacebar to try and cycle through my hatcheries. Although I checked my hotkeys that my settings are on and my base camera hotkey is spacebar. I can't use the backspace because "v" and "backspace" are too far apart, I have to use my pink to press "v" and my index to press "backspace". In that case, are you sure that the only thing bound to spacebar is the base camera hotkey? Yeah I'm sure of it. I guess I'll just stick to my regular method. Just to clarify, under the "Unit Management" hotkey tab, the 'jump to last alert' option is bound to something else?
Oh crap. I didn't notice that lol. Yes apparently jump to last alert was bound to spacebar, I'll change that now. Thanks for the help! :D
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On July 04 2012 00:00 Clarity_nl wrote:
I'm seeing some z's playing 4 queen style gasless in zvz... Does this actually work? So far I've just made lings out of my first inject pop and killed them... But I imagine it boosts your eco. Anyone familiar with this style?
Hmm...4 Queen style off 2 base I'm guessing, if that was off one-base I'd be wary of cheese. I consider Gas to be the most precious resource in ZvZ...2-Base...depends how long he/she goes without Gas but that just makes him/her more and more susceptible to timings. Speedlings, Banes, Roach.
I personally would never play Gasless, for any extended period of time. There is about no pressure you could possibly be under until the gas starts getting into play..so if he wants to be greedy you can outgreed!
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I'm seeing some z's playing 4 queen style gasless in zvz... Does this actually work? So far I've just made lings out of my first inject pop and killed them... But I imagine it boosts your eco. Anyone familiar with this style?
its okay if you are going 2 base lair style. just take a free third against it. It's an extremely defensive style that opts for as many drones as possible on 2 base, so when you see they don't have gas, you know they won't have any speed or banelings, so just respond by delaying your own speed and banelings and single spine as much as possible, and be greedy as fuck, like third before baneling nest.
Is it possible to hold off a 4 gate off a 3 base opening against Toss? If you see the Toss going Gate/Cybercore on their ramp, what is the best response?
no. you dont have to wait until their nexus is complete to take a third, since you can always cancel your third like they cancel their nexus.
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I'm seeing some z's playing 4 queen style gasless in zvz... Does this actually work? So far I've just made lings out of my first inject pop and killed them... But I imagine it boosts your eco. Anyone familiar with this style?
I commonly do this and go 2 base muta with some speedling pressure with the inital mutas while I take a 3rd.
They shouldn't really die to pure ling attacks, as they will have 2 spines and 4 queens with 1 or 2 transfuses. If you want to kill them the best way to do it is to do a late baneling attack with a lot of banelings (as in like 15), since they don't have a baneling nest of their own they can't prevent your banelings from getting right up in their natural. You can kill all the spines and use the banes to deny lings from engaging. Although with good building, queen, and spine positioning they could hold. I would only recommend doing this sort of attack on some maps where the ramp is far away from the mineral line in the natural and the natural is wide-ish open. Entombed Valley, Atlantis Spaceship and a few others are like this. Maps like Ohana where the natural is very tight are far easier to defend on.
If you want to play a longer game against the style take a fast 3rd as belial said and get a shitton of drones - don't bother making any spines. You want to get a fast-ish lair and try to see what he is doing with his lair tech with an overseer. There are many things you can do off of this opening, muta, ling infestor, speed roach timings etc. So you want to look for #1 a spire or infestation pit and #2 try to see if he is massing roaches, lings, or neither. You might need to make more than 1 overseer because 4 queens can kill a single overseer quite fast.
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EPT
