The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 302
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WarBobz
68 Posts
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GuardianEU
Netherlands488 Posts
I've very recently came back to sc2 and the metagame's all wierd now 0.o I used to be a very harassment focussed player, my favorite units were the mutalisk and the speedling for that same reason. Most of my games were e harassing until I put the opponent all in, then stopping the attack. but when I started playing and watching mroe sc2 I've not seen mutalisks much at all. Are there any good harassment-based (with or without mutalisks) game plans for zerg in all the matchups? Could you maybe give me some strategy ideas or builds to help me get started with the harassment styles again? | ||
ysnake
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
Mutalisks are still primarily the best way to harass, but it is all situational, if the player overreacts with the turrets, you cannot harass them efficiently, most of the times they don't, but it all depends what your opponent is doing. Nowadays, you'll probably spend most of your larvae and resources fighting off the allin from Protoss or the constant attacks from the Terran (the most usual scenario). Baneling drops can be efficient as well, but require quite a decent investment (300/300 just to be able to drop). Overall, Mutalisks are still the way to go if you want to harass and you pin the Terran or Protoss in their base, so you can freely expand or tech up. | ||
triggey
10 Posts
I kept the terran on 3 base the entire game (it was a 30 min game) but i still lost... this was on ladder plat vs masters for some reason.... (ignore what i said at the end of the game i was just raging/venting) http://drop.sc/209839 | ||
Hulkoff
Sweden51 Posts
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Macpo
453 Posts
On July 01 2012 01:36 Hulkoff wrote: I've always wondered how to respond to a 3 pylon block on my ramp, but since it rarely happens I've never had the oppurtunity to practice it. So my question is: What is the, or one of the most effective ways, of handling the 3 pylon block with cannon? hello hulk ![]() Two ways to deal with that: 1. preventive: take a drone and make it follow the probe. 2. when you see it happen, take drones and make some drone drilling tactic. This is micro intensive, and require some training, but basically the idea is: take your drones, right click on mineral patches at your nat or third, so that they all gather in front of the pylons to attack, then tell them to attack the pylon. and repeat as much as necessary (part of the trick implies to click back on the mineral very quickly after you attacked the pylon). depending on how quickly you react, you may need from 8 to 12 or even more drones... to train, offrace vs AI as a protoss, build your own pylon block, and try to kill it with probes, doing it with drones is not really different. | ||
Servius_Fulvius
United States947 Posts
On June 30 2012 19:33 GuardianEU wrote: Hello, I've very recently came back to sc2 and the metagame's all wierd now 0.o I used to be a very harassment focussed player, my favorite units were the mutalisk and the speedling for that same reason. Most of my games were e harassing until I put the opponent all in, then stopping the attack. but when I started playing and watching mroe sc2 I've not seen mutalisks much at all. Are there any good harassment-based (with or without mutalisks) game plans for zerg in all the matchups? Could you maybe give me some strategy ideas or builds to help me get started with the harassment styles again? Harassment is good, but it needs to have a purpose. Most times you make an investment to force a reaction and while your opponent reacts you're building drones, taking bases, teching, etc. What you are describing is "harassing someone to death". This happened to me ALL the time in BW in ZvP where I would get all my overlords killed by a gaggle of corsairs, get storm dropped and lose half my drones, and finally die to the big attack 7 minutes later. The problem with this kind of play is what happens when the harassment is held. This puts you behind. If you're making 10 mutas that do nothing then you're REALLY behind if your late game plan is something like infestor/BL. The better the opponent the better they are at holding a harass. Muta harass has been around for a long time, so the other races have had lots of practice in cost-effective defense. You're not seeing mutalisks for two reasons: pro's are extremely efficient at dealing with mutas in all matchups and the metagame trend for zerg (for quite a while now) is to take it to the super late game. That's not to say there are no good harassment-based game plans. You can effectively use them in each matchup. Better players are just better at dealing with them. Drop-based builds have been thrown around a lot in the last few months, so why not give that type of harass a try? If you'd like a rough example, consider banshee harass in ZvT. In September 2010 a 1base/2port banshee harass outright killed pro players and silver-leaguers alike. Nowadays a terran is not even guaranteed a couple drone kills with a few cloaked banshees because zerg became better at dealing with it. On July 01 2012 01:36 Hulkoff wrote: I've always wondered how to respond to a 3 pylon block on my ramp, but since it rarely happens I've never had the oppurtunity to practice it. So my question is: What is the, or one of the most effective ways, of handling the 3 pylon block with cannon? a). patrol the ramp with a drone b). use the drone stack trick. However, this does not work in all map positions (top right on Daybreak, for instance) c). leave the game. If the pylons go down and you can't destroy them it's pretty much an instant loss to a competant toss. If they want your ladder points so bad just let them have it and move on. If you're aware of the map positions vulnerable to the block (stack trick doesn't work) then you can remain mindful to the possibility. | ||
Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
1) How many queens do you get ZvP vs a FFE? I follow Stephano-style pretty tight, and with no extra queens it's really hard to spread creep. However, I feel that I can afford a few more...how many do you recommend? 2) Lategame ZvP, I tend to max quickly on roaches and trade fairly often, but I will still float ~7k minerals with only ~2k gas or so. How do you guys spend all these minerals? Whenever I make spinecrawler walls, I feel that I lose so much mining time that it just can't be a good thing. 3) In a ZvT, I like to do a hatch-pool-gas opener, into 2 queens -> 5:30 third -> 2-4 more queens (total of 4-6). However, I never feel safe unless I do a roach/ling/bane semi-all-in (Tang's guide, for example). What should I do to feel safe? Infestors come out too late, banelings require lings (which aren't drones), and spines + queens can only do so much. I typically go double evo after the queens. 4) ZvZ, hydras or infestors? Or both? Hydras feel stupid considering they lose 1v1 to a roach, and infestors are SO good if they have energy. So as a general rule, what is a good roach:hydra:infestor ratio? Thanks in advance! Edit: I apologize if any of these questions have been asked before. There are 300 pages of this thread and I don't believe that there's a simple way to search all pages. | ||
eXeel
Denmark62 Posts
Whats the better build vs terran? 4 queen + 2 gas or 6 queen +third hatch + 3 gas? All have their weaknesses, but I wouldn't say the build is x queen x gas. The more gas you take, the less minerals you have, so if you spend it on more queens, it's less drones or a later third. It's more a matter of "how many queens you like to make" and "how many and when you take your gas". Also, a lot of this mass queen stuff is a reaction to 1 rax FE or CC first, if terran goes a gas opening, I dont think you will see a gasless opening anymore. I personally like to go 5 queen (5 queen means 3 queens for 3 bases, 1 for macro hatch, 1 to spread creep), and get gas around 30 (against gas opening I take it around 23, so i take it after 26 overlord has popped and I've made a few drones to justify taking it after overlord instead of before it). I then take a 2nd gas around 50, as all builds generally have 2 gas by around 50 supply. Staple right now against 1 rax fe seems to be 4+ queens, with 2+ gas by 55, and a third at 40-50, with differing gas, queen, third, and macro hatch timing based on preference. It is not vs P, but maybe the idea is the same. It sounds general. That queens depend on how much gas (and hatcheries) you have. | ||
501TFX
Austria345 Posts
I feel like I forget more, than I'm learning while I'm laddering, and I'm not understanding so many things, it's depressing... How do you actually get over 70 supply vs P at 8:00 on 3 Hatch, while you're natural got pylon blocked and maybe the third too? I see Pro's get all the time up to 80, and I just don't get how, I don't see what they do better / different than me .. How do you stop 2 base Immortal Sentry All Ins? Ho do I scout a Zerg correctly, so I don't die to an all in or a big roach attack. What's actually a good opening? (I always feel hardcountered on my openings, me 15 Hatch he 6 Pool, me 14/14 he 15 Hatch, me 6 Pool he 14/14 .. da fuck? 7 out of 10 games it's this case, I'm serioulsy getting crazy) These are my biggest problems, but I'm feeling there is so much more. Why the hell am I playing suddenly that bad? It's not just "a bad day", it feels like I'm just getting worse per day, and I didn't even play with a bad mindset until today .. gaah. I am a mid master player btw. .. or well .. used to be, I lost to so many diamond players today ... Sorry, if this post sounds whiny, but I'm REALLY desperated, after today. | ||
kranten
Netherlands236 Posts
On July 01 2012 05:03 Mavvie wrote: Hey guys, a few questions here! 1) How many queens do you get ZvP vs a FFE? I follow Stephano-style pretty tight, and with no extra queens it's really hard to spread creep. However, I feel that I can afford a few more...how many do you recommend? 2) Lategame ZvP, I tend to max quickly on roaches and trade fairly often, but I will still float ~7k minerals with only ~2k gas or so. How do you guys spend all these minerals? Whenever I make spinecrawler walls, I feel that I lose so much mining time that it just can't be a good thing. 3) In a ZvT, I like to do a hatch-pool-gas opener, into 2 queens -> 5:30 third -> 2-4 more queens (total of 4-6). However, I never feel safe unless I do a roach/ling/bane semi-all-in (Tang's guide, for example). What should I do to feel safe? Infestors come out too late, banelings require lings (which aren't drones), and spines + queens can only do so much. I typically go double evo after the queens. 4) ZvZ, hydras or infestors? Or both? Hydras feel stupid considering they lose 1v1 to a roach, and infestors are SO good if they have energy. So as a general rule, what is a good roach:hydra:infestor ratio? Thanks in advance! Edit: I apologize if any of these questions have been asked before. There are 300 pages of this thread and I don't believe that there's a simple way to search all pages. If you're floating 7k already why would lost mining time matter? | ||
sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On July 01 2012 06:38 FeelTHeBluEZ wrote: I'm really losing motivation for Zerg and Star2 in general ... I feel like I forget more, than I'm learning while I'm laddering, and I'm not understanding so many things, it's depressing... How do you actually get over 70 supply vs P at 8:00 on 3 Hatch, while you're natural got pylon blocked and maybe the third too? I see Pro's get all the time up to 80, and I just don't get how, I don't see what they do better / different than me .. I do not possess sufficient information to answer the immortal/sentry off 2 base. In fact the only thing about that I know of is that zerg are using a ling/bane style to counter its push. I do not even know what to look for in their build order to identify an immortal/sentry all-in as opposed to an ordinary gate+robo push from 2 base. However I believe I can offer advice on your ZvP supply issue. I consistently am managing 72 supply vs P even with double pylon blocks. The only time I don't achieve 72 by 8 minutes is if they cannon rush and I'm forced to pull drones away from mining for a while to block it. The key lies in your overlord timings and your queen timings as well as when you take your third. Pros vary greatly in the latter 2, but their overlord timings are usually pretty uniform. After watching enough pro replays, I'm noticing trends like making OLs just before you're about to hit the block and then timing double overlords when large injects of larva are going to pop. Belial's guide makes a careful point to make 3 overlords at 52-ish supply because you're also sacing one of your overlords to scout presumably (possibly 2 if you scout nat and main at the same time). The most important thing I can say is simple. Do not get supply blocked. Ever. Even 1 overlord being a little late will crush your supply by 10 or even more. Its also been noted that DRG and some other pros do not make their third queen ahead of time, but rather time it from their third hatch as soon as it finishes. I still have no knowledge of when you time the fourth queen. My absolute record by the 8 minute mark making almost purely drones has been 76 supply. I can't figure out how for the life of me DRG got that extra 4. However he is the only instance of public games ZvP reaching 80 supply in queens/drones/a few lings that I know of. 80 is almost unreal and would crush damn near anyone all the way up through grandmaster just from sheer economic strength pumping 4 hatches. Perhaps another Zerg can offer more specifics on the matter, but this is my personal experience that has helped me hit 72 every game. I will one day reach more than 72 consistently but for now that's my magic number for 8 minutes. | ||
Servius_Fulvius
United States947 Posts
On July 01 2012 06:38 FeelTHeBluEZ wrote: How do you actually get over 70 supply vs P at 8:00 on 3 Hatch, while you're natural got pylon blocked and maybe the third too? I see Pro's get all the time up to 80, and I just don't get how, I don't see what they do better / different than me .. I've had a lot of difficulty hitting the 60 supply benchmark when pylon blocked. Replays of Zenio show him getting a queen and two lings, some drones, killing the pylin, then expanding at 21 and again at either 24 or 32. He usually hits about 70 supply. What you can do is practice the opening in a custom against computer and go through the motions of a pylon block. I do this all the time since pylon blocks are so common. Remember that throwing down the pylon puts the toss a little behind on their build. If they let it finish then you're pretty much even so long as you don't get overlord blocked. For the longest time I couldn't hit 70 supply because I was getting one of my early overlords at 34. I started doing it at 31 like some other pro's and usually hit about 70 if I'm undisturbed. Pro's (Idra and Ret specifically) hit 70 supply at 7:30, but then start teching and don't leave 70 until after 8 minutes. I don't think 80 supply is possible on just drones, lings, 3-4 queens, and ovies. Shoot for 70 first ![]() How do you stop 2 base Immortal Sentry All Ins? Engage before it gets to your base, bait forcefields, and macro. If your early game macro is not up to snuff then you won't stand a chance. Ho do I scout a Zerg correctly, so I don't die to an all in or a big roach attack. What's actually a good opening? (I always feel hardcountered on my openings, me 15 Hatch he 6 Pool, me 14/14 he 15 Hatch, me 6 Pool he 14/14 .. da fuck? 7 out of 10 games it's this case, I'm serioulsy getting crazy) Just do the same opener every game. Sure, if you 15 hatch you see a lot of annoying 6 pools and ling all-ins, but once you hold it you get a free win. Scout with lings and overlords. 3 gas usually means a roach all-in. Lots of spines and early 4 gas is either quick infestor for ling/infestor/ultra or roach/infestor or muta play. Early 4 gas with two evos is a dead giveaway for ling/infestor/ultra. Get an overseer once lair is done and sacrifice an ovie if you feel uncomfortable. Poke with lings at the front to get a feel for army size. Have an ovie at their third to see when they expand. Sure, you're still going to lose to all-ins where they hid units very well or you misinterpreted a situation, but at the end of the day each little thing helps describe a bigger picture. If you're an intuitive learner like me then individual ladder games won't mean much, but the act of doing the same builds over and over, dying to the same all-ins continuously, and seeing the same armies come from the same scouting triggers will cause you to just "know" their strategy given the scouting information. [/quote]These are my biggest problems, but I'm feeling there is so much more. Why the hell am I playing suddenly that bad? It's not just "a bad day", it feels like I'm just getting worse per day, and I didn't even play with a bad mindset until today .. gaah. I am a mid master player btw. .. or well .. used to be, I lost to so many diamond players today ... [/quote] There's nothing wrong with losing to diamond players. I'm high plat and most the diamonds I play aren't the God-aweful terrible players you might expect. It sounds like you're upset because you're finding you're not as good as you think you are, but this is possitive because enables a more honest look at your game. Part of getting better is realizing how much we need to improve and nothing sells that like a losing streak! Seriously though, chill out, take a break, do something else for a few hours, and play when your head is clear. | ||
Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I'm really losing motivation for Zerg and Star2 in general ... Check out my zvp guide linked in my profile, I go in-depth into all the questions you ask. Also, yesterday in the GSTL, we saw a zerg beat immortal/sentry all-in with a different tactic - he did the same exact build, drone to 8:30, then mass roach/ling off 4 gas. But instead of trying to engage, he just base traded and crushed the toss! This was a ~9:00 push out into 10:30 hitting your base immortal/sentry all-in. search my posts on roach/ling all-in its incredibly easy to spot. roaches made before a third is taken, no extra gases taken at natural, when you check his mineral line at natural is something less than completely full of drones. You should always have an overlord by his natural's mineral line in zvz - at 50 supply, check to make sure that his natural is absolutely bursting with drones. If it's not, then he's probably doing a roach/ling all-in, and other indicators are roaches made before a third is taken, roaches made at all by 50 supply, no additional gases taken at natural, sac'cing an overlord into main... I mean zerg can either go third before lair (he makes an obvious third goddamn hatchery around 50 supply that a ling or overlord you keep by his third to check hsi third timing sees!), 2 base lair (he takes both gases at natural....), or roach/'ling all-in (not all gases taken, roaches made before third, and no third taken by 50 supply). There are only 3 choices zerg has in zvz into the mid-game. Also, you can't take a third unless you rule out a hatch tech roach/ling all-in. Also, it seems about half of all zerg pros sac an overlord into the main of the opponent in zvz. I suggest you do the same. Just sac an overlord into his main. Hey look, no lair is being made, and there is no third base, that's obvious! Really, at 50 supply, zerg should be completely full of drones on both bases on minerals. It will be pretty obvious "hm why does his mineral line look so much emptier compared to mine". you dont need to count drones, just compare how it looks to your base's mineral field. Anyways, 2 base lair play just hard counters roach/ling all-ins, and a roach/ling all-in only works if you macro poorly or take a third. Since you should have been droning hard, when you see him push out with mass roaches, just throw down 5+ spines and make lots of lings (you will definitely not surpass his roach count since all he's been doing since the start of the game is make roaches, you roach/ling all-in off 25-30 drones). You should hold easily, and make a few banes if he makes banes, to keep your lings safe from that (thats why you dont see roach/bane, him streaming in 10 banes is owned by 2-4 well spread banes as he attacks into a choke with his 10 banes or whatever). Then, you simply win the game with just an overwhelming tech advantage (as well as econ advantage, even if he takes a third), mutas are a great way to close it but 2 base infestor, or 2 base mass speedroach even, will just win since you will be so far ahead. its literally just the zerg 4 gate. If toss 4 gates you, it only wins if you took a third, otherwise you should hold easily if you just mass spines (4 gate hits much earlier, and some maps the natural is wide open, so its not exactly like that, but since roach/ling hits way later, you can afford to throw down 5+ spines easily as it hits when you have 40+ drones while 4 gate hits with just 20+, but same idea, you close the game with just a huge tech advantage on 2 base). I don't think 80 supply is possible on just drones, lings, 3-4 queens, and ovies. Shoot for 70 first . DRG does it. He didn't do it in the GSL (yet), but he did do it at MLG, as far as tournament play. Scout with lings and overlords. 3 gas usually means a roach all-in. you know i saw a zerg do it off 3 gas in pro play, that surprised me. For the longest time it was done off just 1 gas, i wasnt sure if that guy was just doing a sub-optimal build or what. | ||
6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On July 01 2012 07:42 sCCrooked wrote: I do not possess sufficient information to answer the immortal/sentry off 2 base. In fact the only thing about that I know of is that zerg are using a ling/bane style to counter its push. I do not even know what to look for in their build order to identify an immortal/sentry all-in as opposed to an ordinary gate+robo push from 2 base. However I believe I can offer advice on your ZvP supply issue. I consistently am managing 72 supply vs P even with double pylon blocks. The only time I don't achieve 72 by 8 minutes is if they cannon rush and I'm forced to pull drones away from mining for a while to block it. The key lies in your overlord timings and your queen timings as well as when you take your third. Pros vary greatly in the latter 2, but their overlord timings are usually pretty uniform. After watching enough pro replays, I'm noticing trends like making OLs just before you're about to hit the block and then timing double overlords when large injects of larva are going to pop. Belial's guide makes a careful point to make 3 overlords at 52-ish supply because you're also sacing one of your overlords to scout presumably (possibly 2 if you scout nat and main at the same time). The most important thing I can say is simple. Do not get supply blocked. Ever. Even 1 overlord being a little late will crush your supply by 10 or even more. Its also been noted that DRG and some other pros do not make their third queen ahead of time, but rather time it from their third hatch as soon as it finishes. I still have no knowledge of when you time the fourth queen. My absolute record by the 8 minute mark making almost purely drones has been 76 supply. I can't figure out how for the life of me DRG got that extra 4. However he is the only instance of public games ZvP reaching 80 supply in queens/drones/a few lings that I know of. 80 is almost unreal and would crush damn near anyone all the way up through grandmaster just from sheer economic strength pumping 4 hatches. Perhaps another Zerg can offer more specifics on the matter, but this is my personal experience that has helped me hit 72 every game. I will one day reach more than 72 consistently but for now that's my magic number for 8 minutes. The macro info is good, lots of diamond players don't really "get" how much a supply block cuts into your macro, especially in a ramping-up kind of situation like 3hatch zvp. The other thing is just managing saturation across your bases, down to making sure you're using the larvae at a newer, less saturated base to build drones, not overlords. I think the key against sentry immortal, regardless of whether you go ling/bane or roach/ling, is to bait out forcefields by threatening engagements as he tries to move from his base to yours. If he has enough forcefields when you commit, you will lose your army and likely the game. Don't think "oh i macro'd amazing this game, I can just take him straight up", eat your pride and bait forcefields from the moment he leaves the base. | ||
BlackDraft
United States64 Posts
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KhAmun
United States1005 Posts
On June 30 2012 11:24 Gamegene wrote: Probably the biggest strengths of Roach Infestor, vs Mech, is the fact that you have Hive tech much faster, that you are allowed to recycle through the infestors much much quickly, that you have the ability to catch the hellions before the tanks or thors, and that you can turn the tide with neural if the unit numbers are low enough. Probably the biggest weaknesses of Roach Infestor, vs Mech is that it is a much more "slow" composition, in two ways: one is that they are obviously **relatively** slower than banelings, and they're a much more defensive composition. Energy takes time to build up, they're slower to introduce because of pathogen glands and the build time, the infestors can't retreat very well from battles unless the terran is unable to have a scan and have his hellions chase. Another problem to consider is that Broodlords largely benefit from Melee upgrades, rather than Ranged upgrades Probably the biggest strength of Pure Roach is that it's incredible in the short run. Probably the biggest weakness of pure Roach is that it's shit in the long run. The problem with going for a Roach and or Infestor type of style against a player who wants to go for these 2 base 3 base 2-2 +2 armor timings with no tanks, is that it plays against your strengths, and that it's what the Terran WANTS you to do. The Terran's mindset with going for this mass Thor Hellion type of strategy, is that he wants to have a powerful army relative to supply, he wants to have the mobility from not having to deal with siege tanks, and he wants an army that can take a beating. Infested terrans and fungal growths do basically nothing to the army, especially if the the other guy decides to bring the SCV train with him. Roaches are really cost efficient in small numbers because of supply, but that doesn't matter when he's doing his timing because if he's at 170-200 supply, then you objectively just have a shittier army, whether you are maxed with a really cost inefficient army or have less supply than him against an army that's designed to be as supply efficient as possible. Thor Hellion basically mutilates through Roaches once it's large army vs large army, just because you just can't kill the Thors quickly enough, and that there's enough hellions where the Splash damage is an actual threat, coupled with just the pure surface area of the units that you have to cut through. And with this kind of army, it defeats the point of going for Infestors when you want to abuse the fact that he has a high tank count, when his army is meant to steam roll in for the kill, rather than slowly push through your lines methodically, where you have the time to get your broodlords out, to get additional infestors and energy, and just have more breathing room. So literally every problem you address with roach infestor, roach/baneling either doesn't have, or specifically solves it quite effectively. I'll state some of the non-obvious ones. Brood lords benefit from melee upgrades: with roach/bane you should prioritize melee upgrades, the banelings do a tremendous amount of damage to the thors. Infestor spells don't do anything to non-tank mech, and getting rid of trailing SCV's can be difficult: One of the best parts of the baneling play is that their damage is instant. Even if the scv's are trailing and you don't get them, you still burst the thors so low that roaches finish them off before scv's can even begin to repair had they been out of baneling splash range. Hellion splash softening roaches: lol, they're light units, they stand in way of banelings rolling after thors, they die while banes are on move command. Thors not dying quickly enough: the combination burst of baneling's instant damage and a singular attack from a large group of roaches kills a high number of thors really quickly. On the positives of roach infestor you list: Probably the biggest strengths of Roach Infestor, vs Mech, is the fact that you have Hive tech much faster, that you are allowed to recycle through the infestors much much quickly, that you have the ability to catch the hellions before the tanks or thors, and that you can turn the tide with neural if the unit numbers are low enough. You don't necessarily have hive tech faster, nothing is stopping the roach/baneling player from dropping infestation pit and starting hive at any time. You can make banelings upon reaction if they move out before you expected them to. You don't need the actual infestors until it's time to fungal vikings (IMO). I'm not sure what you mean with 'recycle' infestors, their spells don't actually do very much vs mech, gas in the mid game is far better spent elsewhere. The only positive that actually stands in this list is the fact that you can fungal hellions that get too far ahead or attempt to run by.. This can be incredibly helpful at times. I also disagree with your remark that terran wants you to do some type of roach-based defense when they're doing some tankless 2-2-2 mech timing. I think that timing is specifically designed to kill a zerg trying to go fast infestors/hive, hitting before brood lords are out. And to Belial: I don't disagree that banelings are very effective against mass thor or mech without tanks, but they leave your tech very far behind. Against general thor/hellion, just pure roach should do just fine for defense. Obviously though, that will delay your tech, just like banes will, and I am saying that you are safe to go infestors with the roaches after saturating 3 bases, and that infestors are far from useless when fighting thor-centric mech. I don't see how you can say "your gas can be much better allocated [than infestors]" when at the same time you are saying get banelings. Going infestors is a much stronger way to improve your tech, while at the same time still being safe against mech pushes. Well pure roach will not do just fine for defense when you're dealing with a 165+ upgraded thor+hellion army. I dont think the infestors are worth the gas when dealing with 3 base 2-2 or 3-3 thor timings, they just don't have robust or reliable enough spells to deal with such a powerful timing-- especially with how easily thors tend to snowball. I say your gas can be better allocated for this reason: roach/baneling can consistently and reliably defend a push like this, and it gives you tremendous options. Depending on what you scout/how the terran is playing you can delay making the banelings in order to get infestors/hive going faster. Once you've maxed and reached hive, even after a large engagement you are in a very flexible position as I explained in my initial post on the matter. You could consider your tech a bit more mature if you go infestors, but vs thor they don't have much reliable use up until you are actually producing brood lords and corruptors-- when they're fungaling vikings. | ||
arie3000
153 Posts
I try to do this Roach-ling style, meaning that a good player is maxed at 11-12 minutes, while I am at 13-14 minutes. Often I can kill the third, and contain the P at least for a while. Then, they often tech a bit more (on 2 base), get 2 colli and just crush me. I feel that the roach unit composition is very fragile, in the sense that when the P breaks you, it is gg, because a maxed Z army won't stand a chance. Is it wise to tech to hive earlier? I have difficulties in the transition, teching too hard can lose you a game, but if they come with their 180 pop deathball it is gg too... I've tried to make forests of spine crawlers (which helps), but it doesn't really work on maps like cloud kingdom, they can either attack the nat or the third, and it is not all 'coverable' with spines. Making this many spines feels a little stupid too, there should be a better way of solving this.... | ||
Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On July 02 2012 00:08 arie3000 wrote: I have some issues vs. P. Ok, I'm in the lower leagues so there's a lot to improve on, but I lose a disproportionate amount of games to P lately. I try to do this Roach-ling style, meaning that a good player is maxed at 11-12 minutes, while I am at 13-14 minutes. Often I can kill the third, and contain the P at least for a while. Then, they often tech a bit more (on 2 base), get 2 colli and just crush me. I feel that the roach unit composition is very fragile, in the sense that when the P breaks you, it is gg, because a maxed Z army won't stand a chance. Is it wise to tech to hive earlier? I have difficulties in the transition, teching too hard can lose you a game, but if they come with their 180 pop deathball it is gg too... I've tried to make forests of spine crawlers (which helps), but it doesn't really work on maps like cloud kingdom, they can either attack the nat or the third, and it is not all 'coverable' with spines. Making this many spines feels a little stupid too, there should be a better way of solving this.... If you really want to continue roach/ling max a la Stephano, it is perfectly viable in every league except top master+ I believe. The trick to hitting an 11 minute max is do a solid opener (15p 16h, 4:15 third, when first queen finishes, inject main then transfer, remake queen at main) After that it's just hitting injects, making drones, and not getting supply blocked. Once the roach/ling starts to flow, P should never even get a probe to their third, unless they did some cheesy blind counter (ex. Double robo immortal). Typically, I take all the rest of my gas when I'm nearing max, and I expand + macro hatch. If you're trading constantly, P should never get two colo. it always helps to drop a spire when you see a robo, but don't make corruptors until you see colo. ProTip: spire + hive take the exact same time to morph! Start both at same time, instant greater spire! As a side note, broodlords aren't the only option. Ling/bane/infestor/ultra is REALLY good. Ultras kill colo better than corruptors hahaha. I believe Belial has an awesome ZvP guide on ling/infestor, it's a nice alternative to lolol0roacheslolol. | ||
arie3000
153 Posts
On July 02 2012 00:43 Mavvie wrote: If you really want to continue roach/ling max a la Stephano, it is perfectly viable in every league except top master+ I believe. The trick to hitting an 11 minute max is do a solid opener (15p 16h, 4:15 third, when first queen finishes, inject main then transfer, remake queen at main) After that it's just hitting injects, making drones, and not getting supply blocked. Once the roach/ling starts to flow, P should never even get a probe to their third, unless they did some cheesy blind counter (ex. Double robo immortal). Typically, I take all the rest of my gas when I'm nearing max, and I expand + macro hatch. If you're trading constantly, P should never get two colo. it always helps to drop a spire when you see a robo, but don't make corruptors until you see colo. ProTip: spire + hive take the exact same time to morph! Start both at same time, instant greater spire! As a side note, broodlords aren't the only option. Ling/bane/infestor/ultra is REALLY good. Ultras kill colo better than corruptors hahaha. I believe Belial has an awesome ZvP guide on ling/infestor, it's a nice alternative to lolol0roacheslolol. Thanks! I never managed to max-out in 11 minutes, but it is a good build to practice macro. So what is the right response when P is just sitting on 2 base when you arrive? attacking up the ramp is just suicide, FF + immortals makes for VERY efficient trading in P's favour, but your army is very poor DPS/supply. Should you try to prevent the 3rd as long as possible, while teching hard to hive? I feel that this is the way to do it properly, produce a ton of roaches, attack, expand AND tech while attacking. Or 'fuck those roaches' and turtle up and go to hive quickly. | ||
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