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On July 07 2012 05:11 Belial88 wrote:
^ Please provide a replay, because I don't believe that you are facing immortal/sentry pushes that are pushing out around 9:00+ and inside your base by 10:35. No one in pro play has even attempted to get infestors, as far as I've seen, because you just won't have them in time.
The quickest possible time to get mutas in zvp going fast third is 10:33, and that's by not making a roach warren, getting 6 gas asap, and no upgrades. Infestors take 3 less seconds to get out at best. Immortal/sentry is inside your base at 10:30, so the infestors will be coming out 1 by 1 and dying, or you'll have 5 infestors pop, greeted by a huge army of Toss.
Getting infestors out only takes 20 seconds longer than getting roache speed, and you can confortably have that ready for the push. The point is that you delay the push with the lings, which you can easily do. Protoss can't confortably walk across the map with just immortals and sentries and maybe a zealot from the early game when you have lings parked outside his natural. He has to wait to warpin a round of zealot/stalker before he moves out. This delays him for enough time to get your infestors out. Its quite close, but it can be done. I haven't ran into this allin in a while so I might not be able to find a replay, but I will give it my best shot. If anyone who is good at executing the allin wants to play me, I would love to be proven wrong.
EDIT: I found one, it probably isn't the best example since I don't control very well and he didn't execute that well, but its all that I have. http://drop.sc/215651. I still stomp the attack while I make pretty bad control mistakes, although the mistakes he made executing the push were a lot worse. The replay isn't conclusive that you can hold using infestors, but it provides some evidence. I would like to get more replays to show you, its just that I haven't played a game where protoss did this push in a while.
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^ I understand the merit of counterattacking, but Toss should be able to wall-in and put an extra cannon or two at home against a Zerg doing that.
Watched the replay...
I don't know what was up with that Toss, but he could have just engaged, and FF'd, against those 17 lings. I don't know why he was being so scared about it. His push was also very late, he pushed out at like 9:47, he should have been pushing out much earlier. His macro was pretty poor it seemed to, it seemed like he got supply blocked every time. He had only 2 immortals, usually I think people push out with at least 3?
His execution was really poor too I think... he just had the worst forcefields I've ever seen, and he took the weirdest path around. he got supply blocked every single time, and was never able to warp in a full round of units. In the end he just didn't have nearly enough units, got supply blocked way too much, and hit too late.
It's an interesting idea that you have, but I think it wouldn't work at like really high levels because the timings are too tight. I mean he should be killing shit at 10:30, and he wasn't engaging until 12:00! I think what you were doing was definitely cute, but you didn't produce units until 9:00! Not to mention your supply was only at 59 at the 8:00 mark. I think it was just a game of bad macro, he would have had way more units when your lings came, he could have straight up fought those lings instead of being scared of them, and his FF was terrible.
Thanks for the replay though, it was definitely interesting.
edit:
- At 8:57, he had 2 immortals. That were the only 2 immortals he ever produced. He could have just pushed then. Instead, he didn't push out until 9:42, with just 3 sentries stronger. This guy gets supply blocked way too hard, he just wasted all his chrono on a major supply block...
- If he had simply placed good FF, and didn't get supply blocked, and so your 17 lings kill his pylon, he backs off into his choke, and then he warps in 7 sentry/zealots, while flying foward with the warp prism to start warping forward units, and then walked straight toward your base, he would have easily arrived at your third at the standard 10:30, which was when you only had 5 infestors not even half done, 5 roaches, and 50 lings.
I don't think you can get infestors against a strong immortal/sentry all-in.
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On July 07 2012 05:27 Nezi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 05:11 Belial88 wrote:
^ Please provide a replay, because I don't believe that you are facing immortal/sentry pushes that are pushing out around 9:00+ and inside your base by 10:35. No one in pro play has even attempted to get infestors, as far as I've seen, because you just won't have them in time.
The quickest possible time to get mutas in zvp going fast third is 10:33, and that's by not making a roach warren, getting 6 gas asap, and no upgrades. Infestors take 3 less seconds to get out at best. Immortal/sentry is inside your base at 10:30, so the infestors will be coming out 1 by 1 and dying, or you'll have 5 infestors pop, greeted by a huge army of Toss. Getting infestors out only takes 20 seconds longer than getting roache speed, and you can confortably have that ready for the push. The point is that you delay the push with the lings, which you can easily do. Protoss can't confortably walk across the map with just immortals and sentries and maybe a zealot from the early game when you have lings parked outside his natural. He has to wait to warpin a round of zealot/stalker before he moves out. This delays him for enough time to get your infestors out. Its quite close, but it can be done. I haven't ran into this allin in a while so I might not be able to find a replay, but I will give it my best shot. If anyone who is good at executing the allin wants to play me, I would love to be proven wrong.
The replay is a pretty bad example of what we're talking about here. Basically if you fix your macro, you'll win ez.
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On July 07 2012 06:10 Belial88 wrote:
^ I understand the merit of counterattacking, but Toss should be able to wall-in and put an extra cannon or two at home against a Zerg doing that.
Watched the replay...
I don't know what was up with that Toss, but he could have just engaged, and FF'd, against those 17 lings. I don't know why he was being so scared about it. His push was also very late, he pushed out at like 9:47, he should have been pushing out much earlier. His macro was pretty poor it seemed to, it seemed like he got supply blocked every time. He had only 2 immortals, usually I think people push out with at least 3?
His execution was really poor too I think... he just had the worst forcefields I've ever seen, and he took the weirdest path around. he got supply blocked every single time, and was never able to warp in a full round of units. In the end he just didn't have nearly enough units, got supply blocked way too much, and hit too late.
It's an interesting idea that you have, but I think it wouldn't work at like really high levels because the timings are too tight. I mean he should be killing shit at 10:30, and he wasn't engaging until 12:00! I think what you were doing was definitely cute, but you didn't produce units until 9:00! Not to mention your supply was only at 59 at the 8:00 mark. I think it was just a game of bad macro, he would have had way more units when your lings came, he could have straight up fought those lings instead of being scared of them, and his FF was terrible.
Thanks for the replay though, it was definitely interesting.
There have definitely been better opponenets that I played and I have held. This was not a good example, I agree, the protoss was pretty bad, but if there is a protoss you know that executes the push well I wouldn't mind playing him and uploading the replay. Most of the toss I play don't do the push very often.
EDIT: If you think that you can't get the infestors out in time, do you think it could work if you cut pathogen glands? The infestors would still have energy to cast at least 2 infested terrans and could get out 30 seconds earlier, probably making it in time.
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If you cut out pathogen glands, then that just means the infestors are useless for longer. That's essentially like making the infestors later.
Infestors are terrible cost inefficient, they just aren't really good at stopping the push (hence why they are great against bad toss, who let you max out, in which case supply efficiency of the infestors shines).
2 infested terrans is not nearly as useful as 6 roaches at 10:30, and the only way you'll have infestors in time for an immortal/sentry push is if you just completely cut out roach production, so all you have are lings and infestors (doing the nestea style no-roach, no roach upgrades, super fast muta but with infestor instead) which just means you have a piddily army.
I mean, in your game, at 10:30, you had infestors not even halfway done, 6 roaches, and 50 lings, which would get destroyed. If you cut out roach production you could have had infestors at 10:30 exactly, but that's him shooting your hatch while your infestors are scrambling as they pop out, and even if your lings buy time, you only have a pure ling army then.
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On July 07 2012 08:37 Belial88 wrote:
2 infested terrans is not nearly as useful as 6 roaches at 10:30, and the only way you'll have infestors in time for an immortal/sentry push is if you just completely cut out roach production, so all you have are lings and infestors (doing the nestea style no-roach, no roach upgrades, super fast muta but with infestor instead) which just means you have a piddily army. .
The bottleneck at this point in the game is not gas, so 1 infestor is not really worth 6 roaches, its more like 3. Also the problem with the push is that your roaches sit behind FFs doing nothing while immortals and stalkers hit them from behind the FFs. 2 ITs that actually hit the army are better than 3 roaches that don't.
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Infestors are terrible cost inefficient
Do you use them? They are the most cost effiecent units in the game, the damage they put out, even though they don't kill is amazing, and they stop units in there place. If you have 3-4 fungals you can stop and army push if you fungal the front row in a choke.
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On July 06 2012 13:52 Atthasit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 10:16 GIRRGIRR wrote:Just lost four ZvP games to a 2base push at around 12-14min... two games was Stalker Immortal mix and two games was Stalker Sentry mix. I felt like I knew it was comming everytime but could never hold it  All i hade was 1/1roaches and some lings but never eaven nearly enough since I like the drone button... Any suggestions on how and when to look for this and how to hold the push? Thanks. Hi! To hold these, you need to do two things: 1) scout for what exactly is coming, 2) have a really good macro. You should read Belial's ZvP guide where he explains how to scout the protoss, what to look at and how to react. Basically based on the amount of gas taken and gateways built you figure out if it's an all in or not and either build an army like a madman or start teching and taking more bases. Also look at these replays that showcase a solid way of beating a very hard immortal/sentry all-in.
Thank you Atthasit! That guid is awesome. My ZvP is already much better
Belial you ar a beast!
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Nezi wrote:
The bottleneck at this point in the game is not gas, so 1 infestor is not really worth 6 roaches, its more like 3. Also the problem with the push is that your roaches sit behind FFs doing nothing while immortals and stalkers hit them from behind the FFs. 2 ITs that actually hit the army are better than 3 roaches that don't.
It really doesn't. The way you micro against a sentry/immortal push is as follows.
You engage to force him to use up his energy before he reaches your base. Yes he has a ton of FFs if he did the push well, but you also should have the ability to dodge back in and cause him to use FFs after each attempt. He might cut off some army and so you just set the trapped units to attack and re-select the others to run away and make sure you re-macro and keep up with tech/injects while you do this.
Its very APM-intensive and its basically a way for them to force us to do a bunch of crap for a really long time or we lose the game, but its do-able for the most-part (some maps its really hard, in which case I'd recommend learning ling/bling into ultras build we've seen as a viable counter for this style.
2 ITs will die very quickly and not do much damage. Not to mention if you made 5 infestors you have a lot of floating minerals that you can't use. It happened in your replay and it happens if you try to go infestors amidst a roach/ling mass too. The only way to make infestors more viable is to make more of them so you have a large group of ITs or a few fungals to fire off. However this would cut into your mineral economy from all the drones you'd spend for earlier gasses/mining time during the early game which you'll need to stop the variety of aggression P style today revolves around.
All in all, pros don't consider infestors viable for the same reason we do. Timing and also that they are less useful at the timings we're talking about.
ThePiedPiper wrote:Do you use them? They are the most cost effiecent units in the game, the damage they put out, even though they don't kill is amazing, and they stop units in there place. If you have 3-4 fungals you can stop and army push if you fungal the front row in a choke.
They really aren't since they attack so they have to pay for themselves in spells. That's why fungal rocks and ITs aren't terrible if you can mass a lot of them or use their eggs as a sim-city. Infestors are extremely costly and you have to let them build up energy unless you have enough gas to mass a bunch of them (they're useless if they spawn before the energy upgrade is done too). None of this takes into consideration if you miss or land a poor spell, they literally can do nothing else but try to run away and live long enough to gain energy.
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Do you use them? They are the most cost effiecent units in the game, the damage they put out, even though they don't kill is amazing, and they stop units in there place. If you have 3-4 fungals you can stop and army push if you fungal the front row in a choke.
I use them all the time. But when you compare them to roaches, and especially hydras, they are very cost inefficient.
You are thinking supply efficiency, in which case, infestors are king. Hence why, say, you go infestors in ZvP - you are maxed out on roach/ling, and being at 200/200, you aren't going to really break through or defend a mass ball, so you need infestors to add a lot because supply is becoming an issue.
There's also the issue of tech - infestors are the way to hive, infestors get really good when they start to bank energy, NP. But specifically for timing, like in ZvZ or ZvP, roaches and hydras are almost always better at that crucial 10-15:00 mark. It's afterwards that infestors start to be better.
For example, in ZvZ - you both go fast third before using roaches. If you go infestors, you will straight up die in an even game to someone going roach/hydra, because infestor tech just costs too much, but meanwhile roach/hydra will win. Once you are both maxed, if you stay on hydra and not get infestors, while the opponent used roach/hydra to stay alive and then at 200/200 gets infestors, he will win, because your army isn't going to get any stronger because you simply can't add more units, so you need to start worry about supply efficiency.
Basically, when the game is tight and money is a real issue, roaches and hydras. But when 200/200 becomes an issue, you want infestors. For supply, infestors win. For cost, roaches and hydras win. Make sense?
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Anybody know how to deal with lategame zvt?
Usually when hive tech rolls around i make a big push, but when that push fails i become really screwed cuz I begin to run low on money while at the same time i have to expand to extremely hard to defend for zerg expos.
i find it impossible cuz the terran can secure expansions godly easily, PF+100 missile turrets, while I as the zerg cannot with the terran not even using bcs, jsut mass bio and "zerg" me. its incredible on how i have to keep trading with his bio army, never getting a chance to push, while all his command centers steal every expo and become a PF, containing me like a lion in a cage.
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Best way to hold a proxy 2gate? I scout at 14 in ZvP (which I'm pretty sure is standard) and once I see an empty base I immediately throw up a spine and start ling production. Problem is, zealots massacre lings and even spines have trouble because of the absurd amount of health zealots have. There must be some kind of secret since you rarely see it at the pro levels.
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On July 07 2012 11:51 Hemingway wrote:
Best way to hold a proxy 2gate? I scout at 14 in ZvP (which I'm pretty sure is standard) and once I see an empty base I immediately throw up a spine and start ling production. Problem is, zealots massacre lings and even spines have trouble because of the absurd amount of health zealots have. There must be some kind of secret since you rarely see it at the pro levels.
Always fight in range of your queen, and use lings and drones to make sure that the queen can't die. The queen makes all the difference. Once you get a spine up you are pretty safe and can counterattack his probes with slow lings and end it.
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On July 07 2012 11:32 STYDawn wrote:
Anybody know how to deal with lategame zvt?
Usually when hive tech rolls around i make a big push, but when that push fails i become really screwed cuz I begin to run low on money while at the same time i have to expand to extremely hard to defend for zerg expos.
i find it impossible cuz the terran can secure expansions godly easily, PF+100 missile turrets, while I as the zerg cannot with the terran not even using bcs, jsut mass bio and "zerg" me. its incredible on how i have to keep trading with his bio army, never getting a chance to push, while all his command centers steal every expo and become a PF, containing me like a lion in a cage.
Should be able to win with Broodlords + Corrupters + infestor = gg  . Mostly.
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Does someone want to evaluate my macro? I went on an empty map and just did my ZVP build order and maxed to 200 on ling/muta
Please go super in depth, and help me find every mistake, I already now my inital gas was late by 15 or so seconds, and got supply blocked once or twice before 9:00 minutes
http://drop.sc/216350 Plat btw
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I think the key to holding off the 11ish minute sentry/immortal push is just making sure you don't stop droning too early. Lots of people just reflexively start making drones at 830-9 or AS SOON AS they see warpgate start finishing. For some pushes that's necessary, but if you properly scout that the sentry/immo push is coming you can safely (at least ime at mid masters NA) get up to 72+ drones with 5-6 gas and a macro hatch. I suppose theoretically you can hold this off with pure roach/ling, but lately I've been experimenting with hydras and they come out with range finishing just at the usual timing of the push. Creep spread is obv essential if you want to use hydras.
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Anybody know how to deal with lategame zvt?
Usually when hive tech rolls around i make a big push, but when that push fails i become really screwed cuz I begin to run low on money while at the same time i have to expand to extremely hard to defend for zerg expos.
i find it impossible cuz the terran can secure expansions godly easily, PF+100 missile turrets, while I as the zerg cannot with the terran not even using bcs, jsut mass bio and "zerg" me. its incredible on how i have to keep trading with his bio army, never getting a chance to push, while all his command centers steal every expo and become a PF, containing me like a lion in a cage.
There's no reason not to place 10+ spines at bases in lategame, especially when you know that your broodlord army is superior and the only way for you to lose is to drops, as well as patrolling 3-5 banelings per expo. It's not unreasonable to even have 10+ banes at expos.
Doing this isn't simply being lazy - it's a way to put your army to use. We all know the problem with BL/infestor is the immobility, and if you are having to be pulled this way and that way due to drops, you will simply never be able to use your BL/infestor army and deny future bases of Terran so you can close the game.
here's a rep of me playing ZvT, you'll notice I plant a ton of spines, banelings, and lots of overlord spread.
http://drop.sc/216353
The game ends with literally me mining out every single base I can on Ohana, and I close the win by using 50+ spinecrawlers to deny his 5th base, and he leaves when, despite having a bigger army, he has no marines to shoot up at my 3 broodlords. In this game, I plant a ton of spines all over the map, and with him playing largely MMM, I threw about 5-20 spines even relatively early in the midgame so I could use my broodlords to their full advantage, as well as putting lots of banes everywhere. I even go mutas in this game, but used lots of spine+bane to make sure drops would't prevent me from using my mutas to harass.
Maybe I can find a better rep where I actually stop drops, but you get the idea.
Best way to hold a proxy 2gate? I scout at 14 in ZvP (which I'm pretty sure is standard) and once I see an empty base I immediately throw up a spine and start ling production. Problem is, zealots massacre lings and even spines have trouble because of the absurd amount of health zealots have. There must be some kind of secret since you rarely see it at the pro levels.
You don't even need to scout it, really.
Check my ZvP guide, I talk in-depth about it.
You morph 2 spines in your main, in the mineral line to reduce surface area, apart from each other so he can't attack both at the same time. You can cancel one of them, but if Toss is good generally he will force you to cancel at least one of them. You can make drones or lings, whatever, once 2 or 1 spine pops you are good, as your queen will pop and you will have larva inject. it's just before larva inject that 2 gate is a problem.
Also, you should start gas asap to get ling speed so you can just run into his base and close the game, as well as own his zealots.
As for your expo, if he attacks your expo, he's an idiot, just cancel it last second, and bam, he walks into your base and he's greeted by 1-2 spines, a queen, and speedlings, and is too all-in to transition (he proxied all of his gates for christ sake...). Even if he kills your nat, you are way ahead if you dont lose drones. If he goes for your main, which he should, it's an all-in, well, your natural stays up. Of course, you can cancel it if you are inexperienced, and in my guide I actually say to cancel it, but really you should keep it so hopefully he attacks it and then you cancel it last second and it buys you precious time for the spine to get up.
If he sits there and banks zealots, and then hits you, just mass spines in your base.
Replays should be in my guide on how to hold it.
I think your problem is you aren't starting 2 spines. You need to start 2, because if you start just 1 he will focus it down before it finishes. Then, with a single spine up, you can buy time for a queen, larva inject, and speed, and you just overrun him. Dont go for roaches. And really, I'd recommend you keep both spines until you really know what you are doing.
And if you see an empty base, of course, always always always make 2 spines. If he's banking zealots, it's scary, unless you make lots of speedlings along with single spine. It's very easy to hold, it just wins if you go hatch first...
Does someone want to evaluate my macro? I went on an empty map and just did my ZVP build order and maxed to 200 on ling/muta Please go super in depth, and help me find every mistake, I already now my inital gas was late by 15 or so seconds, and got supply blocked once or twice before 9:00 minutes http://drop.sc/216350 Plat btw
Cant you do this yourself? It's not hard to figure out. If you get supply blocked 'once' or even twice before 9:00, it means your macro is absolutely horrible, especially if you can't even do it right in a unit tester (which is fine, that's about right for platinum level, even mid-masters cannot macro correctly in unit tester, I know I can't, so don't feel bad, it's just amazing how incompetent we all are at macro unless you are GM+, but lower levels tend not to realize that because they dont know what bad macro means).
Every time you are supply blocked, watch your money and larva, how many units/drones could you have made if that supply block didn't happen? Benchmark yourself, how do you compare to a game of DRG at 6, 7, 8, 9:00? Learn when to make overlords. going fast third, I like to make them something like 17, 24 (after inject, third, 2nd queen basically), 32, 36, 44, 52, 60x2-3, etc. something like that. are you starting speed and lair with first 100 gas asap? are you gettng gases and lair and evo and roach warren on time, et cetera. are you missing injects? good macro means macro'ing without supply blocks, lower than 300 minerals, et cetera until the 15:00 mark. It should be very, very simple for anyone to macro like a pro up to the 10:00 mark, there is no excuse that you can't do that, and if you do any basic macro problem in the first 10:00, it means your macro is terrible.
You may not play like a pro, but you can at least macro like one for the first 10:00.
I think the key to holding off the 11ish minute sentry/immortal push is just making sure you don't stop droning too early. Lots of people just reflexively start making drones at 830-9 or AS SOON AS they see warpgate start finishing. For some pushes that's necessary, but if you properly scout that the sentry/immo push is coming you can safely (at least ime at mid masters NA) get up to 72+ drones with 5-6 gas and a macro hatch. I suppose theoretically you can hold this off with pure roach/ling, but lately I've been experimenting with hydras and they come out with range finishing just at the usual timing of the push. Creep spread is obv essential if you want to use hydras.
You go up to 72 drones and 6 gas against immortal/sentry all-in you will die, especially if you go as greedy as to get hydra tech. Only way you can get up to 72 drones is if you macro like DRG and hit 80+ supply by the 8:00 mark and can get 72 drones by 8:30, which is possible but DRG is the only pro I've ever seen hit 80+ in a pro game by 8:00. I struggle to hit 75 in a build order tester. He hits 80+ even when dealing with zealot/stalker pressure and having to make 10 lings or early roaches.
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On July 07 2012 12:54 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +Anybody know how to deal with lategame zvt?
Usually when hive tech rolls around i make a big push, but when that push fails i become really screwed cuz I begin to run low on money while at the same time i have to expand to extremely hard to defend for zerg expos.
i find it impossible cuz the terran can secure expansions godly easily, PF+100 missile turrets, while I as the zerg cannot with the terran not even using bcs, jsut mass bio and "zerg" me. its incredible on how i have to keep trading with his bio army, never getting a chance to push, while all his command centers steal every expo and become a PF, containing me like a lion in a cage. There's no reason not to place 10+ spines at bases in lategame, especially when you know that your broodlord army is superior and the only way for you to lose is to drops, as well as patrolling 3-5 banelings per expo. It's not unreasonable to even have 10+ banes at expos. Doing this isn't simply being lazy - it's a way to put your army to use. We all know the problem with BL/infestor is the immobility, and if you are having to be pulled this way and that way due to drops, you will simply never be able to use your BL/infestor army and deny future bases of Terran so you can close the game. here's a rep of me playing ZvT, you'll notice I plant a ton of spines, banelings, and lots of overlord spread. http://drop.sc/216353The game ends with literally me mining out every single base I can on Ohana, and I close the win by using 50+ spinecrawlers to deny his 5th base, and he leaves when, despite having a bigger army, he has no marines to shoot up at my 3 broodlords. In this game, I plant a ton of spines all over the map, and with him playing largely MMM, I threw about 5-20 spines even relatively early in the midgame so I could use my broodlords to their full advantage, as well as putting lots of banes everywhere. I even go mutas in this game, but used lots of spine+bane to make sure drops would't prevent me from using my mutas to harass. Maybe I can find a better rep where I actually stop drops, but you get the idea. Show nested quote +Best way to hold a proxy 2gate? I scout at 14 in ZvP (which I'm pretty sure is standard) and once I see an empty base I immediately throw up a spine and start ling production. Problem is, zealots massacre lings and even spines have trouble because of the absurd amount of health zealots have. There must be some kind of secret since you rarely see it at the pro levels. You don't even need to scout it, really. Check my ZvP guide, I talk in-depth about it. You morph 2 spines in your main, in the mineral line to reduce surface area, apart from each other so he can't attack both at the same time. You can cancel one of them, but if Toss is good generally he will force you to cancel at least one of them. You can make drones or lings, whatever, once 2 or 1 spine pops you are good, as your queen will pop and you will have larva inject. it's just before larva inject that 2 gate is a problem. Also, you should start gas asap to get ling speed so you can just run into his base and close the game, as well as own his zealots. As for your expo, if he attacks your expo, he's an idiot, just cancel it last second, and bam, he walks into your base and he's greeted by 1-2 spines, a queen, and speedlings, and is too all-in to transition (he proxied all of his gates for christ sake...). Even if he kills your nat, you are way ahead if you dont lose drones. If he goes for your main, which he should, it's an all-in, well, your natural stays up. Of course, you can cancel it if you are inexperienced, and in my guide I actually say to cancel it, but really you should keep it so hopefully he attacks it and then you cancel it last second and it buys you precious time for the spine to get up. If he sits there and banks zealots, and then hits you, just mass spines in your base. Replays should be in my guide on how to hold it. I think your problem is you aren't starting 2 spines. You need to start 2, because if you start just 1 he will focus it down before it finishes. Then, with a single spine up, you can buy time for a queen, larva inject, and speed, and you just overrun him. Dont go for roaches. And really, I'd recommend you keep both spines until you really know what you are doing. And if you see an empty base, of course, always always always make 2 spines. If he's banking zealots, it's scary, unless you make lots of speedlings along with single spine. It's very easy to hold, it just wins if you go hatch first... Show nested quote +Does someone want to evaluate my macro? I went on an empty map and just did my ZVP build order and maxed to 200 on ling/muta Please go super in depth, and help me find every mistake, I already now my inital gas was late by 15 or so seconds, and got supply blocked once or twice before 9:00 minutes http://drop.sc/216350 Plat btw Cant you do this yourself? It's not hard to figure out. If you get supply blocked 'once' or even twice before 9:00, it means your macro is absolutely horrible, especially if you can't even do it right in a unit tester (which is fine, that's about right for platinum level, even mid-masters cannot macro correctly in unit tester, I know I can't, so don't feel bad, it's just amazing how incompetent we all are at macro unless you are GM+, but lower levels tend not to realize that because they dont know what bad macro means). Every time you are supply blocked, watch your money and larva, how many units/drones could you have made if that supply block didn't happen? Benchmark yourself, how do you compare to a game of DRG at 6, 7, 8, 9:00? Learn when to make overlords. going fast third, I like to make them something like 17, 24 (after inject, third, 2nd queen basically), 32, 36, 44, 52, 60x2-3, etc. something like that. are you starting speed and lair with first 100 gas asap? are you gettng gases and lair and evo and roach warren on time, et cetera. are you missing injects? good macro means macro'ing without supply blocks, lower than 300 minerals, et cetera until the 15:00 mark. It should be very, very simple for anyone to macro like a pro up to the 10:00 mark, there is no excuse that you can't do that, and if you do any basic macro problem in the first 10:00, it means your macro is terrible. You may not play like a pro, but you can at least macro like one for the first 10:00. Show nested quote +
I think the key to holding off the 11ish minute sentry/immortal push is just making sure you don't stop droning too early. Lots of people just reflexively start making drones at 830-9 or AS SOON AS they see warpgate start finishing. For some pushes that's necessary, but if you properly scout that the sentry/immo push is coming you can safely (at least ime at mid masters NA) get up to 72+ drones with 5-6 gas and a macro hatch. I suppose theoretically you can hold this off with pure roach/ling, but lately I've been experimenting with hydras and they come out with range finishing just at the usual timing of the push. Creep spread is obv essential if you want to use hydras.
You go up to 72 drones and 6 gas against immortal/sentry all-in you will die, especially if you go as greedy as to get hydra tech. Only way you can get up to 72 drones is if you macro like DRG and hit 80+ supply by the 8:00 mark and can get 72 drones by 8:30, which is possible but DRG is the only pro I've ever seen hit 80+ in a pro game by 8:00. I struggle to hit 75 in a build order tester. He hits 80+ even when dealing with zealot/stalker pressure and having to make 10 lings or early roaches.
Thanks for the tip
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Long-time lurker here, just made an account to be a little more active. I know that is irrelavant, but I just wanted to say something about myself in my first post eva  . I also would like to add that I am a silver player, and am doing my damndest to improve mechanics.
I actually have 4 questions:
1) For zerg, I see a lot of flowcharts on gameplans. I'm silver, so I can usually stick to any one of those 3 flow plans and be constantly ahead in food/army count. How do I deal with...being ahead as a zerg? I know it sounds weird to ask that. Am I really supposed to just blindly go into one of those 3 branches? I don't want to just overwhelm and win at the 7 minute mark, since I am trying to practice my macro skills, but I also don't want to get into a "rock paper scissors" kind of a situation where I lose because I made a lot of roaches, for example, and he got a stargate at the back of his base and massed voidrays.
2) For teching, when do i choose the stage at which I go for the next tier? Upgrading hatch to lair comes to me naturally at around 6:20 as I seem to have just the right amount of gas/minerals as well as a couple of upgrades researching, but I seem to never understand when "its time" to Hive up. I am trying to learn how to think of when to do what, so I can respond to different situations, so I am NOT looking for an answer like "by minute X or food X you should hive", but more like "once your 1/1 is done and your third expo is under control".
3) Supply blocks. Ugh, I hate them. I read all the zerg guides on the sticky, and their ways to deal with this does not make intuitive sense to me. I know I fail at checking supply count way more than I should (as we all know, once is once too many), but sometimes I seem to run into trouble even when I am making OS and staring at the top right corner. For example: buncha roaches are being made, and I have like 10 "open" supplies to work with after they are being made. Next inject cycle is done, and suddently I have way more larvae (3x4=12) than open supplies. Should I just keep 20-30 ahead of my count midgame or is there a "trick" or "ratio" to how to deal with this? Or am I basically supposed to "know" what my next cycle is going to be and plan 3 steps ahead with supply count? Because 2 hatches with 5-7 larvae full of roaches is...anywhere from 20-28 food, while drones are only 10-14 food.
4) If I am given free reign, is it normal for me to have excess minerals AND gas? Since I am basically allowed to drone up to full saturation in 2 bases in the early game if no attacks come, and my larvae only eats up 50 minerals per. Or am I still supposed to keep my supplies really low? If so, what are the ways to do this? Watching pro replays did not help me at all on this topic, since noone in their right mind lets TLO drone up to 60 in his first 75-80 supply without some sort of aggression. (while proofreading this post, I realized I could've made more overseers here and there with the excess, so if that is the answer, I will feel insanely stupid)
Keep up the awesome work and thanks for both the hard work you guys do here and with the Replays
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On July 08 2012 03:14 IdiotequeK wrote:Long-time lurker here, just made an account to be a little more active. I know that is irrelavant, but I just wanted to say something about myself in my first post eva . I also would like to add that I am a silver player, and am doing my damndest to improve mechanics. I actually have 4 questions: 1) For zerg, I see a lot of flowcharts on gameplans. I'm silver, so I can usually stick to any one of those 3 flow plans and be constantly ahead in food/army count. How do I deal with...being ahead as a zerg? I know it sounds weird to ask that. Am I really supposed to just blindly go into one of those 3 branches? I don't want to just overwhelm and win at the 7 minute mark, since I am trying to practice my macro skills, but I also don't want to get into a "rock paper scissors" kind of a situation where I lose because I made a lot of roaches, for example, and he got a stargate at the back of his base and massed voidrays. 2) For teching, when do i choose the stage at which I go for the next tier? Upgrading hatch to lair comes to me naturally at around 6:20 as I seem to have just the right amount of gas/minerals as well as a couple of upgrades researching, but I seem to never understand when "its time" to Hive up. I am trying to learn how to think of when to do what, so I can respond to different situations, so I am NOT looking for an answer like "by minute X or food X you should hive", but more like "once your 1/1 is done and your third expo is under control". 3) Supply blocks. Ugh, I hate them. I read all the zerg guides on the sticky, and their ways to deal with this does not make intuitive sense to me. I know I fail at checking supply count way more than I should (as we all know, once is once too many), but sometimes I seem to run into trouble even when I am making OS and staring at the top right corner. For example: buncha roaches are being made, and I have like 10 "open" supplies to work with after they are being made. Next inject cycle is done, and suddently I have way more larvae (3x4=12) than open supplies. Should I just keep 20-30 ahead of my count midgame or is there a "trick" or "ratio" to how to deal with this? Or am I basically supposed to "know" what my next cycle is going to be and plan 3 steps ahead with supply count? Because 2 hatches with 5-7 larvae full of roaches is...anywhere from 20-28 food, while drones are only 10-14 food. 4) If I am given free reign, is it normal for me to have excess minerals AND gas? Since I am basically allowed to drone up to full saturation in 2 bases in the early game if no attacks come, and my larvae only eats up 50 minerals per. Or am I still supposed to keep my supplies really low? If so, what are the ways to do this? Watching pro replays did not help me at all on this topic, since noone in their right mind lets TLO drone up to 60 in his first 75-80 supply without some sort of aggression. (while proofreading this post, I realized I could've made more overseers here and there with the excess, so if that is the answer, I will feel insanely stupid) Keep up the awesome work and thanks for both the hard work you guys do here and with the Replays
Haha, welcome to TL!
1) Typically, when you are ahead, use your advantage to get more ahead! Say it's ZvP, he's on 2base and you're on 3. If he did some kind of 4gate +1 pressure and you're almost maxed on roach/ling, you have an army advantage and an economy advantage. In this scenario, you would want to drop an infestation pit, any gasses you haven't taken, and take a fourth, while using your current army to deny his third. In ZvP:
i) You get an economy advantage by taking 3 fast bases vs a FFE
ii) Using your huge economic advantage, you make a shitload of units and translate it into an army advantage
iii) Since you have a big advantage, you want to fast-tech to broodlords. Drop an infestation pit, and you want to be mining from 8-10 gas for hive tech. Typically, you will want to use your roaches to do multi-pronged aggression...but not in silver league Try to sacrifice them while taking out as much of his army as you can. At lower leagues, protoss are retards and if they think they are ahead, they will attack. If they a lot of colo/stalker, just max on roaches again! It really sucks, but I remember I kept dying during my transitions because protoss didn't realize that the correct play is to expand, not attack xD
2) Different in every matchup. In ZvZ, I only get hive for 3/3, crackling, and ultra tech. I take it once I am maxed on my T2 army (either roach/hydra/infestor or infestor/ling) and have a shitload of money banked. Hive isn't crucial in ZvZ. Economy is more important.
In ZvT, it's really a race to hive tech with as much gas as you can get I don't believe in broodlords except for ZvP, but they're pretty popular. Typically, you start your hive when your 2/2 is ~40% done, you have 3-4 bases, and are not about to die (Y)
3) I can't help with supply blocks, it happens to me all the time. I think a good way to do it is spend your inject larvae on units, then while the next inject is on the way, use the naturally spawning larvae on overlords. Not sure how effective this is, usually my injects aren't synced because I don't miss many, so I just make like 5 at a time when I'm on 3 base :D Better to overproduce OL than to get supply blocked, especially in lower leagues. Hopefully someone else can give good advice on thsi!
4) Simply put: no. It does happen sometimes, typically when I forget tech (f.ex. in ZvT I will bank insane amounts of gas if I was late on my lair tech [spire/infestors]). If you have minerals, they should be drones, overlords, queens, hatcheries, spines, spores, evos, whatever. You should never have enough minerals. Gas should be upgrades (1/1), upgrades (speed), upgrades (lair/hive), upgrades (pathogen glands, neural, etc), upgrades(greater spire/chitinous), upgrades (Burrow), upgrades (bane speed), upgrades, and then units! It's technically greedy, but I've never run into someone who beat me because I had 1 less muta for researching burrow. Note: The order of those upgrades is random, just expressing that you should /never/ have too much gas if you're playing right.
Feel free to upload a replay and we can look into your play and give tips! ^^
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