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On July 08 2012 14:47 Gikimish wrote:Show nested quote + You should never get hive tech against a 2 basing opponent (might be a small chance to do it against deathball play toss, but that's very very arguable as the best option).
If he went mech, mass roaches off 3 base would have owned him. You simply aren't macro'ing well enough, at all, that's why this owned you so badly. Macro better, and such pushes won't work. Also, 2 base pushes specifically punish a Zerg who's teching too quickly, from toss gateway all-ins like immortal/sentry or blink or anything autowinning basically against a zerg getting his 5th and 6th gas for infestors/mutas, to mech pushes killing a zerg who tries to go hive.
2 base timings, yea, can definitely be scary. But if someone is massing a deathball on 2 base, you just aren't macro'ing well at all, and are probably teching too hard. Mass units and kill him. Pure baneling probably would have beat him too.
Can you go a little more in-dpeth into the game though, before I watch? ie what exactly happened, what you did.You should never get hive tech against a 2 basing opponent (might be a small chance to do it against deathball play toss, but that's very very arguable as the best option).
If he went mech, mass roaches off 3 base would have owned him. You simply aren't macro'ing well enough, at all, that's why this owned you so badly. Macro better, and such pushes won't work. Also, 2 base pushes specifically punish a Zerg who's teching too quickly, from toss gateway all-ins like immortal/sentry or blink or anything autowinning basically against a zerg getting his 5th and 6th gas for infestors/mutas, to mech pushes killing a zerg who tries to go hive.
2 base timings, yea, can definitely be scary. But if someone is massing a deathball on 2 base, you just aren't macro'ing well at all, and are probably teching too hard. Mass units and kill him. Pure baneling probably would have beat him too.
Can you go a little more in-dpeth into the game though, before I watch? ie what exactly happened, what you did... You didn't watch the replay ;0/ He says 2 bases, but you cant really call it a 2 base timing, when the terran doesnt push out until 25 minutes! Sorry just saw you say at the end for him to describe before you watch, my apoligie, its just a case of macro, if you want the truth, he just really needs to pratice his macro, also I would look at unit counters, Pretty much in a nutshell, he see's 4 hellions and goes pure roach, vs mmm. The terran has 2 defensive tanks at home, its wierd watching silver games lol, The terran didnt take new expos until his previous ones were mined out lol.
Right... you shouldn't get hive against an opponent on 2 base, if they are doing a timing or not (and that's why 2 base turtling never happens in pro level play anymore, because of good balance patching and if you dont grab a third you just miss the timing it works against an opponent who expanded and macro'd well).
I said he needs to macro, but I also said his intent to get broodlords against an opponent on 2 base was not a good idea.
Always make an overseer when lair finishes to see exactly what the opponent is doing, even if you had an overseer get a great scout (ie did he make 4 gates because he plans to expand with that robo, or 8 gates for an all-in, was that banshee opener by T followed up by mass marine or an expo, is zerg planning on going roaches or hive after his mutas, etc).
Even if you made a bunch of roaches, your overseer confirms it's not mech and you just get appropriate army (ling/bane +muta/infestor) and you'll be fine. Roaches are terrible against bio though... i think just silver is just so low level that's it's not about focusing on macro, it's more about understanding unit interactions... making overseers to see what the opponent is doing, expanding against a 2 baser, making lots of army because the opponent hasn't expanded yet and you are already up a base, banelings counter bio.
oops meant to copy/paste not hit post.
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On July 08 2012 15:52 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 15:01 Gikimish wrote:On July 08 2012 09:45 vectrekawn wrote:
Against a T who either goes reactor hellion expand or doesn't open with any gas, how viable is an early roach/ling push with a third base, cutting drones at around 31?
Basically I've been using this strat vs diamond/low masters players and it's working quite well, but I'd like to know whether it holds higher up in the ladder, since hopefully I'll be there soon.
Upon scouting lack of gas with my drone, or reactor hellion with my first pair of lings, I'll stop droning at 36. I put down a roach warren followed by 3 overlords, 8 roaches, and 16 zerglings. Then I'll attack his front with these while droning, taking a third, and getting double upgrades. The idea is to kill all or most of his hellions with roaches and do some damage at the front while safely getting a third. And well against many T's that I play, they're forced to lift their natural and run back to their main, so I get to deny a lot of mining time (but I don't know if this is supposed to happen at higher levels).
I know there's various roach/ling all-ins which cut drones at around 20, but I don't cut drones until like 31, so hopefully it's more viable in the long term? I really hate when T has a bunch of hellions running around in the midgame since then I can't really be aggressive with lings. This is close to how I play in mid masters, belive it or not 75% of terrans die to it and call me a cheseeing noob, I do the stephano style, open standard with speed, take off gas, then at 6min return to gas take 2nd gas, and drop a rw. @90% rw bane nest, then 7 roaches, and 14 lings(8 turn to banes), 7:30 3rd, 8min both expo gases, 8:30 double evo's, 10min lair, and 12min hive into ultra's. The pressure you can apply if it doesn't kill them sets them so far behind, you are good to drone up ur 3rd, and take a 4th soon after. I have lost, 2 times so far with this build, and they were both proxy banshee. I am really stead fast about scouting for banshee, because of the late evo's and lair. Uh... hm. The guy you are replying to does something that is, in my opinion, less viable than your version-- he does not add banelings. Which gives him no ability to bust through a wall. His build/strategy can be dead in the water if the terran has just a flimsy supply depot wall at the natural and kept his bunker (gasless FE), so it is primarily used against hellion openings. It can work, it often still gets through, but it's very different from a roach-bane timing. Additionally, he's not trying to kill the terran and he's fine without doing damage because he's just trying to secure a third--in which case just serious roach pressure (say 6-8) should be enough, no need to convert 8 drones into 16 lings as well. Stephano used to do exactly that, as this roach timing forces hellions to come back to defend if a marauder+bunker or a tank isn't ready, and it does so without the use of reinforcing lings, so that he can drone up behind it while forcing an scv pull if he can break into the main, or a lift at the natural if his roaches get stuck outside. Basically, you guys are talking about pretty different things: sounds like he wants an aggressive roach push against reactored hellions, and you like to do a roach-ling-bane timing attack/semi all-in. The biggest difference is in intent, as he just wants a build that shuts down hellions while he macros, while your attack pretty much needs to do damage, but is also viable against marine-heavy FEs, too. Whereas his quick roach business is primarily a response to reactored hellion. EDIT: clarity
So I actually do this build against gasless FE as well. The 8 roaches plus zerglings can easily take down a bunker/supply depot/etc. If he does a solid wall with barracks, factories, etc. then I'll just pick off a couple of buildings and then back off, they're sufficiently large that most of the marines behind the buildings can't shoot at my roaches while I kill his buildings.
I'm not looking to bust up his ramp or anything, in which case I'l definitely need banelings. But I feel like breaking a flimsy wall/bunkers at the natural is fairly easy with roach/ling at low masters. Of course, I'm not sure if this works at high masters, which is why I'm asking. The main thing I'm worried about is some form of timing attack with marauder/hellion, since my lair tech is rather delayed.
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^ can you show a rep of you doing this against 1 rax fe?
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[ZvT Idea / Discussion]
Hi fellow cerebrates,
i am sure that you all agree that fungaling medivacs to death is pretty inefficient in terms of infestor energy. Especially when there are a lot of stray medivacs all around. Often times the infestor energy invested to fungal these down could be used way more effective in big battles, so i started wondering...
... in the very very late game (like 20+ minutes), wouldn't it be cool to just plant down a hydralisk den and mix in around 4-5 hydralisks into your army just for the sole purpose of dpsing down medivacs in combination with a single fungal?
I know most of you will immediatly say: "But Hydras are sooo slow". Yes they are, but they are the same exact movementspeed as infestors offcreep, so you can just add them to your infestor control group.
They'll also be not even that squishy, as you should have +3 carapace around that time.
And its also not a huge investment, its only 250/250 for the HydraDen and the range upgrade + the costs for the hydras. That's easily affordable in that stage of the game, remember i am talking about the late game only.
What do you think?
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4-5 hydras is 10 supply. With that, I could make 5 more infestors, which means a ton of more energy, and fungaling medivacs to death isnt that much of a problem anymore
I could also make 5 queens instead. They do exactly what you just mentioned AND they provide creep tumors and transfusion, which is so useful in a broodlord focused army, the comp you want at ultimate lategame.
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On July 08 2012 21:00 reapsen wrote:
[ZvT Idea / Discussion]
Hi fellow cerebrates,
i am sure that you all agree that fungaling medivacs to death is pretty inefficient in terms of infestor energy. Especially when there are a lot of stray medivacs all around. Often times the infestor energy invested to fungal these down could be used way more effective in big battles, so i started wondering...
... in the very very late game (like 20+ minutes), wouldn't it be cool to just plant down a hydralisk den and mix in around 4-5 hydralisks into your army just for the sole purpose of dpsing down medivacs in combination with a single fungal?
I know most of you will immediatly say: "But Hydras are sooo slow". Yes they are, but they are the same exact movementspeed as infestors offcreep, so you can just add them to your infestor control group.
They'll also be not even that squishy, as you should have +3 carapace around that time.
And its also not a huge investment, its only 250/250 for the HydraDen and the range upgrade + the costs for the hydras. That's easily affordable in that stage of the game, remember i am talking about the late game only.
What do you think?
It's not that cool. You'll still need to fungal to pin down a medivac long enough for slow hydras to kill it, and hydra range, too. Why not just plop down two or three ITs from the extra infestor you've gotten instead of spending on hydra den+hydra range? Then you also have an extra infestor or two, arguably more lasting and effective overall.
I really feel that you will always want infestors at that point, and as many as possible. Yes, hydras are theoretically useful, vs vikings and medivacs etc., but infestors are just so powerful that taking gas away from infestor spending is a big no-no, especially since BL is a common endgame choice, in which case you'll likely have corruptors floating around to help with AA.
Maybe I just really like infestors, but I don't see any reason to spend gas on hydras that late. I would prefer dragging extra queens along to cutting into my infestor or BL count for a few hydras.
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On July 08 2012 16:37 vectrekawn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 15:52 6xFPCs wrote:On July 08 2012 15:01 Gikimish wrote:On July 08 2012 09:45 vectrekawn wrote:
Against a T who either goes reactor hellion expand or doesn't open with any gas, how viable is an early roach/ling push with a third base, cutting drones at around 31?
Basically I've been using this strat vs diamond/low masters players and it's working quite well, but I'd like to know whether it holds higher up in the ladder, since hopefully I'll be there soon.
Upon scouting lack of gas with my drone, or reactor hellion with my first pair of lings, I'll stop droning at 36. I put down a roach warren followed by 3 overlords, 8 roaches, and 16 zerglings. Then I'll attack his front with these while droning, taking a third, and getting double upgrades. The idea is to kill all or most of his hellions with roaches and do some damage at the front while safely getting a third. And well against many T's that I play, they're forced to lift their natural and run back to their main, so I get to deny a lot of mining time (but I don't know if this is supposed to happen at higher levels).
I know there's various roach/ling all-ins which cut drones at around 20, but I don't cut drones until like 31, so hopefully it's more viable in the long term? I really hate when T has a bunch of hellions running around in the midgame since then I can't really be aggressive with lings. This is close to how I play in mid masters, belive it or not 75% of terrans die to it and call me a cheseeing noob, I do the stephano style, open standard with speed, take off gas, then at 6min return to gas take 2nd gas, and drop a rw. @90% rw bane nest, then 7 roaches, and 14 lings(8 turn to banes), 7:30 3rd, 8min both expo gases, 8:30 double evo's, 10min lair, and 12min hive into ultra's. The pressure you can apply if it doesn't kill them sets them so far behind, you are good to drone up ur 3rd, and take a 4th soon after. I have lost, 2 times so far with this build, and they were both proxy banshee. I am really stead fast about scouting for banshee, because of the late evo's and lair. Uh... hm. The guy you are replying to does something that is, in my opinion, less viable than your version-- he does not add banelings. Which gives him no ability to bust through a wall. His build/strategy can be dead in the water if the terran has just a flimsy supply depot wall at the natural and kept his bunker (gasless FE), so it is primarily used against hellion openings. It can work, it often still gets through, but it's very different from a roach-bane timing. Additionally, he's not trying to kill the terran and he's fine without doing damage because he's just trying to secure a third--in which case just serious roach pressure (say 6-8) should be enough, no need to convert 8 drones into 16 lings as well. Stephano used to do exactly that, as this roach timing forces hellions to come back to defend if a marauder+bunker or a tank isn't ready, and it does so without the use of reinforcing lings, so that he can drone up behind it while forcing an scv pull if he can break into the main, or a lift at the natural if his roaches get stuck outside. Basically, you guys are talking about pretty different things: sounds like he wants an aggressive roach push against reactored hellions, and you like to do a roach-ling-bane timing attack/semi all-in. The biggest difference is in intent, as he just wants a build that shuts down hellions while he macros, while your attack pretty much needs to do damage, but is also viable against marine-heavy FEs, too. Whereas his quick roach business is primarily a response to reactored hellion. EDIT: clarity So I actually do this build against gasless FE as well. The 8 roaches plus zerglings can easily take down a bunker/supply depot/etc. If he does a solid wall with barracks, factories, etc. then I'll just pick off a couple of buildings and then back off, they're sufficiently large that most of the marines behind the buildings can't shoot at my roaches while I kill his buildings. I'm not looking to bust up his ramp or anything, in which case I'l definitely need banelings. But I feel like breaking a flimsy wall/bunkers at the natural is fairly easy with roach/ling at low masters. Of course, I'm not sure if this works at high masters, which is why I'm asking. The main thing I'm worried about is some form of timing attack with marauder/hellion, since my lair tech is rather delayed.
Yeah, of course this'll do well enough against gasless FE, marines are horrible at downing roaches and gasless is greedy. And the roaches+speedlings are perfect at taking out marauder hellion actually--I do it with roach+slowling just fine. My point is that the lings don't add much value to the attack, or at least not enough for my taste. If you want to do roach aggression that lets you take a third, then you'll really appreciate the extra drones. If you want to bust, do it right and make it a roach-bane with reinforcing lings--that's how to kill extra greedy FE (say, the quick 3rd CC kind of greedy).
I think you may not appreciate how much damage the roaches do by themselves. The lings help, but boy, how could you say no to 8 drones when you've cut drones at 35ish while intending to macro up behind the attack? Your lings simply don't add enough value to the attack, especially due to the risk of the terran defending well.
On July 08 2012 17:22 Belial88 wrote:
^ can you show a rep of you doing this against 1 rax fe?
I'd like to see it, too. I can believe that you break the ramp, definitely, because I do the same aggression but with roaches only and I break in fairly often, but then what? I can deny the natural with just roaches, too. I occasionally get into the main with just roaches, too. 8 drones, man--the lings could get more scv kills, maybe win the game if terran is unlucky, but those 8 drones as you finish your third are just so crucial, since you already built 6-8 roaches.
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On July 08 2012 21:21 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 21:00 reapsen wrote:
[ZvT Idea / Discussion]
Hi fellow cerebrates,
i am sure that you all agree that fungaling medivacs to death is pretty inefficient in terms of infestor energy. Especially when there are a lot of stray medivacs all around. Often times the infestor energy invested to fungal these down could be used way more effective in big battles, so i started wondering...
... in the very very late game (like 20+ minutes), wouldn't it be cool to just plant down a hydralisk den and mix in around 4-5 hydralisks into your army just for the sole purpose of dpsing down medivacs in combination with a single fungal?
I know most of you will immediatly say: "But Hydras are sooo slow". Yes they are, but they are the same exact movementspeed as infestors offcreep, so you can just add them to your infestor control group.
They'll also be not even that squishy, as you should have +3 carapace around that time.
And its also not a huge investment, its only 250/250 for the HydraDen and the range upgrade + the costs for the hydras. That's easily affordable in that stage of the game, remember i am talking about the late game only.
What do you think? It's not that cool. You'll still need to fungal to pin down a medivac long enough for slow hydras to kill it, and hydra range, too. Why not just plop down two or three ITs from the extra infestor you've gotten instead of spending on hydra den+hydra range? Then you also have an extra infestor or two, arguably more lasting and effective overall. I really feel that you will always want infestors at that point, and as many as possible. Yes, hydras are theoretically useful, vs vikings and medivacs etc., but infestors are just so powerful that taking gas away from infestor spending is a big no-no, especially since BL is a common endgame choice, in which case you'll likely have corruptors floating around to help with AA. Maybe I just really like infestors, but I don't see any reason to spend gas on hydras that late. I would prefer dragging extra queens along to cutting into my infestor or BL count for a few hydras.
I wish i was a better player than i am, so that i could play around a little with the hydra mix-in in the lategame, as i still think there might be something to it. Unfortunately i am only a platinum-level player, so experimenting with it would have no real meaningfulness ;-/
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
Hydras are currently VERY cost-ineffective when compared to any other unit you can make, they are too slow and too squishy, and building Hydras just to take down Medivacs isn't worth it, when you can get more Infestors, which are far more useful, unless you like a-move armies, then build more Roaches/Lings.
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Can someone tell me the mentality of going infestor/corrupter/brolord in zvp? I don't feel like I'm playing it correctly. How many gas should I have minimum?
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On July 09 2012 03:31 andeh wrote:
Can someone tell me the mentality of going infestor/corrupter/brolord in zvp? I don't feel like I'm playing it correctly. How many gas should I have minimum?
I usually do not feel comfortable unless I am on 5 bases and all are mining gas, or if the main is mined out, 4 bases, so 8 gas gysers fully saturated should be the bare minimum if you want to keep that production, basically, you can't have enough gas to keep producing gglords, Infestors AND Corruptors. It all comes down to what units are you using as fodder, if you're using Zerglings, you should feel comfortable with 4 base gas, if you're using Roaches, then you most likely need 5 bases worth of gas.
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how can i defend +2 blink stalker all ins?
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I suck so hard against Terran.
They go mech, I expand like crazy and tech to ultralisks, noticing a heavy thor composition.
He sends BFH to all of my expands and kills 100 drones over the course of the entire game. Gets marauders. I switch to brood lords and he conjures up 15 vikings.
For the game, he makes 59 workers on three bases and easily rapes me.
I think I'm done with this game. Zerg is what I want to play, but zerg is so damn hard at this level (plat). Having to hit every inject on 7 hatcheries is impossible for me.
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Ok, I need serious help with my ZvZ .. I don't have ANY plan OR idea how to handle this matchup. I don't know which opening I should use, and which style I should play. Especially I don't have any clue how to stop aggressive Muta into Roach play, I don't know how to stop Ling Infestor styles, and I have NO freaking clue when to take my third ... PLEASE FOR GODS SAKE, somone help me ....
EDIT: Ohyeah, master player btw,
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On July 09 2012 07:30 Falcon-sw wrote:
I suck so hard against Terran.
They go mech, I expand like crazy and tech to ultralisks, noticing a heavy thor composition.
He sends BFH to all of my expands and kills 100 drones over the course of the entire game. Gets marauders. I switch to brood lords and he conjures up 15 vikings.
For the game, he makes 59 workers on three bases and easily rapes me.
I think I'm done with this game. Zerg is what I want to play, but zerg is so damn hard at this level (plat). Having to hit every inject on 7 hatcheries is impossible for me.
A few things
1) Broodlords are the proper response to a Thor-heavy composition, not Ultralisks. Thors actually fare decently well against Ultralisks. You should have done that in the reverse order and forced Vikings, lower the Thor count, and then switch to Ultralisks.
2) If he killed 100 drones, you're not defending your expansions well enough. Put down a ton of spines at all your vulnerable expansions...it'll be worth the investment, especially if he insists on sacrificing Hellions trying to do economic damage.
3) There's no way you need 7 hatcheries worth of injects, unless you're doing some sort of crazy Zergling style with multi-pronged attacks everywhere. Since you said you're plat, I'm assuming this isn't the case. Really 4-5 injected hatches is all you should need.
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Can someone tell me the mentality of going infestor/corrupter/brolord in zvp? I don't feel like I'm playing it correctly. How many gas should I have minimum?
As much as you possibly can, but at least 4, comfortably 5+. Basically, you get broodlords against a 3 base toss who is getting colossi, because if you don't have broodlords against 3+ colossi off 3 base Toss, you lose basically. The idea is to buy time using mutas to keep toss in his base so he either loses the base trade if he moves out early, and he won't straight up kill you when he could because of the base trade factor.
Recently people have been using ultra/bane in zvp to destroy the stalker/3+colossus 3 base deathpush, but this is susceptible if toss waits for templar tech, but even still, the goal is still bl/infestor against lategame toss, just getting ultras to handle what you normally couldn't handle before (3+ colossus)
my zvp guide talks about how to play it
... in the very very late game (like 20+ minutes), wouldn't it be cool to just plant down a hydralisk den and mix in around 4-5 hydralisks into your army just for the sole purpose of dpsing down medivacs in combination with a single fungal?
No. Hydralisks are not very supply efficient, so you need infestors. Mixing in 2-3 more infestors would be more practical in the lategame when saving up energy is not a big deal and you aren't trying to stall a timing. The use of hydras over infestors is solely for their timing and cost efficiency.
Feel free to try it though... I can tell you that everyone, pros, et cetera, have probably tried it out, and came to their own conclusions about hydras in zvt.
how can i defend +2 blink stalker all ins?
8:30+ roach/ling, like to hold any gateway, tech oriented timing/all-in. Hydras are great if he goes really all-in and has no sentries, you just push him all the way back to his base and kill him. Check my zvp guide in my profile, I have reps and and go in-depth about it...
I suck so hard against Terran.
They go mech, I expand like crazy and tech to ultralisks, noticing a heavy thor composition.
He sends BFH to all of my expands and kills 100 drones over the course of the entire game. Gets marauders. I switch to brood lords and he conjures up 15 vikings.
For the game, he makes 59 workers on three bases and easily rapes me.
I think I'm done with this game. Zerg is what I want to play, but zerg is so damn hard at this level (plat). Having to hit every inject on 7 hatcheries is impossible for me.
You should not get ultras against mech...
It is not unreasonable to start planting 3-10 spines at bases once you are on 4, even 3, bases against mech. Your roaches should be spread out to prevent hellions as you start massing roaches, and as you have 70+ drones, you start planting spines down.
Zerg's ability to make a worker into a spine is a great advantage we have. In lategame, zerg can mass spines for free - simply make up to 100 drones, then make 30 spines and it's all free. Don't let a runby happen twice before you realize you should plant spines down at bases when terran is clearly playing a harass/runby style.
Once I'm at about 6 queens, 6 hatches, 5 bases, and start going toward larva efficient units like pure bl/infestor armies, I stop injecting except only at my most forward base, which is where my army is probably sitting at (like my mass queens for the bl/infestor/queen death push). That's the benefit of the backspace inject method I feel - you mass queens in early game, have way more larva, and then endgame you just have these 6+ queens to really help your hive tech pushes or make your ultras efficient by transfusing them after every battle.
Ok, I need serious help with my ZvZ .. I don't have ANY plan OR idea how to handle this matchup. I don't know which opening I should use, and which style I should play. Especially I don't have any clue how to stop aggressive Muta into Roach play, I don't know how to stop Ling Infestor styles, and I have NO freaking clue when to take my third ... PLEASE FOR GODS SAKE, somone help me ....
EDIT: Ohyeah, master player btw,
I felt the same way about ling/infestor. Now, I play ling/infestor in ZvZ. It's brokenly powerful in my opinion, which is why I stopped playing 'good' and going third before lair and trying to out-macro opponents, and just derp into ling/infestor on 2 base with mass spines, then when infestors pop, take my third and start hive, ultras.
Mutas and roaches are 2 separate things. Watch your reps, if you are falling behind against mutas, it's not the roaches you have trouble with, it's muta. You beat muta play by teching to infestors asap, getting 6+ queens, and a spore in maybe the main and third, where you most think he's going to go. Some pros decide to 'counter' it by going 2 base infestor (if you go 2 base ling/infestor you basically build order counter mut aplay), some still take the quick third (which may require a few more spores and queens than if you go 2 base lair since infestors are later).
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Questions about playing safe to improve consistency
Hi all.
No doubt you are all familiar with the concept of playing safe. What I mean by playing safe is executing a build that is 100% able to hold off anything your opponent throws at you. This post isn’t about 14/14 in z v z lol. It’s about what decisions you generally make – both blindly and with certain information – in order to play a conservative, solid, safe, macro style.
I put a question at the end of each section for which I am hoping to get insightful answers. I have compiled these questions at the end to help all you gosu zergs help me out. ☺ Note – I am ~900 points masters – so pretty rubbish lol.
Z v Z
Opening.
I think 15hatch is fine in this matchup. It’s ahead against 14/14 and with perfect micro can hold off 10pool and should destroy 6-7-8 pool because drones are OP. People talk about drone scouting – what are your thoughts on this? I do not think it is necessary.
[1] Is 15 hatch safe (provided perfect micro)?
Early game
This is a hard question for me. Lately I have been finding that an early baneling nest is ESSENTIAL to be safe against all builds. There are so many early ling bling aggro builds that can just kill you if you don’t have banes (e.g. 15/15/15 18 drone mass ling all in) (e.g. 28 drone baneling-speedling all in). With the first, roaches won’t be out and with the second, roaches don’t cut it against that many banes – they’ll be in your mineral line. Even with a spine and queen, I feel a baneling nest is necessary. Of course, if you get a few defensive banes and he drones without making a unit you are behind. Is this a hit that you just have to accept? I don’t feel like there is any way to scout incoming aggression from zerg because even if you see a baneling nest, they could be defensive, and you don’t know until 10 seconds before it’s too late.
[2] Is a blind baneling nest necessary to be safe against all builds?
Early-mid game
My next general question is whether you should exert early game aggression. My feeling is that you should as a scouting method. Without it, you’re left in the dark as to what your opponent is doing. That is, even if you don’t kill your opponent or even damage his eco, if you put some pressure on with ling bling or roaches, he is going to have to respond by building units etc. He can’t straight tech to spire and catch you off-guard with mutas. I often want to drone hard and macro up, but I think as a principle in Z v Z, you should build units at around 30 drones, to put on some pressure and get some information.
[3] Is early-mid game aggression the ‘safest’ option insofar that you gain information and force units, so that you cannot be surprised by big timings?
Mid-game
The final question I have is whether you generally go ling-infestor, roach-infestor, or roach-hydra – and if it varies – on what scouting information do you make your choice? I have had success with all three – but I just choose one pretty blindly and cross my fingers – which is obviously bad. Do you think a strat is outright better on a certain map? Do you go for a hydra push if he has sick overlord spread? I am not sure how I should be making this decision.. One thought I have been having lately is that ling-bling aggression in the early game is very beneficial insofar that it provides scouting information and makes you ‘safe’ against counter ling-bling aggression. As such, perhaps ling-bling infestor is the best way to play out the mid-game (teching to ultras) because it just follows on naturally?
[4] What is the generally superior mid-game composition? If there is none, what scouting information do you use to decide your mid-game composition?
Z v P
I have less trouble with Z v P but here are my current thoughts and questions:
Opening
14pool obviously.
Early game.
I assume he’s FFEd. I have two general points that I stick by:
Warren timing - if he has no gas at his nat by 36 supply I get an early warren. I know this is pretty early, and you can hold +1 zealot 4 gate pressure with a warren but if it’s 6 gate you could very well die. What do you guys think?
[1] Is 36 Warren the correct response to no gas at P’s nat?
Overlord timing - I sac my overlord at 6:30 if he has no gas, or if he takes early gas, at 7:30. If he has no gas I want to see if it’s 6-7 gate; if he has gas the stargate or robo should well be done by 7:30.
[2] Is 6:30 OL sac (no gas at nat) or 7:30 OL sac (gas at nat) correct?
Early-mid game
What I want to discuss here is how we should spend our first 300-350 gas. I am really interested in what you guys do because we see everything. I think that generally ling speed should never be first. You only really need it against a blink stalker all-in, which comes around 10:00. Early ling speed can be good to hold stalker pokes but I don’t think it’s worth delaying your lair or upgrades.
Lair or upgrade? A lot of people go lair with their first 100 gas if they see gases at the toss nat. But is this the correct response? I think it depends also on what you scout. If you see robo, you can be sure that an immortal sentry all-in is a threat. If so, it’s coming with +1 or 1/1 and you might not have finished your upgrades in time. Doesn’t that justify getting upgrades first? Lair and roach speed should be finished in time anyway for that push.
I guess it also depends on how you want to respond to the robo. Some people are saying that drops is the answer. What do you guys think? If drops is the answer to sentry immortal, then rushing lair before upgrades is probably the answer. Thoughts? Note: if I see stargate, I use my first 100 gas on lair because obviously a hydra den, infestation pit, or spire is important to get asap.
[3] Do you spend your first 100/150 gas on lair, ling speed, or upgrades, and why? Does it depend on what you scout?
Also, I know it is often debated whether to get melee, attack or carapace. For a while I was going attack and going roach heavy, but then switched to melee and ling heavy with 3 gas (DRG style) and now I’m going carapace because you can choose whether to go roach or ling heavy later. Does anybody have insight into which upgrade you choose (based on what you scout?).
[4] What upgrade do you get first and why? Does it depend on what you scout?
Mid and late game
We have many options as soon as we see toss take a third – roach-spam, roach/ling with drops, mutas, symbol-style ultra/infestor/ling/bling, or turtle to infestor-broodlord. Do you guys think there is a superior choice? Does it depend on the map? For e.g. I love teching to Symbol-style ultras, but a quick push off 3 bases can arrive too early for me to max with the right comp. Does this mean that roach drops (for example) are generally superior because they keep the pressure on while you tech behind? Perhaps that makes mass roach drops ‘essential’ for ‘safe play’. If that is the case, that may be fine on daybreak where you can roach drop his main and pressure his third – but what do you do on cloud kingdom? Does that make spining up on cloud and going for broods the ‘correct decision’?
[5] Is there a ‘safe’ or ‘correct’ response in the mid to late game against P, depending on the map?
Z v T
To be honest I don’t really have questions for Z v T because it’s an easy matchup at the moment, lol. Haha that’s not entirely true. I’ll ask two general questions which I’ve been pondering.
Early game
First of all, I have found that on maps like Cloud Kingdom where hellions can clear the watch towers and deny map vision, a follow up two base push (e.g. stim timing) can be very potent if not scouted. That makes me think that a roach-ling-bling timing (not all-in) immediately after taking your third is desirable (when you face hellions). You will usually do damage but even if you do not you won’t be behind (imo) and you haven’t died. Thus I think this is the ‘safest’ option. Do you agree?
[1] When hellions clear your vision, particularly on certain maps, is roach aggression the ‘safe’ option?
Mid game
Secondly, what do you guys think is the correct response to mech? Roaches are obviously a common response and I fare well with them. Provided I scout mech early I will generally saturate three bases, pile on the pressure and probably doom drop his main. What I have found however is that at the upper echelons of meching terrans, (~1,100 point masters), it becomes easier for terrans to hold this kind of play. As a result I have tried to rush broods but smart terrans scan your lair constantly and as soon as they see hive they push. What do you guys think is the ‘safest’ way to play against mech?
[2] What strat should I use against mech which is the most ‘safe’ i.e. not coinflippy?
Summary of questions
Z v Z
[1] Is 15 hatch safe (provided perfect micro)?
[2] Is a blind baneling nest necessary to be safe against all builds?
[3] Is early-mid game aggression the ‘safest’ option insofar that you gain information and force units, so that you cannot be surprised by big timings?
[4] What is the generally superior mid-game composition? If there is none, what scouting information do you use to decide your mid-game composition?
Z v P
[1] Is 36 Warren the correct response to no gas at P’s nat?
[2] Is 6:30 OL sac (no gas at nat) or 7:30 OL sac (gas at nat) correct?
[3] Do you spend your first 100/150 gas on lair, ling speed, or upgrades, and why? Does it depend on what you scout?
[4] What upgrade do you get first and why? Does it depend on what you scout?
[5] Is there a ‘safe’ or ‘correct’ response in the mid to late game against P, depending on the map?
Z v T
[1] When hellions clear your vision, particularly on certain maps, is roach aggression the ‘safe’ option?
[2] What strat should I use against mech which is the most ‘safe’ i.e. not coinflippy?
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What is the best way to engage a late game protoss army? Specifically, one with a mothership+collossi+blink stalkers+chargelots?
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
ZvZ:
[1] No it is not. If he brings Drones+Spines up, you are dead. I always open up with 14 pool.
[2] Yes it is, I have died too many times to various forms of allins, I actually got so pissed off at it, I play it ultra safe and spend the first 50 gas on Bling nest.
[3] No, it is good to know what unit composition he is going for, but being an aggressive Zerg doesn't really pay off most of the times. (if he doesn't have Roaches/Infestors/Blings)
[4] Depends on the timing, late mid-game it is Roach/Hydra/Infestor or Roach/Infestor, depending on who fungals better, but on late-game, Ultralisks are the way to go.
ZvP:
[1] I do not know what "in-game time" 36 supply is, but I'd guess that's fairly early. There is no reason to panic with that early Roach Warren. And if you get that early Roach Warren, you're going to have to take gas, which means 4 less Drones in the mineral line.
[2] Both are correct, you want to check if he's going SG play, DTs, 7gate allin, immortal/sentry allin etc etc
[3] Ling speed, I want that map control and the ability to chase down the Probes who put forward Pylons (when he starts putting those down, THEN it is panic mode, as you know he's going to attack soonish)
[4] Depends what my game-plan is, if it is Muta/Ling, I'd get ling speed/+1 +1/lair, if it is Banerain, it is ling speed/bling nest/+1 +1/lair, if it is Stephano style, it is ling speed/+1/lair
[5] It all depends if he did a delayed timing push (like delayed immortal/sentry allin, which is FAR MORE powerful), basically, if you're going Stephano style and don't do any damage up to 13:00, you're fucked. You can't trade efficiently if he has 4+ Immortals. Also, it all depends what the Protoss is doing, did his allin fail? Is he going for Colossi? Is he getting a third? Is he getting a fourth?
ZvT
[1] If he goes really mass Hellion (like 8+), Roaches are a good solution to that. Roaches are in general a safe option in case you like to be aggressive and expand behind it. A good way of getting your third base.
[2] Roach timing into gglords, that's all you can do. Muta harassment gets shut down with Thors, you must delay his third AS LONG AS POSSIBLE, build shitton of Spines to negate any Hellion harassment, don't engage his main army with Lings. Use drops to backstab him, as his army is rather immobile
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Opening.
I think 15hatch is fine in this matchup. It’s ahead against 14/14 and with perfect micro can hold off 10pool and should destroy 6-7-8 pool because drones are OP. People talk about drone scouting – what are your thoughts on this? I do not think it is necessary.
[1] Is 15 hatch safe (provided perfect micro)?
You can't hold a 10 pool with perfect micro if they do a good variation. I stilll see pros do bad 10 pools, like no drones pulled or all drones pulled. Nestea did a 10 pool speedling against DRG's hatch first, and was only slightly ahead, and he never did it again, sticking to his tried and true 8 of 12 drones pulled single spine 10 pool with drone scout for hatch first.
15 hatch is not safe given the existence of 9/10/11 pool baneling or 8 of 12 drones pulled.
There are a few safe ways to play: Pool/Hatch/Gas - you are safe against 10 pools even with the hatch (watch Sniper vs Anyungprime ohana set 2 in the gsl for an example). You can also 10 drone scout hatch first, something pros like violet, stephano, and even drg does, and i've been doing it for a long time myself. It's ahead of pool/hatch, yet very safe, plus you can block hatch firsters, as well as do a much greedier gas/pool timing in reaction.
This is a hard question for me. Lately I have been finding that an early baneling nest is ESSENTIAL to be safe against all builds. There are so many early ling bling aggro builds that can just kill you if you don’t have banes (e.g. 15/15/15 18 drone mass ling all in) (e.g. 28 drone baneling-speedling all in). With the first, roaches won’t be out and with the second, roaches don’t cut it against that many banes – they’ll be in your mineral line. Even with a spine and queen, I feel a baneling nest is necessary. Of course, if you get a few defensive banes and he drones without making a unit you are behind. Is this a hit that you just have to accept? I don’t feel like there is any way to scout incoming aggression from zerg because even if you see a baneling nest, they could be defensive, and you don’t know until 10 seconds before it’s too late.
[2] Is a blind baneling nest necessary to be safe against all builds?
Need a baneling nest, probably latest safe nest is 31. Roaches can work but they cost way too much econ, so someone who sees roaches and just drones hard, will end up ahead. Not to mention, you need a baneling nest to take your third, and you can't do that with only roaches.
You don't need to scout for aggression. Just make a baneling nest and single spine and 6 lings by 31 supply. I recommend morphing 4 banes pre-emptively, but if you are really, really pro, and have an overlord out front, watch his drone count very, very intently (as your screen is always over his base, and you use hotkeys for everything at home), you don't have to morph them, just keep 4 lings at home and the other 2+ doing whatever. But I've been doing hatch first for over a year, I'm about the same level as you, and I really think making 4 pre-emptive banes is the best bet, i've lost too many games trying to cut corners at only 2-3 banes or none at all. Once you figure it out yourself, you can cut the pre-emptive banes... but yea, by 31 you need a bane, spine, and 6 lings.
I'd really just recommend taking 1 drone off gas after speed, and getting nest, spine, 6 lings after that (about 26-28).
That will keep you completely safe against anything.
My next general question is whether you should exert early game aggression. My feeling is that you should as a scouting method. Without it, you’re left in the dark as to what your opponent is doing. That is, even if you don’t kill your opponent or even damage his eco, if you put some pressure on with ling bling or roaches, he is going to have to respond by building units etc. He can’t straight tech to spire and catch you off-guard with mutas. I often want to drone hard and macro up, but I think as a principle in Z v Z, you should build units at around 30 drones, to put on some pressure and get some information.
[3] Is early-mid game aggression the ‘safest’ option insofar that you gain information and force units, so that you cannot be surprised by big timings?
I'd only recommend aggression if you see the opponent not take gas with your drone scout - if you drone scout, that is. Things like 4 queen is bad because you just focus his hatch down with lings made after 30+ (imo).
Making lings is really costly, it's sooo many drones and banes stop them so hard. Baneling nest is just super standard in zvz early game, and that right there is all it takes to end any sort of aggression.
But those 6 lings you made, you can scout with the 2 you didn't make into pre-emptive banes, or 3, or whatever.
A ling scout at 30+ is standard, and yea, you can go for aggression if you say, see no gas, or no spine made with overlord.
Mid-game
The final question I have is whether you generally go ling-infestor, roach-infestor, or roach-hydra – and if it varies – on what scouting information do you make your choice? I have had success with all three – but I just choose one pretty blindly and cross my fingers – which is obviously bad. Do you think a strat is outright better on a certain map? Do you go for a hydra push if he has sick overlord spread? I am not sure how I should be making this decision.. One thought I have been having lately is that ling-bling aggression in the early game is very beneficial insofar that it provides scouting information and makes you ‘safe’ against counter ling-bling aggression. As such, perhaps ling-bling infestor is the best way to play out the mid-game (teching to ultras) because it just follows on naturally?
[4] What is the generally superior mid-game composition? If there is none, what scouting information do you use to decide your mid-game composition?
Personally, I think ling/infestor is stupidly broken powerful in ZvZ, and macro and third timing no longer matter because it's just stupidly fucking strong. It's a 2 base lair play, look at blade55555's guide on it. Standard play though is third at 50, then roach warren, lair at 55+, secure third with 2+ banes, and get roaches as necessary to hold an all-in, then scout with overseer to see what the opponent is doing, if you didnt figure out already (like him taking 2 gas at nat = lair, mutas or infestors). As long as you rule out a roach/ling hatch tech all-in, you are safe to take a third (its obvious, he isnt going lair or third himself, no extra gases, he made roaches before third, etc).
in standard play its max out on roach/hydra and then get infestors though. but ultras are really becoming the hot thing in the metagame.
You can't really make a composition, its based on how you open. Ie 2 bas elair infestor, then ling/infestor spine into ultras. 2 base muta can transition into anything though, hive or roach based, but if you go 3 base it's roach/hydra into infestors at max, unless the opponent goes 2 base muta/infestor, in which case you go infestors obviously first.
Z v P
[1] Is 36 Warren the correct response to no gas at P’s nat?
[2] Is 6:30 OL sac (no gas at nat) or 7:30 OL sac (gas at nat) correct?
[3] Do you spend your first 100/150 gas on lair, ling speed, or upgrades, and why? Does it depend on what you scout?
[4] What upgrade do you get first and why? Does it depend on what you scout?
[5] Is there a ‘safe’ or ‘correct’ response in the mid to late game against P, depending on the map?
1. That sounds a little early, it's more like 6:30 roach warren
2. its more like 7:00+, and into main, and poke in with overlord at nat but dont lose it (or lose it, whatever)
3. lair, unless the opponent has no gas at nat, in which case it's speed. upgrade is last, and wont be out in time against a gateway all-in except maybe immortal/sentry if you made it early
4. its up to you. melee for lings and better lategame utility, missile is probably the most imminently useful since roaches scale well with upgrades, carapace benefits both lings and roaches but it's costly and if toss is upgrading it wont matter since toss will be ahead in upgrades so its not good if they are doing a +1/+2 timing.
5. roach/ling after 8:30 (or 8:00, depending how good your macro is) until you figure out what's going on. The more raoches you make, the more aggression you can do and safer you can be against timings, but much worse you will be going into lategame, that you might just get rolled by colossi before your hive is ready so its a balance. you MUST make an overseer when lair is done to see if toss has 1-5 gates for an expand build, or 6+ gates for an all-in, so you can react accordingly.
Z v T
[1] When hellions clear your vision, particularly on certain maps, is roach aggression the ‘safe’ option?
[2] What strat should I use against mech which is the most ‘safe’ i.e. not coinflippy?
1. Not really... that doesn't make sense. Roaches are really all-in to make in any match-up before taking your third. You should be using overlord scouting to make sure nothing funny is going on, I recommend always sac'cing an overlord in zvt at 40+ supply to see what terrans' followup is to his expansion.
2. Mass roaches on 3 base and get infestor tech, overseer scout to make sure he isn't building lots of tanks (lots of tanks = heavy mech aggression that will kill you if you go hive or infestors). Get broodlords. Roach drops is also really strong, if you are into that sort of thing. personally I find just walking roaches more than good to trade against a mech player massing thors and not making tanks, but whatever. It's a trade off, more roaches = later broodlords which you NEED against a 3 base mech push, less roaches = more susceptible to tank heavy 2 base pushes or even 3 base.
Check my profile for my guides. Almost all of these questions are answered in them.
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EPT
